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bpbasilphx
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I noticed you gave no names, places, dates–or even LINK for that matter.
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Layman
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- People generally do not bring cameras to Masses.
- 99.999% of O.F. masses are not currently done as envisaged by Paul VI; with Latin, chant and the priest ad-orientem.
People want holiness. **The Mass should be solemn, formalised and with the mundane kept firmly outside the sanctuary. **
I think the Roman Catholic Church had something like a mid-life crisis in the 60’s; it tried to get trendy, when it should have stuck to the tried-and-tested.
3. Anyone else think that people having to argue for the basic validity of a Mass is the biggest sign that something is fundamentally wrong?
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aicirt
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Yes. This would never have happened in the 1950s. I can’t even imagine it. The clown Masses have happened. Shocking. I never would have thought Notre Dame would have disobeyed its bishop and entertained and honor Obama. That led to the information that the college has allowed many performances of The Vagina Monologues. If you google it, you’ll see that there are many other Catholic institutions which have permitted the showing of that play which, 40 years ago, would have been immediately recognized as improper and an occasion of sin.
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malphono
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This is just my opinion, but unless the play (actually any play – even if it were Hamlet) was performed as part of a Mass, I really don’t see what it has to do with this thread. Actually, I don’t see what any of the above quote has to do with this thread.
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pnewton
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Yes. something is dreadfully wrong that Catholics disparage the validity of the Mass and put their brothers into the posiion of having to defend the Faith against fellow Catholics. It is the greatest shame that I see coming from some on the more extreme traditionalist camps. There is indeed something fundamentally wrong when such Catholics turn into virtual anticatholics in order to be more Catholic than the Pope.
No one would have ever defended the validity of the Mass had it not been ruthlessly attacked from within.
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pnewton
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I think this is the best advice one can give in such an extreme situation as the OP outlined. Keep fighting the good fight. Don’t jump ship.
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ibkc
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It’s here:
youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU
This mass happened at a Call To Action conference in 2008.
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Brenda_V
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I do have to say that just because I have never witnessed a Clown Mass does not mean one has not happened but, the pictures given looked more like a Mass for Clowns, just like the Blue Mass held here annually for all of our Police forces from Sheriff offices to Police department and other safety personnel, Prison Guards, Firefighters, EMTs etc., these men and women dress in their uniforms for the Mass so I can see where if there is a Mass for Clowns that they would dress as a clown.
Also, any abuses I have seen were at least 10 years ago but I don’t travel much any more so I don’t go to Mass outside of my own Parish which is blessedly very orthodox.
Brenda V.
brother, I know you have seen things I have never seen in Masses - I have seen minor abuses and only once have I seen liturgical dance as part of a Mass and that was way back in 1974 and there was only one girl doing it.
Also, any abuses I have seen were at least 10 years ago but I don’t travel much any more so I don’t go to Mass outside of my own Parish which is blessedly very orthodox.
Brenda V.
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sidbrown
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Here is a link to a puppet Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop:
youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU&feature=related
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bpbasilphx
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\People want holiness. The Mass should be solemn, formalised and with the mundane kept firmly outside the sanctuary.\
I will not deny that the Eucharistic Sacrifice should be celebrated seriously and prayerfully. But this is a problem as old as 1 Corinthians 11.
\3. Anyone else think that people having to argue for the basic validity of a Mass is the biggest sign that something is fundamentally wrong?\
**What is fundamentally wrong is the argument that this, that, or the other lapse–or merely what a person might not happen to like–automatically makes a mass invalid.
I’ve seen this kind of post too many times on the Traditional Catholicism and Liturgy and Sacraments fora with such an outlandish claim.
There are only FOUR DEFECTS that make a Mass invalid. NOT ONE of the lapses complained about, singly or in combination, are one of those 4 defects, and hence they would not make the mass invalid.
For convenience I will list the four defects here:
Do clowns make a mass invalid? No.
Do puppets make a mass invalid? No.
Does ad libbing things make a mass invalid? Not of it does not adversely affect the form.
Does an extra-thick or extra-big host made of flour and water (and even with yeast) make a mass invalid? No.
Does forgetting the Gloria or Creed make a mass invalid? No.
Does adding a Hail Mary make a mass invalid? No.
Do dancers make a mass invalid? No.
Are all these things good in themselves? No, that doesn’t follow at all.
I’m not saying that deliberate and flagrant violations of the liturgical norms are not bad. But they should be dealt with by the proper authority in the Diocese, which is the Bishop. And this means that the occasional vistor to a parish he usually avoids should not be a talebearer to the Bishop.
Validity is one thing. Licitness is another. Too often zealous but uninstructed faithful don’t get the difference. **
I will not deny that the Eucharistic Sacrifice should be celebrated seriously and prayerfully. But this is a problem as old as 1 Corinthians 11.
\3. Anyone else think that people having to argue for the basic validity of a Mass is the biggest sign that something is fundamentally wrong?\
**What is fundamentally wrong is the argument that this, that, or the other lapse–or merely what a person might not happen to like–automatically makes a mass invalid.
I’ve seen this kind of post too many times on the Traditional Catholicism and Liturgy and Sacraments fora with such an outlandish claim.
There are only FOUR DEFECTS that make a Mass invalid. NOT ONE of the lapses complained about, singly or in combination, are one of those 4 defects, and hence they would not make the mass invalid.
For convenience I will list the four defects here:
- Lack of minister (Not a bishop or priest)
- Lack of matter
- Lack of form
- Lack of intention
Do clowns make a mass invalid? No.
Do puppets make a mass invalid? No.
Does ad libbing things make a mass invalid? Not of it does not adversely affect the form.
Does an extra-thick or extra-big host made of flour and water (and even with yeast) make a mass invalid? No.
Does forgetting the Gloria or Creed make a mass invalid? No.
Does adding a Hail Mary make a mass invalid? No.
Do dancers make a mass invalid? No.
Are all these things good in themselves? No, that doesn’t follow at all.
I’m not saying that deliberate and flagrant violations of the liturgical norms are not bad. But they should be dealt with by the proper authority in the Diocese, which is the Bishop. And this means that the occasional vistor to a parish he usually avoids should not be a talebearer to the Bishop.
Validity is one thing. Licitness is another. Too often zealous but uninstructed faithful don’t get the difference. **
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Frbrendan
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I looked at this link. As per Bp. Basil’s post, this was still a valid Mass. If I had been there would I have liked it? No, but then I don’t like Martha Graham type dance, I am terrified of clowns (it’s a phobia) and I don’t particularly like glass jelly jar type chalices. I doubt it would have been edifying for me, but I didn’t hear the homily, which can turn the most beautiful Divine Liturgy into a ho-hum one, and it can make a puppet/dance Mass into a great one. The idea that I am trying to get across is that:
- If it isn’t your home parish or diocese, don’t complain. Unless it is invalid, which was covered in a post by Bp. Basil (see inset quote below)
So if it’s not your home parish or diocese, be quiet. Remember, the meek shall inherit the earth. A strident complaint won’t do you any good.
- If it is your home parish–you should have talked to the priest long ago, before it got to this level–but first, talk to the priest, and then, only if the priest continues his actions, contact the bishop,
- Pray. Ask God to change hearts, and don’t be surprised if the first heart He works on is yours. Then he might change priests, bishops, whatever. But He will probably start with you.
- Become an Eastern Catholic. Then you be able to enjoy going to Church again.
- If you don’t want your heart changed, just the circumstances, then walk out in a big huff, making a lot of noise, and miss the opportunity for Christ to come into your heart; then waste 10 gallons of gas (@$2.65 a gallon) driving to the next diocese over, or finding a Mass that suits you.
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sidbrown
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The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches do not seem to have this problem with many pop type Masses that appear profane to many people.
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ibkc
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I thought about it, but the nearest Eastern parishes are a bit too far for us to get to on a regular basis. Fortunately, there is a traditional Latin Rite parish staffed by the FSSP within a 30 minute drive and that is now our home.
- Become an Eastern Catholic. Then you be able to enjoy going to Church again.
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Brendan
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Fr. Brendan,
The faithful have recieved instrucitions from the Holy See that are contrary to your advise.
Redemptionis Sacramentum
We have a serious duty to see that the Blessed Mysteries are treated with such respect as they deserve.
We are called, in fact, even bound under duty, to lodge such complaints as necessary with the local ordinary, or even to the Holy See.
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Frbrendan
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Okay, I apologize. If the Pope says it is your duty, then do your duty. But pay attention to the last part of the quote from the Holy See.
Too many times I have seen someone on the Traditional Catholic fora let fly with incidents that they inflate into “abuses.” But have they told the local Ordinary? Are we hearing this complaint in truth and charity? I point no fingers, nor do I call anyone to judgment. That is not my job. My job is to pray. This is also the duty of every Catholic, Roman or Eastern; clergy or laity; traditionalist or liberal. My own personal feeling is that if more people spent time in prayer, there might be a bit less worrying about “abuse.”
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brotherhrolf
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Father, how does one tell one’s bishop that one objects to the crystal chalices, carafes, diaphonous gowns, bowls of incense, rock music ad nauseam?
“Gee, Bishop, I am an ex-cathedral chorister and I really did not like seeing the…”
Father, my bishop “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. The chancellor of the diocese published a really nasty editorial in the diocesan newspaper about how “none of us want the Latin Mass”. We have one Low Mass on Sunday in my diocese. Low Mass was for 6am. I served an awful lot of them. I grew up with a Missa Cantata .
These are not mere “incidents”. They are symptomatic of what has happened since 1967. The Eastern Church does not suffer from them.
“Gee, Bishop, I am an ex-cathedral chorister and I really did not like seeing the…”
Father, my bishop “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. The chancellor of the diocese published a really nasty editorial in the diocesan newspaper about how “none of us want the Latin Mass”. We have one Low Mass on Sunday in my diocese. Low Mass was for 6am. I served an awful lot of them. I grew up with a Missa Cantata .
These are not mere “incidents”. They are symptomatic of what has happened since 1967. The Eastern Church does not suffer from them.
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Frbrendan
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Forgive me if I am sounding legalistic. I am trying to listen and hear what you are saying.
I agree that some of the changes made since 1967 have been for the worse. I heartily agree with you about crystal chalices, etc. However, there is a way to tell the bishop about your feelings without sounding like a whiney kid.
As the receiver of a Catholic education, I am sure that your grasp of the English language is good enough to talk to the bishop in a serious way. Make an appointment, set out some notes for yourself on index cards and speak in a loving and charitable manner. Any hint of, “I can’t believe you pulled that dumb stunt…” will be enough to get your plea deemed irrelevant or worse. Before you go, pray that God will give you a meek spirit, and that He give the bishop an open heart.
Going a step further, politely ask other more traditional minded Catholics in the parish and/or diocese to do the same thing, make an appointment with the bishop, and so on. I am willing to bet that the bishop has received four or five letters a year about abuses, with a sprinkling more for something really egregious. If ten or twenty or a hundred made an appointment with him, he would see that this really is an issue that he must take up. If the chancellor receives 100 letters every week with solid reasons why you need a Latin Mass, then maybe something would happen. Finally, remember that there is a pastoral structure above the bishop here in America, and his metropolitan/archbishop/council can make a bishop toe the line, if they think that something is going on. And you can always appeal to Rome.
Above all, though, pray. I mentioned Bp. O’Brien before, and what prayers had done about him. One of the things that he was against was the Latin Mass. With Bp. Olmsted, there is a E.F. parish in Phoenix, with a reasonable time on Sunday as well.
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malphono
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I wish that were true, but as I’ve said [post=6088221]before[/post] in this thread, it’s not quite so.
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sidbrown
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I don;t see where it does any good to tell the bishop if he is the one who is celebrating the Mass.
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Frbrendan
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However, what I have been saying is that you pray. Pray that God change the heart of the bishop or change the bishop. This is allowed. If you pray, and all the other people that feel what the bishop is doing is wrong pray as well, God will answer. It happened in Phoenix, and it can happen where you are, as well.
Quoting myself from earlier in this thread:
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