Clown Mass

[malphono]

Pish-tosh and pooh-pooh me all you want. I saw those with my own eyes. These were not urban legends nor were any of the Masses well publicized at a certain parish in Minneapolis. Just because you have not seen any of these abuses does not mean that they do not exist.

Very very true. I’ve seen my share of “liturgical” horrors too (a few of which I noted in another [post=4751637]thread][/post] a while back).

It stands to reason that they are never well-publicized.Even I would be surprised to see something like we are pleased to announce that next Sunday there will be special noon Mass featuring pizza, balloons, and clowns for the children in a normal parish bulletin or in the local newspaper. The perpetrators won’t generally publicize something like that. They’d just do it.

It seems that perhaps the frequency of such aberrations has decreased over the past few years (they were, contrary to what many “spirit of Vatican II” people will say, legion from the late '60s to the early '80s and – thankfully – seem to have tapered downward in a more serious way since 2005) but they do still exist. There was, as I recall, a “liturgical” circus in Vienna a year or 2 ago.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I never said conspiracy. However, these photos are often undocumented here. As said earlier, many of these pictures are outside of the context of the Mass and in one instance in which the documentation was traced back to the source a few years ago, was an Episcopal ceremony. As far as the pope/clown picture, that has not documentation. In absence of such, it has no meaning. These photos are often no more than a type Rosharch tests that reveal only the person making comments on it, not the state of the Church. More information is read into them that is available from them.

BTW - No one here is pro-Clown Masses. I really do not understand why it keeps being brought up as if it proves something.

No, no one here is pro-Clown Masses. But I think you miss the point, my friend. The clown Mass issue stands in place of all that has happened since 1967. There are “polka Masses” and “Mariachi Masses”. Deo gratias ite Deo gratias there are no Cajun “chank a chank” Masses. One hundred years ago no one would have thought about bringing dance hall music into church.

As an anthropologist, the Clown Mass is not an urban legend but a symbol of what has happened in the last 40 years.

 

[Cristiano]

…As an anthropologist, the Clown Mass is not an urban legend but a symbol of what has happened in the last 40 years.

A symbol of what?

 

[brotherhrolf]

A symbol of what?

A symbol of the massive changes we have seen in the last 42 years.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

I never said conspiracy. However, these photos are often undocumented here. As said earlier, many of these pictures are outside of the context of the Mass and in one instance in which the documentation was traced back to the source a few years ago, was an Episcopal ceremony. As far as the pope/clown picture, that has not documentation. In absence of such, it has no meaning. These photos are often no more than a type Rosharch tests that reveal only the person making comments on it, not the state of the Church. More information is read into them that is available from them.

BTW - No one here is pro-Clown Masses. I really do not understand why it keeps being brought up as if it proves something.

I agree with your comments. I also don’t know about any “conspiracy,” but from the depressingly periodic “clown Mass” threads that keep getting posted here, I would certainly say that there are posters here in touch with their “inner Jack Chick” insofar as their disrespect for and desire to mock, denigrate, undermine, and cast aspersions on the Ordinary Form of the Mass and for that matter Vatican II. Whether or not there is documentation, the “Pope/clown” picture shows the Holy Father dressed in his ordinary cassock meeting a clown in costume. So what? He’s not dressed for liturgy, and there are lots of pictures of popes meeting soccer teams, for example. So does that become a “soccer Mass?”

You are absolutely correct in that the postings on this topic say much more about the posters than about the Mass. Somehow, one or two “clown Masses” – assuming such in a Catholic setting can even be proven – trump the thousands of reverent and correct OF Masses said each day, each weekend, in the minds of these posters - the same mindset behind phrases such as “NO priests” and “NO parishes,” as if the Ordinary Form of the Mass were some aberrant sect.

 

[Frbrendan]

Pish-tosh and pooh-pooh me all you want. I saw those with my own eyes. These were not urban legends nor were any of the Masses well publicized at a certain parish in Minneapolis. Just because you have not seen any of these abuses does not mean that they do not exist.

I am not saying that liturgical abuse does not happen. But that does not mean that the majority–over 99%–of Novus Ordo Masses are done with all reverence due to the matter, the Sacrifice of the Mass, with the confection of the Eucharist as the high point. Should one stop eating eggs because one egg that was cracked was spoiled?

Let’s even go a step further. Should one call all of the Popes since Innocent VIII invalid because the next Pope was the infamous Borgia, Alexander VI? I’ve not seen any sedevacantist group claiming that!

But the pictures that I have seen so far are, well, dubious. Just because a priest (or a Pope) is holding a large host does not make it a sugar cookie. And because there are pictures of clowns in a church, it does not make it a clown Mass.

I would say, though, that if a couple of professional clowns wanted to get married in clown makeup and clothes, I would sincerely try to change their minds. If they want to be clowns at the reception, that’s fine, but if I were the priest celebrating their nuptial Mass, they would not wear clown makeup during the Mass.

 

[vz71]

I would say, though, that if a couple of professional clowns wanted to get married in clown makeup and clothes, I would sincerely try to change their minds. If they want to be clowns at the reception, that’s fine, but if I were the priest celebrating their nuptial Mass, they would not wear clown makeup during the Mass.

Agreements.
But I have one interesting thought.

I have on a few occasions gone to daily Mass. This Mass is at noon every day, so of course it is right in the middle of the regular work day.

I go there straight fom work, and then go to lunch and back to work.

I am at Mass with my work clothes on. I have my shirt, tie, and badge for work on.
I look around the church and I have seen plumbers, electricians, and mechanics as well. All are dressed as they would be for work. All have taken the time out of their lunch hour to be with our God.

So what would happen if the circus were in town?

Actually I should note there have been occasions when the Doctor and nurse are in the crowd for daily Mass as well. And the looks of some of the scrubs that come out of the pediatric ward would make one wonder.

 

[bpbasilphx]

My own interpretation of the pictures posted by Michael Daniels, going from the top down and right to left:

1. The Priest is clearly not dressed as a clown, no matter what you think of his vestments. And do two clowns receiving communion a clown mass make, when nobody else in the picture is so habited?
2. This looks like nothing more than a thick large host to me.
3. The pope here is not even VESTED for Mass! How is this a “clown mass”?
4. Are the clergy vested in red clowns? And I see no sugar cookies.
5. Apparently, the Priest is sitting while the singers finish their Offertory or possibly Communion hymn. So far as I know, this is permitted by the rubrics. Again, no clowns or sugar cookies visible.

===========

Next batch:

1. and 2. The Pope and Priest are clearly holding up large hosts. Nothing to suggest they are sugar cookies, and there are no clowns.
2. While juggling in church might not be proper, there’s nothing here to suggest it is at mass. But don’t forget the story of the Juggler of Notre Dame. I’m not too sure why there would be both a Paschal candle and a Christmas tree–that puzzles me more.
3. These are either habited religious standing at their conventual mass, or a concelebration. No clowns or sugar cookies.
4. A woman in alb and stole is clearly not a Catholic priest, so this is not a mass.
5. According to someone who posted earlier, the dancing was NOT during Mass. But these are not clowns, and there are no sugar cookies.

Finally, I went to your blog. If you think you’re the last bastion of traditionalism, you need a serious attitude adjustment.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I just another look at the picture of the clergy in red–and noticed the skull.

I’ve seen this before. This is the Holy Friday Liturgy (by definition, NOT a mass) somewhere in Germany; Koeln, I think… Red is the modern Latin use for that day.

Don’t forget that Calvary/Golgotha means “Place of the Skull.”

 

[Morgan_Hiver]

I’ve never seen any of this either but I am sure it exists. Just look at that “PUNK ROCK” Priest - Father Bob. He has crazy colour hair trying to demonstrate his individuality. He drives a muscle car. It’s really goofy because he’s in his 40s and looks more like that over eater Guy Fieri from Diners, Drive-in’s and Dives than a punk. I don’t want to get into too many details on how he isn’t punk but come on…why would I want to go to mass led by Guy Fieri? Do kids really buy into this? What about adults?

 

[MikeDunphy]

I can identify at least two of the churches in question, but apparently it is against the forum rules to name names. Both are Roman Catholic churches; one is a picture from a Good Friday service, the other is the stations of the cross. Neither is a Mass, but both are public worship in Church.

Here is a bit of goofiness that is from a Mass:
youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8

I personally have never seen a clown Mass. I have seen a priest and a nun alternate saying the priest’s part of the Mass. Abuses do occur, but fortunately the worst abuses are rare. Hopefully the risk of public exposure will make them even rarer.

I never said conspiracy. However, these photos are often undocumented here. As said earlier, many of these pictures are outside of the context of the Mass and in one instance in which the documentation was traced back to the source a few years ago, was an Episcopal ceremony. As far as the pope/clown picture, that has not documentation. In absence of such, it has no meaning. These photos are often no more than a type Rosharch tests that reveal only the person making comments on it, not the state of the Church. More information is read into them that is available from them.

BTW - No one here is pro-Clown Masses. I really do not understand why it keeps being brought up as if it proves something.

 

[pnewton]

Finally, I went to your blog. If you think you’re the last bastion of traditionalism, you need a serious attitude adjustment.

I too went to the blog. It was nicely laid out with decent articles, but hardly the last of traditionalists. Still, in a blog a little poetic license is almost to be expected, as long as one does not take oneself too seriously.

 

[pnewton]

Here is a bit of goofiness that is from a Mass:
youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8
.

I agree. If I had to deal with something like that, the last thing I would do would be abandon ship. I would stay and be a thorn in his side until he was removed. We need to remember the parable of the unjust judge.

 

[ibkc]

Then there’s the infamous Newman Center mass where the priest wore tie-dye, a gold masquerade mask and a Mickey Mouse hat, played a kazoo, and used a Super Soaker for the asperges:

corningcm.blogspot.com/2009/02/welcome-to-mickey-mouse-mass.html

 

[ProVobis]

Why be so defensive? It appears that these types of Masses are valid. They also appear to serve some pastoral value. Let the people who prefer the OF in this fashion continue going to them, I say. They may even feel closer to Christ than the rest of us.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Unto my friend Bishop Basil and unto Father Brendan:

The existence of Eastern Christianity down here in the deep South is marginal at best. My experience with Eastern Christianity is limited to attending one Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday in 1976 at an Eastern Orthodox church wherein I cried my eyes out because I recognized just how much we Latin types had lost in less than ten years.

May I submit to both of you gentlemen that both my fellow Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are not subject to the kinds of abuse that we have seen in the last 40 years in the western Latin Rite church? Let me put this bluntly. I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to attend a reverent Latin rite cathedral. Even so, I have seen what I have seen since 1983. What goes on on Sunday is not what one experiences at diocesan Masses.

My bishop “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. I am a career state employee and a military veteran. “Acknowledged” is bureaucratese for “I hear you, but I ain’t gonna do anything about it.”

I am not a Southern Baptist. I do not want my liturgy to sound or act like a Southern Baptist worship service. Marriage is a sacrament and I do not want the sacrament of marriage to be profaned like I saw it profaned on TV yesterday afternoon with groomsmen jumping off the altar in quest of the bridal ring at a Southern Baptist wedding. I don’t want music that sounds like it belongs in a night club or a rock concert.

I am rock solid Latin Catholic. I am finding it very difficult to maintain civility when I get comments from parties who have abandoned the Latin rite in favor of Eastern Christianity.

Gentlemen: Do not think that I have not thought about moving to the East because of what I have seen with my own eyes. We have this lovely process which I learned before Vatican II called “examination of conscience” Conscience as I was taught in eigth grade from the Latin (con sciencia) meaning with knowledge. I am a Latin Rite Catholic as were my ancestors before me. If those of us abandon the cause of standing against all the abuses we see and hear in the Latin Rite church then we are lost.

Rejoice my brothers that your churches do not suffer abuse. Such is not the case with mine.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\I do not want my liturgy to sound or act like a Southern Baptist worship service.\

**I was a Southern Baptist before I got saved.

I’ve never seen anything at an Ordinary Form mass that resembled or sounded like a Southern Baptist service, where the music was generally better.**

 

[malphono]

Why be so defensive? It appears that these types of Masses are valid.

Maybe yes, maybe no. It quite depends on what is actually going on. As I’ve said, I’ve had the unfortunate experience of seeing some that most definitely fall in the “no” category.

They also appear to serve some pastoral value. Let the people who prefer the OF in this fashion continue going to them, I say. They may even feel closer to Christ than the rest of us.

Oh yes, of course the “pastoral value” defense. That’s the one usually proffered in defense of such things. Perhaps some church in the nightclub district of one or another city might have can-can dancers or belly dancers to liven things up. Or one near a sports stadium might have cheerleaders. Or one near the shore might have mermaids. Why not? Maybe that should be changed to “entertainment value” and be done with it.

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe that should be changed to “entertainment value” and be done with it.

Okay, but then I would have to call the EWTN Masses entertaining as well, since who would watch them on TV if they didn’t have some “entertainment value”?

I’ve had the unfortunate experience of seeing some that most definitely fall in the “no” category.

What would make them invalid exactly?

 

[Frbrendan]

Here is a bit of goofiness that is from a Mass:
youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8

I personally have never seen a clown Mass. I have seen a priest and a nun alternate saying the priest’s part of the Mass. Abuses do occur, but fortunately the worst abuses are rare. Hopefully the risk of public exposure will make them even rarer.

Okay, the Barney Mass is an abuse, I will admit. And yes, that priest’s bishop should at least give him a good talking to and a couple of months off without pay.

But then, here is my feeling about Barney. (Please click on the thumbnail to see the caption)
forums.catholic-questions.org/images/attach/jpg.gif

While I abhor the priest’s actions in this point, how many thousands, nay millions of Masses in the O.F. are celebrated every day around the world without Barney, clowns, or sugar cookies. Rather, the vast majority are celebrated with all the respect due to the Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ!