Clown Mass

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I am assured that the N.O./O.F. Mass is technically valid. That wasn’t my point.

My point is that is that it has attracted changes, novelties and sometimes abuses that cause Roman Catholics to wonder whether it is or not. **That is to say, they are scandalised. **

It’s funny-ironic to have two ‘Easterners’; Bishop Basil (Orthodox) and Fr. Brendan (Melkite Catholic) defending the New Order of the Latin Mass to distressed Roman Catholics.

I believe I can see a slow attrition taking place in the parishes I’m familiar with. Laid-back Masses + laid back clergy = laid-back congregation. This leads to a vocation crisis; **if we’re all seemingly saved, if we’re ‘celebrating’ all the time, who needs to be a priest? **

This in turn can lead to one priest per parish, then none; he has to focus on the externalities of parish life and has no time for personal prayer, solitude, contemplation. He has to ‘celebrate’ funerals, for example, where the focus is on his person all the time. He feels he’s at the mercy of his Bishop and congregation; dare he then try to learn and introduce the impersonal, quiet Latin Mass in the midst of his busy schedule of meetings, visitations and counselling?

Cue a ‘problem with his vocation’ down the line.

It grieves me that, in the absence of a motivated Bishop (or the presence of a progressive one), Darwinism may take care of the problem of Latin Mass provision in many dioceses.
 
Layman said:
I am assured that the N.O./O.F. Mass is technically valid. That wasn’t my point.

My point is that is that it has attracted changes, novelties and sometimes abuses that cause Roman Catholics to wonder whether it is or not. **That is to say, they are scandalised. **

It’s funny-ironic to have two ‘Easterners’; Bishop Basil (Orthodox) and Fr. Brendan (Melkite Catholic) defending the New Order of the Latin Mass to distressed Roman Catholics.
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I could not have said this better myself. It is indeed ironic that those who have reverent liturgies should come to the defense of these abuses and basically tell us that they are OK. One wonders how a Praise and Worship band playing semi-protestant music would go over in there parishes. Somehow, I do not think it would be tolerated. I cannot see any of those parishoners having to leave their local geographic parish to drive 25 miles one way to attend a reverent NO parish because their local parish was more like a Southern Baptist church with vestments. The Mass may be licit and valid but the liturgical practices are anything but.
 
\It is indeed ironic that those who have reverent liturgies should come to the defense of these abuses and basically tell us that they are OK.\

**Please tell me what abuse/s I have defended. Be specific.

This is the SECOND time I’ve asked you this, even if not necessarily on this thread.

I will summarize what I’ve said before: Saying that something is NOT among the four defects that make a mass invalid is NOT the same thing as saying it is acceptable, much less good in itself.

For example, a priest might be forced by circumstances to celebrate with ratty vestments, stained linens, and a bent chalice with most of the interior plating worn away. These things do NOT make the Sacrifice invalid–but nobody is saying they are good…

As far as “praise bands”, the Melkite parish in London apparently has some kind of orchestra that plays at the Divine Liturgy. I will admit I’m bewildered at exactly how it would fit in.

And can you tell me what is it about the music that makes a given piece “protestant” or “semi-protestant”? In my years of study for a BME and MME and organ, this is not something that was covered**
 
Bishop, there are sins of commission and sins of omission, right? No, you did not specifically defend an abuse but by stating that these Masses were valid, the implication is that we should not be horrified by the sight of huge manikins/puppets or appalled by the sight of diaphonous gowned dancers wafting bowls of incense a’la a Cecil B. DeMille epic.

Protestant or semi-protestant music is that which I can watch and hear any Sunday morning on TV as broadcast from any of mega-churches replete with that praise band, rolling arpeggios on the keyboard, hand waving, etc. The lyrics are anything but Catholic. Our old choir director called it “Muppet Music” and opined that if you can envision Kermit and Miss Piggy singing it…
 
The only mass that seems good to me is the traditional Latin mass.
 
before some days i have view the video of clown mass and it was too different and heretical atrocity.words can not describe how I feel a priest is allowed to make a mockery out of the sacrifice of jesus christ. I am speechless and horrified after watching the video.
 
\Bishop, there are sins of commission and sins of omission, right? No, you did not specifically defend an abuse but by stating that these Masses were valid, the implication is that we should not be horrified by the sight of huge manikins/puppets or appalled by the sight of diaphonous gowned dancers wafting bowls of incense a’la a Cecil B. DeMille epic.\

**

Why should I jump up and down on what you consider horrible abuse?

You’re doing quite well by yourself.

In any case, believing it was better to light one candle than to curse the darkeness, I suggested a positive solution in my thread “Clown mass revisited,” which you turned into an opportunity to launch a personal attack against me, though you knew nothing of my musical background.

**
 
Layman said:
I am assured that the N.O./O.F. Mass is technically valid. That wasn’t my point.

My point is that is that it has attracted changes, novelties and sometimes abuses that cause Roman Catholics to wonder whether it is or not. **That is to say, they are scandalised. **

It’s funny-ironic to have two ‘Easterners’; Bishop Basil (Orthodox) and Fr. Brendan (Melkite Catholic) defending the New Order of the Latin Mass to distressed Roman Catholics.

I believe I can see a slow attrition taking place in the parishes I’m familiar with. Laid-back Masses + laid back clergy = laid-back congregation. This leads to a vocation crisis; **if we’re all seemingly saved, if we’re ‘celebrating’ all the time, who needs to be a priest? **

This in turn can lead to one priest per parish, then none; he has to focus on the externalities of parish life and has no time for personal prayer, solitude, contemplation. He has to ‘celebrate’ funerals, for example, where the focus is on his person all the time. He feels he’s at the mercy of his Bishop and congregation; dare he then try to learn and introduce the impersonal, quiet Latin Mass in the midst of his busy schedule of meetings, visitations and counselling?

Cue a ‘problem with his vocation’ down the line.

It grieves me that, in the absence of a motivated Bishop (or the presence of a progressive one), Darwinism may take care of the problem of Latin Mass provision in many dioceses.
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I am also surprised that no one picked up on another even more serious abuse in the video than the ridiculous puppets distracting from Our Lord’s sacrifice. At the end of the Mass, the presider, instead of using the charism bestowed upon him at ordination (“Whatever these hands bless, let them be blessed”) and saying “May Almighty God Bless you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost”, uses his own free-form and heretical-leaning “May we bless ourselves in the Name of the …” and then he makes up substitute synonyms for the Persons of the Blessed Trinity.

I say heretical-leaning because the belief that we are the clergy and priests is an error adhered to by several Protestant denominations who deny the need for Holy Orders to perform heretofore priestly functions. It is interesting that we are abhorred by the ridiculousness of the spectacle but are not as affected to comment on the omission of the Final blessing of the priest.

He appeared to use the proper formula for the Consecration but I would doubt that the fat piece of what appeared to be banana bread was unleavened.
 
giuseppeTO said:
I am also surprised that no one picked up on another even more serious abuse in the video than the ridiculous puppets distracting from Our Lord’s sacrifice. At the end of the Mass, the presider, instead of using the charism bestowed upon him at ordination (“Whatever these hands bless, let them be blessed”) and saying “May Almighty God Bless you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost”, uses his own free-form and heretical-leaning “May we bless ourselves in the Name of the …” and then he makes up substitute synonyms for the Persons of the Blessed Trinity.
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Since I did not see the video, did he use the Creator , Redeemer and Sanctifier, or something else?
 
There was a local priest who said childrens masses with a duck hand puppet. I always felt it was being disrespectful to the ocassion. It had even made the local papers. This was about 10 years ago or so.
 
jericho777 said:
There was a local priest who said childrens masses with a duck hand puppet. I always felt it was being disrespectful to the ocassion. It had even made the local papers. This was about 10 years ago or so.
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WHY? What was the point?

Back in the 60’-early 80’s when “chidren’s church” with puppets and other entertainments were offered during the regular worship, I wondered just what effect it would have on Protestant services 30 years hence. (They might call it Verse Varmint, but the children knew it was really Cookie Monster.)

Now, with mega-churches, we see the result.
 
bpbasilphx said:
WHY? What was the point?

Back in the 60’-early 80’s when “chidren’s church” with puppets and other entertainments were offered during the regular worship, I wondered just what effect it would have on Protestant services 30 years hence. (They might call it Verse Varmint, but the children knew it was really Cookie Monster.)

Now, with mega-churches, we see the result.
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I think it’s one thing to talk to kids about Jesus with a puppet but saying mass with a puppet seems not right. Maybe it’s just me. The same goes for a clown mass or service it just desen’t seem right. I feel there should some reverence shown for the occasion. IMHO
 
jericho777 said:
I think it’s one thing to talk to kids about Jesus with a puppet but saying mass with a puppet seems not right. Maybe it’s just me. The same goes for a clown mass or service it just desen’t seem right. I feel there should some reverence shown for the occasion. IMHO
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**I’ve never disagreed with that.

I will say here what some people seem to be missing elsewhere:

Traditionalism includes celebrating the Holy Liturgy in whatever form and rite in the most beautiful manner possible according to the norms.

This is what I’m trying to urge.**
 
jericho777 said:
I think it’s one thing to talk to kids about Jesus with a puppet but saying mass with a puppet seems not right. Maybe it’s just me. The same goes for a clown mass or service it just desen’t seem right. I feel there should some reverence shown for the occasion. IMHO
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As beauty is to the eye of the beholder, so is reverence. I wouldn’t attend these services either but that’s not the point. Who are we really to tell them the services we attend are more reverent than theirs? If they’re sincere in their worship to God, then so be it. If they’re not, there’s a place for that too. 😉
 
When I was younger (about 4) my God father signed me up for Sunday school. Well, I was pretty excited to go but once I got to the door the teacher told me that we were going to watch a movie about Jesus. I thought that sounded great. Then she further described it as being like Sesame Street - big puppets and slapstick comedy? I was immediately turned off and ran down the street. My God father was very upset and pleaded with me to return. I did not want to watch this video! I guess I was always wary of Vatican II.
 
I was kidding. I didn’t realise that every post must be 100 % serious. No room for sarcasm. But if you want to analyze this further… children do have a sense of right and wrong. Maybe God sent me running away so I would not be tarnished, unlike some people that escaped and found refuge in Protestant cults.
 
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