Co-habitating dilemma

[ktavares1]

I am married with 3 children. My brother, John, has decided to move in with his girlfriend, Sarah. I spoke to my brother and told him that I don’t agree with what he is doing and that he should get married before living with Sarah. Sarah’s family is coming in town and she wants to have all the family over at their house. My husband and I have already agreed that it’s not appropriate to bring our children over to their house when they are not married. My question is how do I tell them this without being insulting? Do I tell them before the dinner or do I just show up and tell them that we’ll bring the kids over when they are married?

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Yes, definitely talk to your brother about it before the dinner. Doing it at dinner will put him on the spot, potentially create a scene in front of the other family, and will create unnecessary tension for the dinner. You’ve already broached the subject with him, I assume fairly recently. So it shouldn’t be a big shock for him if you tell him that you believe that it will be confusing to your children to be taught one thing at home, and see the opposite at their dear uncle’s house. If you frame it kindly, and in terms of you teaching consistently to your kids, a reasonable person should be able to take the news gracefully. Another thing to explain to him is that if the children are faced with his actions that you consider sinful, then you will have to explain to them that brother is doing something wrong. By protecting them from having to face this particular decision, you are making it so that they don’t have to be told “uncle is wrong” right now. Not everyone is reasonable, especially these days when it comes to moral decisions. He may not take this gracefully. Which is another reason why you should tell him ahead of time.

Another thing to consider - is this dinner that is being thrown, a housewarming party, or a celebration of the moving in together? If it is, you may want to consider whether your whole family should be “unavailable” that night. It can be tricky to sidestep the comments of joy and congratulations that might be involved in a celebration of something immoral. OTOH, if your feelings are well known by lots of people, then it might not be all that big of a deal.

 

[Allegra]

I agree that you should tell him ahead of time that the children aren’t coming and why. If it is really important to Sarah that her family meet your children, you could suggest doing it at a restaurant or park instead.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I would not recommend telling them at the dinner party why you didn’t bring your children. That will only reflect poorly on you that you would choose to have such a discussion at such a public time and place. Tell them before.

But, and I’m not saying that you’re doing this, but it is worth mentioning that if you are not bringing your kids and you are telling them that you’re not doing so because they live together you should not expect them to care much one way or another. As someone who is currently cohabiting I’ve found that a lot of people will tell me that they don’t approve, or tell me that they will or won’t XYZ because of it, and when I shrug it off as their choice they get huffy, like my opinion or actions are supposed to change because they’ve made it clear that they don’t like my choices and are imparting “consequences”. Not everyone who disapproves does that, but some do. Just in case you were thinking about it I wanted to point out that that’s a great way to harm relationships.

Also don’t be surprised if your brother pulls away from you. Not that he’ll make a scene or go off on you or anything, but don’t be surprised if he calls less and spends less time with your family. In his view he is building his own family right now and he may not be too eager to maintain close relationships with people who have made it clear that they disapprove of it. Don’t take it personally, but it could happen.

 

[JackieMom]

I would not recommend telling them at the dinner party why you didn’t bring your children. That will only reflect poorly on you that you would choose to have such a discussion at such a public time and place. Tell them before.

But, and I’m not saying that you’re doing this, but it is worth mentioning that if you are not bringing your kids and you are telling them that you’re not doing so because they live together you should not expect them to care much one way or another. As someone who is currently cohabiting I’ve found that a lot of people will tell me that they don’t approve, or tell me that they will or won’t XYZ because of it, and when I shrug it off as their choice they get huffy, like my opinion or actions are supposed to change because they’ve made it clear that they don’t like my choices and are imparting “consequences”. Not everyone who disapproves does that, but some do. Just in case you were thinking about it I wanted to point out that that’s a great way to harm relationships.

Also don’t be surprised if your brother pulls away from you. Not that he’ll make a scene or go off on you or anything, but don’t be surprised if he calls less and spends less time with your family. In his view he is building his own family right now and he may not be too eager to maintain close relationships with people who have made it clear that they disapprove of it. Don’t take it personally, but it could happen.

BEL is right. Let him know ahead of time that you won’t be bringing the kids to his house. Be kind and calm. He will probably be expecting this since you already told him you disapprove.

Don’t be surprised if he (and especially his girlfriend) either don’t care or take this as an insult. They obviously don’t believe they are doing anything wrong. We had to make this choice with a family member, and it put a lot of distance in the relationship. We’re still friendly and polite, but much, much less close.

 

[runningdude]

I am married with 3 children. My brother, John, has decided to move in with his girlfriend, Sarah. I spoke to my brother and told him that I don’t agree with what he is doing and that he should get married before living with Sarah. Sarah’s family is coming in town and she wants to have all the family over at their house. My husband and I have already agreed that it’s not appropriate to bring our children over to their house when they are not married. My question is how do I tell them this without being insulting? Do I tell them before the dinner or do I just show up and tell them that we’ll bring the kids over when they are married?

Simply don’t bring the kids, ( and let your brother know ahead of time that the kids won’t be able to make it, so they don’t cook or make other arrangements for them).

You have no obligation to state exactly why the kids are not coming, and you don’t want to imply you are “blackmailing” your brother by withholding his nieces or nephews. You could give a vague but truthful excuse, such as bedtime or homework, if need be.

If it is an overnight trip, book a hotel room for your husband and self, so you don’t have to return the favor some day and have your brother and his girl friend over at your house.

 

[FrancisBenedict]

Remember to not lose touch with your Brother. Family is precious.

PAX+

 

[maryjk]

I would not recommend telling them at the dinner party why you didn’t bring your children. That will only reflect poorly on you that you would choose to have such a discussion at such a public time and place. Tell them before.

Your brother already knows what you think. There is no reason to bring it up on that night. Simply RSVP, letting them them know the children won’t be available to attend.

 

[Memaw]

I agree that you should tell him ahead of time that the children aren’t coming and why. If it is really important to Sarah that her family meet your children, you could suggest doing it at a restaurant or park instead.

Whats important to Sarah is not the issue. Whats important to their soul is the issue, especially for the children who are already growing up in a confused society. It’s parents responsibility to protect their children from as much as possible. Talk to your brother and tell him he has put you and your family in a complicated situation and your not at all comfortable with it. I have seen many of these live-in situations fizzle out and then what?
What about the kids then??? Personally I wouldn’t go at all. If he doesn’t mind putting you in an awkward situation, I wouldn’t worry about “hurting” his feelings. God Bless, Memaw

 

[LisaA]

I would not recommend telling them at the dinner party why you didn’t bring your children. That will only reflect poorly on you that you would choose to have such a discussion at such a public time and place. Tell them before.

But, and I’m not saying that you’re doing this, but it is worth mentioning that if you are not bringing your kids and you are telling them that you’re not doing so because they live together you should not expect them to care much one way or another. As someone who is currently cohabiting I’ve found that a lot of people will tell me that they don’t approve, or tell me that they will or won’t XYZ because of it, and when I shrug it off as their choice they get huffy, like my opinion or actions are supposed to change because they’ve made it clear that they don’t like my choices and are imparting “consequences”. Not everyone who disapproves does that, but some do. Just in case you were thinking about it I wanted to point out that that’s a great way to harm relationships.

Also don’t be surprised if your brother pulls away from you. Not that he’ll make a scene or go off on you or anything, but don’t be surprised if he calls less and spends less time with your family. In his view he is building his own family right now and he may not be too eager to maintain close relationships with people who have made it clear that they disapprove of it. Don’t take it personally, but it could happen.

While I agree that any discussion regarding the children’s appearance at dinner should be done beforehand if the subject comes up, I totally disagree with your perspective that it’s “all about you.” It’s not. It’s about the parents making the decision on behalf of their children. Your self absorbed presumption that the family is forcing you to accept “consequences” of your life choices is likely the least of their concern.

If the brother pulls away because the parents don’t compromise their morals and ethics, that will be his loss. Why should he expect them to participate in a choice that they do not agree with? That’s also incredibly selfish.

This attitude that it’s all about what I want to do and my choices and my standards is not very positive. But then you are an atheist and so have no basis for your moral choices other than your opinion.

Lisa

 

[BlueEyedLady]

While I agree that any discussion regarding the children’s appearance at dinner should be done beforehand if the subject comes up, I totally disagree with your perspective that it’s “all about you.” It’s not. It’s about the parents making the decision on behalf of their children. Your self absorbed presumption that the family is forcing you to accept “consequences” of your life choices is likely the least of their concern.You either didn’t read or didn’t understand. Regardless, your lack of charity is astounding. Trying to get someone to change their lifestyle because your acting out on your disapproval is a common form of manipulation. People even come on this site and express disgust about their family or friends using the same tactics to pull them away from Catholicism. I did say that not everyone who disapproves tries this, but some do and it never works.

If the brother pulls away because the parents don’t compromise their morals and ethics, that will be his loss. Why should he expect them to participate in a choice that they do not agree with? That’s also incredibly selfish.How dare he invite his sister and her family over for dinner! Doesn’t he realize that as Catholics they cannot share a meal with him in his house? He is so selfish expecting them to eat dinner. And no, you cannot say that it would be his loss because you don’t know how close the OP is to her brother. They may one day be the only family they have left for all you know. And the OP could miss out on a lot if he gets married, has kids, etc. Regardless of how big of a sinner he is, the OP probably feels that there is great value in maintaining a relationship with her brother. You would do well to respect that.

This attitude that it’s all about what I want to do and my choices and my standards is not very positive. But then you are an atheist and so have no basis for your moral choices other than your opinion.
How fortunate for you that you were born with the ability to judge perfect strangers so clearly!
Lisa

The bottom line is that it is about both of them, and to maintain a relationship they are going to have to respect each other’s beliefs. It isn’t a one-way street and they will both have to compromise.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Whats important to Sarah is not the issue. Whats important to their soul is the issue, especially for the children who are already growing up in a confused society. It’s parents responsibility to protect their children from as much as possible. Talk to your brother and tell him he has put you and your family in a complicated situation and your not at all comfortable with it. I have seen many of these live-in situations fizzle out and then what?
What about the kids then??? Personally I wouldn’t go at all. If he doesn’t mind putting you in an awkward situation, I wouldn’t worry about “hurting” his feelings. God Bless, Memaw

He did something wrong by inviting him to dinner? Yeesh if I ever have a dinner party I’m screwed. If I invite my fiance’s catholic family I’m selfishly putting them in an awkward position, and if I don’t I’m excluding them from our lives. Fortunately we’re all adults, and the come for dinner frequently. We know they disapprove, but we also know that they love us and would do anything for us. The only thing that would be accomplished by not only shunning our home but choosing to be offended by being invited over is that their relationship with their son and future grandkids would be irreparably harmed.

 

[holyrood]

The only thing that would be accomplished by not only shunning our home but choosing to be offended by being invited over is that their relationship with their son and future grandkids would be irreparably harmed.

Trying to get someone to change their lifestyle because your acting out on your disapproval is a common form of manipulation.

I find it interesting to equate standing by one’s values with ‘acting out.’ Isn’t using such a belittling, negative description a form of manipulation in and of itself? I would just find it very odd to describe, say Gandhi’s protests or the civil rights sit-ins as ‘acting out.’ No, they’re taking a stand for what is right, as is choosing not to expose children to lifestyles that fly in the face of one’s faith.

Perhaps some people would call it acting out and manipulation, even threats, to let a family know they must give tacit consent to morally problematic behavior or lose their child and grandchildren. What a choice.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I find it interesting to equate standing by one’s values with ‘acting out.’ Isn’t using such a belittling, negative description a form of manipulation in and of itself? I would just find it very odd to describe, say Gandhi’s protests or the civil rights sit-ins as ‘acting out.’ No, they’re taking a stand for what is right, as is choosing not to expose children to lifestyles that fly in the face of one’s faith.

Perhaps some people would call it acting out and manipulation, even threats, to let a family know they must give tacit consent to morally problematic behavior or lose their child and grandchildren. What a choice.

Trust me, they have not given any sort of consent, and it’s known that they don’t approve. But really, if they wanted to get huffy about a dinner invite rather than politely declining, we would distance ourselves. Frankly, we’re building a life and a family and neither of us has the time or energy to deal with people who would act like that. But the good news is that we both have the best families in the world. Mine approves and shows unconditional love. His does not approve but shows the same. We are very lucky.

I find it interesting that I’m the only one who sees this kind of behavior. As I’ve said over and over again, it is possible to show disapproval without manipulating. But, and I did make it clear that I didn’t think that the OP would necessarily do this, when someone dislikes your personal life choices and decides to impose consequences not out of a desire to do what is right but out of a desire to get you to change that is manipulation. Especially in cases where the consequences get more severe as the behavior doesn’t change.

 

[JackieMom]

I find it interesting to equate standing by one’s values with ‘acting out.’ Isn’t using such a belittling, negative description a form of manipulation in and of itself? I would just find it very odd to describe, say Gandhi’s protests or the civil rights sit-ins as ‘acting out.’ No, they’re taking a stand for what is right, as is choosing not to expose children to lifestyles that fly in the face of one’s faith.

Perhaps some people would call it acting out and manipulation, even threats, to let a family know they must give tacit consent to morally problematic behavior or lose their child and grandchildren. What a choice.

I don’t agree with shacking up AT ALL, but I think any time you tell people they are doing something wrong, you have to be prepared for them to tell you to jump in a lake or write you off as “close.”

From another perspective - what if my Protestant in-laws viewed Catholicism as a morally problematic religion, and let us know that they disagreed with our Catholic lifestyle to the extent that they would not allow their kids inside of our home? They felt that, inside of our home, their kids would be exposed to inappropriate and unhealthy images and ideas and simply could not in good conscience let them come over? Would I not be well within my rights to seriously limit contact with them?

I have had to let a family member know that we would not bring our kids to her home because of a shackup situation. I am not surprised that we’ve never been invited over since, and I won’t be shocked when they do get married and have kids that we are not a huge part of their lives. We really insulted and hurt them, after all.

 

[LisaA]

The bottom line is that it is about both of them, and to maintain a relationship they are going to have to respect each other’s beliefs. It isn’t a one-way street and they will both have to compromise.

Great job of making up what I said instead of actually addressing the issue. Once again, the issue is the parents’ decision about their children attending. Nothing was said about changing their lifestyle or claims “how dare they invite their sister to dinner.” You are conflating your own misunderstanding and ignoring the point and the OP’s question.

The parents don’t approve of the cohabitating arrangement. They didn’t threaten not t speak to the brother and girlfriend until they change their evil ways. They just do not want to expose their children to values they don’t share or confuse them. Children do ask the most interesting questions…“Mommy why…” By simply not bringing the children to the dinner they meet the girlfriend’s family, maintain the relationship with the brother and hopefully future sister in law, while maintaining their children’s innocence about these kind of choices. The unfortunate truth is as what used to be considered scandalous behavior becoming mainstream is that it becomes more and more acceptable and no one even thinks about children having a series of Mommy’s boyfriends sleeping over or Daddy’s girlfriends sharing a bed. Children learn what they live and what they see. It’s going to be hard to suggest that your children reserve sex for marriage when you treat sex as a recreational activity.

As to the comment about your ethics, if you are an atheist then your ethics are a matter of your own opinion. That is not uncharitable, it is the truth.

Lisa

 

[holyrood]

…when someone dislikes your personal life choices and decides to impose consequences not out of a desire to do what is right but out of a desire to get you to change that is manipulation. Especially in cases where the consequences get more severe as the behavior doesn’t change.

There’s a judgment call here: deciding their motives.

And if someone imposes consequences regarding another’s lifestyle (I won’t expose my children to it) out of a desire to do what’s right …they’ll continue to impose those consequences as long as the other person continues the lifestyle which they find objectionable. This isn’t manipulation. It’s simply not wishing to expose your children to something.

 

[coachdennis]

I don’t agree with shacking up AT ALL, but I think any time you tell people they are doing something wrong, you have to be prepared for them to tell you to jump in a lake or write you off as “close.”

From another perspective - what if my Protestant in-laws viewed Catholicism as a morally problematic religion, and let us know that they disagreed with our Catholic lifestyle to the extent that they would not allow their kids inside of our home? They felt that, inside of our home, their kids would be exposed to inappropriate and unhealthy images and ideas and simply could not in good conscience let them come over? Would I not be well within my rights to seriously limit contact with them?

I have had to let a family member know that we would not bring our kids to her home because of a shackup situation. I am not surprised that we’ve never been invited over since, and I won’t be shocked when they do get married and have kids that we are not a huge part of their lives. We really insulted and hurt them, after all.

Jackie Mom,

I commend you for not only standing up for your beliefs, but also doing so with eyes wide open about the possible fallout and why. I have numerous threads on this forum about people who have spoken out to various family members about their immoral behavior and then complain because those family members wanted nothing to do with them in the future! People sometimes forget that being a follower of Jesus involves risks and rejections.

To the OP,

Dramatic announcements at the dinner only really work on TV shows. You should tell your brother WHY the children and/or family is not attending before the event. Otherwise, I don’t think you are being honest with yourself and with them.

Just my opinion

 

[holyrood]

I don’t agree with shacking up AT ALL, but I think any time you tell people they are doing something wrong, you have to be prepared for them to tell you to jump in a lake or write you off as “close.”

From another perspective - what if my Protestant in-laws viewed Catholicism as a morally problematic religion, and let us know that they disagreed with our Catholic lifestyle to the extent that they would not allow their kids inside of our home? They felt that, inside of our home, their kids would be exposed to inappropriate and unhealthy images and ideas and simply could not in good conscience let them come over? Would I not be well within my rights to seriously limit contact with them?

I think you have misunderstood my point. I fully agree that when we take a stand against another’s behavior they’re likely to tell us to jump in a lake. My point is that if we call *one *person manipulative for having consequences, then we must fairly call the other ‘manipulative’ for they, too, are issuing consequences.

My further point is, we all react to one another. We all change our behavior according to how we feel about others’ behaviors. We all have the right to do so.

‘Manipulative’ means: 1.Characterized by unscrupulous control of a situation or person: “she was sly, selfish, and manipulative.”

Being manipulative is a negative quality and I think it’s unfair and inaccurate to accuse someone of ‘being manipulative’ because they have a response you don’t like to your lifestyle. They have the right to not bring their children around a lifestyle they dislike. The people living that lifestyle have a right to curtail further invitations. Both are understandable. But let’s not call people ‘manipulative’–ie, bad people–for that.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I think you have misunderstood my point. I fully agree that when we take a stand against another’s behavior they’re likely to tell us to jump in a lake. My point is that if we call *one *person manipulative for having consequences, then we must fairly call the other ‘manipulative’ for they, too, are issuing consequences.

My further point is, we all react to one another. We all change our behavior according to how we feel about others’ behaviors. We all have the right to do so.

‘Manipulative’ means: 1.Characterized by unscrupulous control of a situation or person: “she was sly, selfish, and manipulative.”

Being manipulative is a negative quality and I think it’s unfair and inaccurate to accuse someone of ‘being manipulative’ because they have a response you don’t like to your lifestyle. They have the right to not bring their children around a lifestyle they dislike. The people living that lifestyle have a right to curtail further invitations. Both are understandable. But let’s not call people ‘manipulative’–ie, bad people–for that.

So I guess no one is actually reading what I’m typing.

For the last time, it is not inherently manipulative to voice or even act on your disapproval. It is manipulative to do so out of a desire to change the person instead of reacting in what you feel to be the best interests of your family. Since cohabitation seems to be too loaded of a subject let’s use the (true) example of a friend of mine. This friend is in his late 20’s and lives about 700 miles from his parents. They want him to move back to his home state to be closer to them. So they decided that unless he moved home they would never help him with anything again, financially or otherwise. That didn’t work, so then they said that when he comes home he can no longer stay in their house. Eventually they said they would not be visiting him in his city anymore. Lately they’ve been threatening to cut him from the will. Sure, they have the “right” to do this, but it is manipulative. The same sorts of things happen to people who cohabit, people who adopt a religion different than their parents, or people who date/marry people their family doesn’t like.