Co-habitating dilemma

[LisaA]

Jackie Mom,

I commend you for not only standing up for your beliefs, but also doing so with eyes wide open about the possible fallout and why. I have numerous threads on this forum about people who have spoken out to various family members about their immoral behavior and then complain because those family members wanted nothing to do with them in the future! ***People sometimes forget that being a follower of Jesus involves risks and rejections.***To the OP,

Dramatic announcements at the dinner only really work on TV shows. You should tell your brother WHY the children and/or family is not attending before the event. Otherwise, I don’t think you are being honest with yourself and with them.

Just my opinion

Note bolded above…YES! This is exactly the point. Are we so weak that we won’t speak the truth, in love of course with proper timing and diplomatically? You become a slave to the other person’s decisions if you make your own based on someone’s reaction rather than the appropriatness of the decision.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

So I guess no one is actually reading what I’m typing.

For the last time, it is not inherently manipulative to voice or even act on your disapproval. ***It is manipulative to do so out of a desire to change the person instead of reacting in what you feel to be the best interests of your family. *** Since cohabitation seems to be too loaded of a subject let’s use the (true) example of a friend of mine. This friend is in his late 20’s and lives about 700 miles from his parents. They want him to move back to his home state to be closer to them. So they decided that unless he moved home they would never help him with anything again, financially or otherwise. That didn’t work, so then they said that when he comes home he can no longer stay in their house. Eventually they said they would not be visiting him in his city anymore. Lately they’ve been threatening to cut him from the will. Sure, they have the “right” to do this, but it is manipulative. The same sorts of things happen to people who cohabit, people who adopt a religion different than their parents, or people who date/marry people their family doesn’t like.

Oh yes we’re reading what you write but most of it has nothing to do with the OPs question or the thread.

You presume that the parents are withholding their children to change the brother’s mind or lifestyle…see bolded above. You have no idea and certainly nothing the OP said indicates that she and her husband are using the kids’ attendance as some sort of cudgel to get them to the altar. NO ONE SAID THIS. Where do you come up with these theories?

As to your example, that’s not manipulative, it’s a threat. Further it has no relation to the OP’s question which relates to exposing their children to a lifestyle that is not acceptable to them.

Lisa

 

[Phil_Marinus]

I am married with 3 children. My brother, John, has decided to move in with his girlfriend, Sarah. I spoke to my brother and told him that I don’t agree with what he is doing and that he should get married before living with Sarah. Sarah’s family is coming in town and she wants to have all the family over at their house. My husband and I have already agreed that it’s not appropriate to bring our children over to their house when they are not married. My question is how do I tell them this without being insulting? Do I tell them before the dinner or do I just show up and tell them that we’ll bring the kids over when they are married?

    I think it would be very rude by anyone not to accept a Dinner invitation from your brother simply because you do not agree with his living arrangements...

at least he is being honest and upfront with what is making him happy…
your brother would feel very embarrassed hoping to introduce his family to Sarah’s family but cannot because of silly pride…
Go over have an enjoyable time, it’s his life,he knows how you feel, ask yourself this…
Would Jesus refuse because there maybe a sinner there ?
Nope, he would go because he may teach lessons in being humble and forgiving.

 

[PatriceA]

I am married with 3 children. My brother, John, has decided to move in with his girlfriend, Sarah. I spoke to my brother and told him that I don’t agree with what he is doing and that he should get married before living with Sarah. Sarah’s family is coming in town and she wants to have all the family over at their house. My husband and I have already agreed that it’s not appropriate to bring our children over to their house when they are not married. My question is how do I tell them this without being insulting? Do I tell them before the dinner or do I just show up and tell them that we’ll bring the kids over when they are married?

You’ve already told him you don’t like the situation. If you get the chance before the dinner,if it was me, I’d certainly take my brother aside and tell him the children will not be joining everyone at the dinner and if he asks why, tell him why. If you don’t get the chance before dinner, certainly have a one on one chat with him that the children will not be over to his place until they are married. I’d also start thinking of a response if his girlfriend wants to be called “aunt” before the wedding. But bottom line, I wouldn’t make it an issue at the actual dinner and save the conversation when emotions and expectations are not so high such as they can be at family gatherings.

 

[Allegra]

Whats important to Sarah is not the issue. Whats important to their soul is the issue, especially for the children who are already growing up in a confused society. It’s parents responsibility to protect their children from as much as possible. Talk to your brother and tell him he has put you and your family in a complicated situation and your not at all comfortable with it. I have seen many of these live-in situations fizzle out and then what?
What about the kids then??? Personally I wouldn’t go at all. If he doesn’t mind putting you in an awkward situation, I wouldn’t worry about “hurting” his feelings. God Bless, Memaw

I think that if Sarah wants to have her family meet her future husband’s family, that is admirable and a step in the right direction. Remember, we have no idea where Sarah came from and for all we know, she might have been raised by wolves. Or she might just have been raised, through no fault of her own, in a society that really devalues marriage and overvalues sex. In other words, she might not no any better. I agree it is best to keep the little kids innocent about the cohabitating. However, there’s nothing wrong with socializing with her and encouraging normal pre-marital, inter-family interaction that is supposed to go along with an engagement.

In addition, I think it’s a little dishonest to accuse them of being inconsiderate by inviting them to dinner. That’s a nice thing to do. They probably don’t realize that it is harmful for kids to see their uncle cohabitating.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Oh yes we’re reading what you write but most of it has nothing to do with the OPs question or the thread.

You presume that the parents are withholding their children to change the brother’s mind or lifestyle…see bolded above. You have no idea and certainly nothing the OP said indicates that she and her husband are using the kids’ attendance as some sort of cudgel to get them to the altar. NO ONE SAID THIS. Where do you come up with these theories?

As to your example, that’s not manipulative, it’s a threat. Further it has no relation to the OP’s question which relates to exposing their children to a lifestyle that is not acceptable to them.

Lisa

FOR THE LAST TIME, I DID NOT ACCUSE THEM OF HAVING THOSE MOTIVES. I WARNED ABOUT THAT BEING A COMMON TRAP THAT THEY SHOULD AVOID FALLING INTO. THE BEHAVIOR USUALLY STARTS WHEN DISAPPROVAL DOESN’T GET THE ATTENTION THAT THE PERSON DISAPPROVING HOPED IT WOULD.

So why did I bring this up? Well, the idea of calling out her brother at his party was a red flag for me and I thought it was worth mentioning that if she sets out to make this a punishment to get his attention it would only be destructive to their relationship.

But you do seem to be doing a lot of accusing, so please stop calling me self-absorbed and making comments about my morals and ethics and their source. That’s a topic you know nothing about.

 

[LisaA]

FOR THE LAST TIME, I DID NOT ACCUSE THEM OF HAVING THOSE MOTIVES. I WARNED ABOUT THAT BEING A COMMON TRAP THAT THEY SHOULD AVOID FALLING INTO. THE BEHAVIOR USUALLY STARTS WHEN DISAPPROVAL DOESN’T GET THE ATTENTION THAT THE PERSON DISAPPROVING HOPED IT WOULD.

So why did I bring this up? Well, the idea of calling out her brother at his party was a red flag for me and I thought it was worth mentioning that if she sets out to make this a punishment to get his attention it would only be destructive to their relationship.

But you do seem to be doing a lot of accusing, so please stop calling me self-absorbed and making comments about my morals and ethics and their source. That’s a topic you know nothing about.

Here is the OP:

I am married with 3 children. My brother, John, has decided to move in with his girlfriend, Sarah. I spoke to my brother and told him that I don’t agree with what he is doing and that he should get married before living with Sarah. Sarah’s family is coming in town and she wants to have all the family over at their house. My husband and I have already agreed that it’s not appropriate to bring our children over to their house when they are not married. My question is how do I tell them this without being insulting? Do I tell them before the dinner or do I just show up and tell them that we’ll bring the kids over when they are married

Where in the world did you get the idea she was going to “call her brother out” or set out to make this a punishment? It sounds as if she is trying to be diplomatic, not to insult her brother, but still stay true to their moral guidelines. I thought the questions were sincere and that the advice given is both supportive of the relationship and still not compromising their morals.

As to your own morals and their source, you state you are an atheist. You state you are cohabitating. Thus you are TELLING me about your morals and their source.

Lisa

 

[maryjk]

I am married with 3 children. My brother, John, has decided to move in with his girlfriend, Sarah. I spoke to my brother and told him that I don’t agree with what he is doing and that he should get married before living with Sarah. Sarah’s family is coming in town and she wants to have all the family over at their house. My husband and I have already agreed that it’s not appropriate to bring our children over to their house when they are not married. My question is how do I tell them this without being insulting? Do I tell them before the dinner or do I just show up and tell them that we’ll bring the kids over when they are married?

Where in the world did you get the idea she was going to “call her brother out” or set out to make this a punishment? It sounds as if she is trying to be diplomatic, not to insult her brother, but still stay true to their moral guidelines. I thought the questions were sincere and that the advice given is both supportive of the relationship and still not compromising their morals.

As to your own morals and their source, you state you are an atheist. You state you are cohabitating. Thus you are TELLING me about your morals and their source.

Lisa

Many people mentioned that the OP shouldn’t wait until the night of the dinner to tell her brother the kids aren’t showing up.

Because it seemed like the OP may have planned on showing up and announcing that the kids aren’t here “because you guys aren’t married.”

That sounds very much like “calling him out.”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Here is the OP:

I am married with 3 children. My brother, John, has decided to move in with his girlfriend, Sarah. I spoke to my brother and told him that I don’t agree with what he is doing and that he should get married before living with Sarah. Sarah’s family is coming in town and she wants to have all the family over at their house. My husband and I have already agreed that it’s not appropriate to bring our children over to their house when they are not married. My question is how do I tell them this without being insulting? Do I tell them before the dinner or do I just show up and tell them that we’ll bring the kids over when they are married

Where in the world did you get the idea she was going to “call her brother out” or set out to make this a punishment? It sounds as if she is trying to be diplomatic, not to insult her brother, but still stay true to their moral guidelines. I thought the questions were sincere and that the advice given is both supportive of the relationship and still not compromising their morals.

As to your own morals and their source, you state you are an atheist. You state you are cohabitating. Thus you are TELLING me about your morals and their source.

Lisa

I don’t care. I really don’t. I think I had good advice if the OP was headed in a pretty common direction. And even if she wasn’t, this is a popular site and someone else might see it. I didn’t insult anyone, I was trying to be helpful and charitable, so back off.

If you want to discuss my morals/ethics you are free to take it to my inbox. But for the sake of charity please stop making public statements regarding what you think you know. It’s inappropriate.

 

[PatriceA]

Many people mentioned that the OP shouldn’t wait until the night of the dinner to tell her brother the kids aren’t showing up.

Because it seemed like the OP may have planned on showing up and announcing that the kids aren’t here “because you guys aren’t married.”

That sounds very much like “calling him out.”

That’s the way I took it, that she might be thinking of blindsiding the brother with the kids aren’t coming and the reason why is because of the co-habitating when they walk in the door. In the meantime, the brother and his girlfriend could be planning a menu just for the kids and make an extra effort to include the kids in the gathering. Its just good manners to let the host know that someone in your family or party of guests won’t be showing up for the occasion, regardless if the reason is justified or not.

The parents have a legitimate reason to not to take the kids to the dinner, that I agree. Going about how to handle the situation though seems to be the problem. Waiting until you are actually at the event or occasion to bring up the why, when and how is not appropriate. You give your regrets BEFORE the event, not AT the event unless it is truly unavoidable. The sister and the brother need to have another discussion about the children being at the brother’s place, preferably away from the day of the event when cooler heads will prevail.

 

[LisaA]

I don’t care. I really don’t. I think I had good advice if the OP was headed in a pretty common direction. And even if she wasn’t, this is a popular site and someone else might see it. I didn’t insult anyone, I was trying to be helpful and charitable, so back off.

If you want to discuss my morals/ethics you are free to take it to my inbox. But for the sake of charity please stop making public statements regarding what you think you know. It’s inappropriate.

Once again you make something up. I didn’t say you insulted anyone, just that you were attributing motives to the parents that didn’t seem evident from the original post. I think the OP sincerely wanted to know what she should do about informing the brother that the children would not be attending. I agree with those who suggested that it’s good manners to RSVP as to who would be attending the event…that’s done beforehand naturally. I’m not sure I would even bring up the reason unless the brother specifically asked…which I doubt since he knows his sister does not approve of his liviing situation.

As to what “I think” since you have made those statements, it’s what you stated, not what I think. If you don’t want people to know you are an athiest and cohabitating, then don’t make the information public.

Lisa

 

[Memaw]

Trust me, they have not given any sort of consent, and it’s known that they don’t approve. But really, if they wanted to get huffy about a dinner invite rather than politely declining, we would distance ourselves. Frankly, we’re building a life and a family and neither of us has the time or energy to deal with people who would act like that. But the good news is that we both have the best families in the world. Mine approves and shows unconditional love. His does not approve but shows the same. We are very lucky.

I find it interesting that I’m the only one who sees this kind of behavior. As I’ve said over and over again, it is possible to show disapproval without manipulating. But, and I did make it clear that I didn’t think that the OP would necessarily do this, when someone dislikes your personal life choices and decides to impose consequences not out of a desire to do what is right but out of a desire to get you to change that is manipulation. Especially in cases where the consequences get more severe as the behavior doesn’t change.

So basically what your saying is, Its my way or the highway. Who’s doing the manipulating anyway?? God Bless, Memaw

 

[BlueEyedLady]

So basically what your saying is, Its my way or the highway. Who’s doing the manipulating anyway?? God Bless, Memaw

Because everyone wants to be close to people who get offended by dinner invites and are so consumed with disapproval that they can’t even spend an afternoon with you without you getting an earful.

Yeah, if someone said I was selfish for inviting them to dinner I would distance myself. Most people would.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Once again you make something up. I didn’t say you insulted anyone, just that you were attributing motives to the parents that didn’t seem evident from the original post. I think the OP sincerely wanted to know what she should do about informing the brother that the children would not be attending. I agree with those who suggested that it’s good manners to RSVP as to who would be attending the event…that’s done beforehand naturally. I’m not sure I would even bring up the reason unless the brother specifically asked…which I doubt since he knows his sister does not approve of his liviing situation.

As to what “I think” since you have made those statements, it’s what you stated, not what I think. If you don’t want people to know you are an athiest and cohabitating, then don’t make the information public.

Lisa

I’m sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. You are derailing the thread with irrelevant , inflammatory, and inaccurate statements about the source of my morals. This is disrespectful to me and the OP, so stop. If you want to continue to goad someone into a debate find someone else. If you genuinely want an honest and respectful discussion my inbox is open.

 

[LisaA]

I’m sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. You are derailing the thread with irrelevant , inflammatory, and inaccurate statements about the source of my morals. This is disrespectful to me and the OP, so stop. If you want to continue to goad someone into a debate find someone else. If you genuinely want an honest and respectful discussion my inbox is open.

I’m not debating your stated atheism or your living situation. You are an adult and have made those choices for your own life. It’s between you and …well the God you don’t believe in I guess. Not my business or concern trust me.

You stated in several posts you were cohabitating and that your cohabitating partner’s family does not approve. Ergo your response to the OP is colored by your perspective which is far different than hers. It didn’t sound as if you were “hearing” what the OP said and attributed motives to her that were just not apparent…punishment, calling out…manipulating…etc. I think the OP was just looking sincerely for advice about handling a sticky situation.

Since you indicated your cohabiting partner’s family does not approve of your living arrangements, I understand why you wanted to warn the OP about being overly disapproving. But I just never saw that attitude from her post.

Lisa

 

[ktavares1]

I did sincerely want to know how to address it with my brother. When I asked if I should just show up and say the kids couldn’t make it, I was asking if I should act like it’s no big deal. I now realize that I should RSVP before hand and I agree that I should just simply say only my husband and I can attend and if asked why I can explain myself.

I do struggle with pride. And when I told him I disprove of his choice, I did it as lovingly and charitable as I possibly could. (Maybe I shouldn’t have said anything at all? After all, he knew that I did not live with my husband before we were married) I do not want to “punish” my brother which is why I still want to attend. (But maybe I already have by stating what I think) But I have an obligation as a parent to protect my children. It’s an awkward situation all the way around, and I’m seeking advice to lessen the awkwardness. I’m not sure it’s possible.

The comment about not being surprised if he doesn’t care when I say my kids can’t come is something I needed to hear. It makes me think twice and it certainly makes me consider my prideful nature.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Hi ktavares!

The effect it has on him may depend on whether or not he knows what he is doing is wrong.
It’s hard to explain, but if you were raised “to know better”, comments from your family, or other people that care about you, can affect you (not necessarily will you correct your behavior, but it can affect your efforts to calm your conscience when you know what you are doing isn’t right, and it can plant a seed for wanting to make things right in the future).

It is tough, but when our family is making choices that are not good for their soul we need to do something. Sometimes it may just be prayer, but many times there may be other things we need to do, even if it puts us in uncomfortable situations.

 

[haedron]

Just to offer a different opinion…

My wife and I have very close friends who co-habitate. We’ve been to their house on more than one occasion with our 6 year old son. When the inevitable questions start, we use it as a teachable moment.

Now, I can understand that kids of a certain age aren’t ready for this, but our son is finishing up kindergarten and already comes home with questions about the kids who don’t have a mommy or daddy, whose parents live in different homes, and one kid who has 2 mommies. The co-habitating couple who’s engaged is the least of my “dad” problems.

I just see this as part of life, and it’s my job as a dad to explain what’s right and what’s wrong, and why we believe it - but that we still treat people with love and maybe say an extra prayer or two for them, and respect their right to live their life the way they choose even if it’s not what we wish for them or what we would do for ourselves (or most importantly, what God wants).

I keep my opinions about how my family and friends live their lives to myself. Main reason being that I would like the same courtesy in return.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

I think some folk here should have a cup of tea and a lie down, then read answer #23

 

[LisaA]

I think some folk here should have a cup of tea and a lie down, then read answer #23

Not sure your point. Your post indicated the dinner invitation was refused on account of ‘sinners’ being there. What would Jesus do…? We’re all sinners so having dinner with anyone is likely to put us in contact with them, not to mention when we wake up every morning and look in the mirror! Those sinners are everywhere!

Really the point was how to handle the issue of the children being exposed to a situation that is not keeping with the parents’ ethics and moral code. Interesting response regarding today’s chaotic society with “two mommies” or no daddy or boomarang kids going back and forth. It’s a lot more complicated now! I suspect the parents will at some point address those with different living arrangements and family structure.

It sounded like no question that the OP planned to go to dinner, the question was the children. What do you think?

Lisa