Co-mediatrix

[Vico]

Since when does that make her Mediatrix of all Graces?

It doesn’t.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

it doesn’t.

finally!!!

 

[Vico]

finally!!!

I think you wanted to see that response from steve b, not me.

 

[AXO]

The Church has always taught that

“co” as in co-mediatrix, means with Christ.

“co” does **NOT mean equal to **Christ, and never has meant that…

The traditional title is simply “mediatrix” or “mediatrix of all graces”. “Co-mediatrix” seems a blend of “co-redemptrix” and “mediatrix”.

When Mary gave birth to Jesus, thereby bringing the font of ALL grace into the world, what part of that was she left out of?

Defending the claim of “mediatrix of all graces” as you are doing is risky. It’s a Mariological point only known to the Roman rite. Other people may fail to see why bearing and giving birth to Christ implies that she is necessarily the channel through which absolutely all graces come into the world. I myself have these doubts.

With regard to the Catechism quote, I find no problem with it. “Mediatrix” is an appropriate title for Mary. I understand you stand up for the “of all graces” part.

We would be grateful to you if you extensively explained your position here instead of massively providing unnecessary links.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I think you wanted to see that response from steve b, not me.

I still am happy someone gets what I am saying.

 

[JM3]

THE MARIOLOGY OF CARDINAL JOURNET

Journet distinguishes the co-redemptive mediation of individual Christians, of the Church, and of the Virgin. In each case co-redemptive mediation is a participation in the redemption won by Christ. Anyone who is a member of Christ (and thus of the Church) is called to be a co-redeemer by interceding on behalf of others. This is called the individual co-redemptive mediation of Christians. It is measured by the intensity of each individual’s fervor, or willingness to suffer with Christ.xxx The collective co-redemptive mediation of the Church is also measured by its fervor, which varies, but is always greater than that of each of its members; moreover, its scope is also greater. However, it is limited. The Church’s collective co-redemptive mediation (1) is not fully valid until the Church is fully formed, that is, from Pentecost onward; (2) obtains only a part of the graces given to men from Pentecost until the Parousia.xxxi

While the Church’s co-redemptive mediation is universal only in a relative sense (because of the two qualifications noted above), that of the Virgin is absolutely universal, because (1) it extends to all people of all times; (2) it obtains for them all the graces which derive from the redemption of Christ; (3) it precedes the co-redemptive mediation of the Church and contains it.xxxii

The absolutely universal character of Mary’s co-redemptive mediation, as distinguished from that of the Church and of individual Christians, is due to the privilege of the Immaculate Conception. In general, every co-redeemer must be among the redeemed. The more intense the grace of redemption in him, the more it becomes co-redemptive grace. Had Mary been redeemed in the same manner as the rest of men, she would have been a co-redeemer in the same manner they are. But she was redeemed in a unique way, superior to all others, namely, by preservative redemption. She is the first to be redeemed, so that the intensity of the grace of redemption is supreme in her, making her the first, unique, and supreme co-redeemer.

Once again we see the Virgin as the ultimate realization of the Church, so that even the title Mediatrix omnium gratiarum is ultimately a title of the Church: The mediation of the Virgin is … the point toward which the Church’s mediation tends without ever reaching it, as a curve tends toward its asymptote … It is only in the Virgin that the Church can become mediatrix . . . of all graces, mediatrix omnium gratiarum.xxxiii In Mary, the Church reaches the point toward which it tends without being able to reach it … In Mary, the Church becomes co-redemptrix in Christ … of all men … from the beginning of the world … to the end.xxxiv

REDEMPTORIS MATER

21…At Cana in Galilee there is shown only one concrete aspect of human need, apparently a small one of little importance (“They have no wine”). But it has a symbolic value: this coming to the aid of human needs means, at the same time, bringing those needs within the radius of Christ’s messianic mission and salvific power. Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself “in the middle,” that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as mother. She knows that as such she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she “has the right” to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary “intercedes” for mankind. And that is not all. As a mother she also wishes the messianic power of her Son to be manifested, that salvific power of his which is meant to help man in his misfortunes, to free him from the evil which in various forms and degrees weighs heavily upon his life. Precisely as the Prophet Isaiah had foretold about the Messiah in the famous passage which Jesus quoted before his fellow townsfolk in Nazareth: “To preach good news to the poor…to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind…” (cf. Lk. 4:18).

ADIUTRICEM

Jesus Gave Mary to His Church

1. It is impossible to measure the power and scope of her offices since the day she was taken up to that height of heavenly glory in the company of her Son, to which the dignity and luster of her merits entitle her. From her heavenly abode she began, by God’s decree, to watch over the Church, to assist and befriend us as our Mother; so that she who was so intimately associated with the mystery of human salvation is just as closely associated with the distribution of the graces which for all time will flow from the Redemption.

Mary, Help of Christians

1. The power thus put into her hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help as though impelled by an instinct of nature, confidently sharing with her their future hopes and past achievements, their sorrows and joys, commending themselves like children to the care of a bountiful mother. How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as “our Lady, our Mediatrix,”(3) “the Reparatrix of the whole world,”(4) “the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.”(5)

 

[steve_b]

The traditional title is simply “mediatrix” or “mediatrix of all graces”. “Co-mediatrix” seems a blend of “co-redemptrix” and “mediatrix”.

Defending the claim of “mediatrix of all graces” as you are doing is risky.

It’s a Mariological point only known to the Roman rite. Other people may fail to see why bearing and giving birth to Christ implies that she is necessarily the channel through which absolutely all graces come into the world. I myself have these doubts.

With regard to the Catechism quote, I find no problem with it. “Mediatrix” is an appropriate title for Mary. I understand you stand up for the “of all graces” part.
We would be grateful to you if you extensively explained your position here instead of massively providing unnecessary links.

To your points

• Qualified references (which I gave) are absolutely necessary.when talking about Church doctrine. And it is also necessary to say that not all doctrine is dogma.

mediatrix = a woman who is a mediator
mediator = one that mediates between parties
mediate = occupying a middle position, acting through an intervening agency, exhibiting indirect causation, connection, or relation

Jesus is the one mediator between God and man 1 Timothy 2:5

Yet how did God choose to make that happen to the world?

God asked Mary for her yes to be the mother of His Son, ergo bringing Jesus, 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, into the world in the flesh. Jesus came to the world then, through Mary. She is Mediatrix by definition of Her son who is source of ALL GRACE. She is Mediatrix of that…by definition

And Mary got Jesus to perform His first miracle.(changing water into wine) Wedding feast at Cana, which began His public life… Why did Mary get involved in that? She saw a need. She is acting as mediatrix of the one who is ALL GRACE. And let’s not forget, Jesus did what Mary asked.

Could God have come to us in any way He wanted to? Yes. And His choice? He came to us through Mary. THAT by definition (going through someone to get to someone = mediation).

And since Jesus is the font of all grace, and Mary is His mother, one has to ask, what part of ALL GRACE did Mary not deliver to the world?

As an aside, before Mary’s yes and her pregnancy began, the angel addressed her as Hail full of grace. IOW before the annunciation, The angel indicates, that Mary in the sight of God is already full of grace. Which is why the Church teaches she was immaculately conceived.

 

[steve_b]

The Incarnation is when God became Man in the womb of Mary. From what I remember in Catholic teaching during grade school, it has nothing to do with Mediatrix of all Graces.

That’s why I’m giving you references from valued and accomplished theologians on this subject to add to your education. It’s not my opinion I’m expressing.
J:

And for the record I required a Yes or No answer, one which you did not give. Instead of debating this you basically quote mined from the Holy Catechism to support your view and gave a series of accusations. I ask you again: Am I wrong in saying that what should be given to Jesus should NOT be given to Mary? Yes or No.

#47

 

[JM3]

My question was stated plainly, “Am I wrong in saying what is Jesus’ should NOT be given to Mary?” I asked for a simple Yes or No.

In entertaining the suite of a prince, one entertains the prince himself, and he would consider
any discourtesy shown to his officers under pretense of wishing for him alone as an insult to himself.

How much more so to His mother?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

In entertaining the suite of a prince, one entertains the prince himself, and he would consider
any discourtesy shown to his officers under pretense of wishing for him alone as an insult to himself.

How much more so to His mother?

Answer my question.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

That’s why I’m giving you references from valued and accomplished theologians on this subject to add to your education. It’s not my opinion I’m expressing.

#47

You still didn’t answer my question.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

To your points

• Qualified references (which I gave) are absolutely necessary.when talking about Church doctrine. And it is also necessary to say that not all doctrine is dogma.

mediatrix = a woman who is a mediator
mediator = one that mediates between parties
mediate = occupying a middle position, acting through an intervening agency, exhibiting indirect causation, connection, or relation

Jesus is the one mediator between God and man 1 Timothy 2:5

Yet how did God choose to make that happen to the world?

God asked Mary for her yes to be the mother of His Son, ergo bringing Jesus, 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, into the world in the flesh. Jesus came to the world then, through Mary. She is Mediatrix by definition of Her son who is source of ALL GRACE. She is Mediatrix of that…by definition

And Mary got Jesus to perform His first miracle.(changing water into wine) Wedding feast at Cana, which began His public life… Why did Mary get involved in that? She saw a need. She is acting as mediatrix of the one who is ALL GRACE. And let’s not forget, Jesus did what Mary asked.

Could God have come to us in any way He wanted to? Yes. And His choice? He came to us through Mary. THAT by definition (going through someone to get to someone = mediation).

And since Jesus is the font of all grace, and Mary is His mother, one has to ask, what part of ALL GRACE did Mary not deliver to the world?

As an aside, before Mary’s yes and her pregnancy began, the angel addressed her as Hail full of grace. IOW before the annunciation, The angel indicates, that Mary in the sight of God is already full of grace. Which is why the Church teaches she was immaculately conceived.

Since when does giving birth qualify her as Mediatrix of all Graces? I will have to concede that Full of Grace does not mean that she is the source of Grace. She merely received it.
You do know God entering this world was not limited to the Incarnation.

 

[steve_b]

Since when does giving birth qualify her as Mediatrix of all Graces?

Are you even reading what is being posted?
J:

I will have to concede that Full of Grace does not mean that she is the source of Grace. She merely received it.
You do know God entering this world was not limited to the Incarnation.

Is Mary being the source of grace your issue?

I never said she is the source of grace. No one I’ve quoted said she is the source of grace. Who said, she is the source of grace? Please give a source for that…

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Are you even reading what is being posted?

I did. And it’s faulty logic.

 

[steve_b]

I did. And it’s faulty logic.

No matter what is posted

I think you’re operating on the faulty premise from the beginning, that this topic is saying Mary is the source of grace.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

No matter what is posted

I think you’re operating on the faulty premise from the beginning, that this topic is saying Mary is the source of grace.

I’ve answered both premises.

 

[JM3]

“Am I wrong in saying what is Jesus’ should NOT be given to Mary?”

Answer my question.

Yes, you are wrong.

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_24091997.html

As maternal Mediatrix, Mary presents our desires and petitions to Christ, and transmits the divine gifts to us, interceding continually on our behalf.

She transmits THE divine gifts to us. Not some of them, all of them.

LG 25…Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra;

 

[Vico]

Yes, you are wrong.

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_24091997.html

She transmits THE divine gifts to us. Not some of them, all of them.

LG 25…Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra;

It is with such love that we have the Most Holy Trinity, and the angels and the saints interceding for us.

*Redemptoris Mater *22

This maternal role of Mary flows, according to God’s good pleasure, "from the superabundance of the merits of Christ; it is founded on his mediation, absolutely depends on it, and draws all its efficacy from it."44 It is precisely in this sense that the episode at Cana in Galilee offers us a sort of first announcement of Mary’s mediation, wholly oriented towards Christ and tending to the revelation of his salvific power.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html

Pope Leo X wrote of Jesus Christ, in Sermon 59: “…Your cross is the fount of all blessings, the source of all graces, and through it the believers receive strength for weakness, glory for shame, life for death.”

newadvent.org/fathers/360359.htm

Catechism of the Catholic Church
336 From its beginning until death, human life is surrounded by their watchful care and intercession.202 "Beside each believer stands an angel as protector and shepherd leading him to life."203 Already here on earth the Christian life shares by faith in the blessed company of angels and men united in God,

388 …We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. …

A cloud of witnesses
2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things."42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Yes, you are wrong.

So you believe Marian devotion gives you a get out of hell free card? So you can worship Mary? Cause last time I checked that is not what I was taught.Yeah. Seriously.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Yes, you are wrong.

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_24091997.html

She transmits THE divine gifts to us. Not some of them, all of them.

LG 25…Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra;

One must state, however, that there are critical distinctions between obsequium religiosum, which is is what LG 25 refers to and obsequium fidei which is what is required of dogmatic definitions. It would be wrong to imply that they are the same thing or given unto the same realities.

Of the Virgin, there are four dogmatic definitions to which the assent of obsequium fidei is positively obliged of the will and intellect…and it cannot be withheld

• She is Θεοτόκος
• She is perpetually virgin
• She is immaculately conceived
• That she was assumed body and soul into Heaven at the end of the course of her earthly life.

There have been petitions for a dogmatic definition concerning the title of Mediatrix. In each instance, they have been rejected.

• It was rejected when sought after World War I in a move at first led by Cardinal Mercier.
• It was rejected by the Council Fathers en masse. It was in this regard that the Council Fathers were prompted to declare:
  54. Wherefore this Holy Synod, in expounding the doctrine on the Church, in which the divine Redeemer works salvation, intends to describe with diligence both the role of the Blessed Virgin in the mystery of the Incarnate Word and the Mystical Body, and the duties of redeemed mankind toward the Mother of God, who is mother of Christ and mother of men, particularly of the faithful. It does not, however, have it in mind to give a complete doctrine on Mary, nor does it wish to decide those questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified. Those opinions therefore may be lawfully retained which are propounded in Catholic schools concerning her, who occupies a place in the Church which is the highest after Christ and yet very close to us.
• Finally, it was sought at the end of the 20th century by yet a different petition and in conjunction with corollary definitions.

To be precise: “the questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified” concerned the petition that had rested with the Holy See for over 40 years at that point about the mediation of the Blessed Virgin

In the latest instance of the petition, which would address three titles (although what is meant in one instance seems in a state of flux) in one dogmatic definition, the Holy Father referred the matter to multiple theological commissions for their advice and counsel; an unfavourable judgement was returned in each instance, for various reasons, which caused the Holy Father to table the matter. The matter is still being petitioned by the laity but without being championed at present within the College of Bishops as it was in times past since the theological community remains in reflection.

Among the various objections the theological community has raised are how “ALL” is to be understood from our perspective, as theologians, if in fact that is part of the definition being sought; it varies.

Even more notably, the precise mode of mediation in terms of the specific category of “sacramental grace” as well as in terms of all grace (sanctifying, actual, etc.) when said grace is communicated in and through a sacrament. This is because there are profound theological ramifications which go beyond this particular instance of definition. This is also most notably an issue raised by sacramental theologians. Specialists in Mariology have their own set of issues beyond those raised by the sacramental theologians.

As with the issue of prevenient grace as a necessary resolution to the theological issues raised by the attempt to define the Immaculate Conception, so the issues concerning the Theology of Grace and the Theology of the Sacraments would have to be resolved by some mechanism before a dogmatic definition.could begin to be formulated…presuming that the Vicar of Christ would first agree with the proposition and then find that such a dogmatic definition is actually warranted.