Co redemptrix dogmatically defined?

[FCEGM]

One blasphemes against God.

OTC, the sin of blasphemy can also be ascribed to one who speaks against the Saints or
sacred things since they pertain to God and His service. IOW, it is by His will and grace that they are what they are, thus a word against them is a word against Him in His acts.

 

[FCEGM]

Logical fallacy Abu. No one is debunking the doctrine of the Church on Mary as Mediatrix of all graces. The thread title is clear.

Right, SJ, the thread title is clear, but you must have missed a few posts on the thread which speak against Mary as Mediatrix.

 

[Abu]

StrawberryJam
Logical fallacy Abu. No one is debunking the doctrine of the Church on Mary as Mediatrix of all graces. The thread title is clear.

Incorrect.
The tread title is clear, and the unfortunate confusion and disregard for the doctrine of the Church on Mediatrix of all graces is also clear –

GraceDK , post #70
Your example is simply taking things way too far. I absolutely don’t believe that I cannot pray for a favour from Jesus without Him having to go and ask His mother if she agrees to give it to me… Its fully absurd and stand to your own account. Please don’t ask others to believe in such things.
FCEGM, post #72
Further, your understanding is not how it “works”. Mary as Mediatrix of all Graces acts by God’s grace in the same was as she did in being the Mother of God when Jesus came to us through her womb; now all graces that Christ bestows flow through her. He doesn’t have to ask her for permission - that was already done in her “yes” to Gabriel’s message.
GraceDK, post #73
I will continue to tell people what I believe is the Biblical teaching… I have studied this for years now and still what people say here makes little sense to me. It seems to me like you give Mary divine attributes, and you may choose to do that, but I will continue to believe this is a dangerous path.

Whether one doctrine or another, the attitude of dissent based on personal opinion rather than fidelity to Christ and His Church is the lesson and the need for fidelity is uncontestable.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Right, SJ, the thread title is clear, but you must have missed a few posts on the thread which speak against Mary as Mediatrix.

Correct FCEGM.

What is clear is that the question has an answer, and one that a Catholic can accept.
The answer to:

Re: Co redemptrix dogmatically defined?

Is- wait for it…

No, not yet.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

This I simply don’t believe. Sorry, but I pray to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit and to God the Father and they give me grace and gifts without being bound by any intercession of any creature, period.

Just because you don’t believe that the Graces you have received you have received from the hand of Mary doesn’t mean you didn’t.

Also, do you not pray to Mary, the saints and the angels?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

1. If we are all co-redeemers then why bother giving Mary the Title?

Because Mary is Co-Redeemer par excellence.

 

[Tomster]

Precisely.

The attitude of debunking the doctrine of the Church on Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, or any other doctrine, is symptomatic of those who place their feelings, views, desires and prejudices above Christ and His Church. It is most unscriptural:

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim 3:16). St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.” (Eph 3:10). The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

To overcome the prejudice, a humble obedience to Christ through His Church is the answer. Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62, (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught. The Council would (and could) not have so done if this was merely the expression of personal opinions by these Popes. The Council teaches that she was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (59). There are twelve Papal Texts speaking of Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces. [See Fr William G Most,*Our Father’s Plan

, 1988, Trinity Communications, p 92-93. ]

Since even a non-infallible doctrine requires the “loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium *25, no dissent may be allowed. However Fr William G Most affirms: “These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.” [See post #18 and http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm ]. This infallibility would fall under the universality of the present.

The gravity of dissent is emphasised by Pope John Paul II:
“It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].

Well said Abu!

 

[Tomster]

It’s the Church you are disagreeing with, then, Grace:

Further, your understanding is not how it “works”. Mary as Mediatrix of all Graces acts by God’s grace in the same was as she did in being the Mother of God when Jesus came to us through her womb; now all graces that Christ bestows flow through her. He doesn’t have to ask her for permission - that was already done in her “yes” to Gabriel’s message - it is the “economy” of heaven. IOW, because she said “yes” Him, God, Who created Mary to be the perfect Mother for His Incarnate Son and to be the Mother of all mankind, continues with His choice of Mary in bringing about the birth of her Son in us through the power of the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Mary is the immaculate window through which the rays of the Son shine forth on the soul.

Thanks Frances.

 

[Tomster]

Because Mary is Co-Redeemer par excellence.

That she is!

 

[Tomster]

I’ll just be honest with you.
I dont understand your latin. Could you speak English.
Also, I asked you to say yes or no to a simple question which, in my oppinion, I posed in understandable Biblical language. Would you please answer?

Redemption means to buy free. Christ did that for us by means of giving His Body and Blood for our Salvation. He did this act alone and in capacity of being fully human and fully divine.
No one has redeemed me except from Him. Jesus opened the gates of heaven (also for Eve) You can give a whole lot of theological abstract language to explain why you think that Mary, having given birth to Jesus, has a very important role in salvation history, but the moment where you say that she redeemed anyone or helped redeem you have lost me. Christ alone redeemes.

Asked and answered.

 

[FCEGM]

Thanks Frances.

In rereading what I wrote I see that my theology was right, but my spelling and grammar were a tad off.

 

[Tomster]

That is exactly Church Doctrine. These problematic (in English) terms cause a great deal of harm, are not official Church teachings, and I will be glad when The Church has them completely suppressed.

Blessed Virgin Mary, beloved mother, pray for the Church to be given the Godly wisdom to suppress these false titles which cause so many to be turned away to Out Lords Holy Church.

Lord God, Heavenly Father, let this prayer be heard in your presence for it is offered through Christ our Lord.

The various offices which Mary fulfilled, of nourishing, tending, and loving the actual Body of her Divine Son, are still her offices in regard to each member of the Mystical Body, the least brethren as well as the most honorable. So that, when “the members are are mutually careful for another” (1 Corinthians 12:25), the do not act independently of Mary, even when, through thoughtlessness or ignorance, they fail to recognize her presence. They but join their efforts to Mary’s efforts. It is already her work, and she has been exquisitely busy on it from the time of the Annunciation to this very day. She it is who summons them to assist her. As it is her special and proper work, no one is able to take part in it save her gracious permission. Let those who attempt to serve their neighbor, and who yet narrow down the place and privileges of Mary, give a thought to this logical consequence of the doctrine of the Mystical Body. Still more, this doctrine has its lesson for those who profess to receive Scriptures, but who at the same time ignore or decry the Mother of God. Let such persons recall the Christ loved His Mother and was subject to her (Luke 2:51), and that His example obliges the members of His Mystical Body. “Thou shall honor . . . thy Mother” (Exodus 20:12). By divine command, they must render her a filial love. All generations are bound to bless that Mother. (Luke 1:48).

 

[Tomster]

That is exactly Church Doctrine. These problematic (in English) terms cause a great deal of harm, are not official Church teachings, and I will be glad when The Church has them completely suppressed.

Blessed Virgin Mary, beloved mother, pray for the Church to be given the Godly wisdom to suppress these false titles which cause so many to be turned away to Out Lords Holy Church.

Lord God, Heavenly Father, let this prayer be heard in your presence for it is offered through Christ our Lord.

Something for you to review.

St. Paul describes the union which exists between Christ and the baptised as being like the union between the head and the other members of the human body. Each has its own special purpose and work. Some parts are noble and some are less so; but all are dependent one upon the other, and the same life animates them all. All are put to loss by the failure of one, as all profit by the excellence of one.

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and His fulness (Ephesians 1:22-23). Christ is its Head, its chief, indispensible, and perfect part, from which all the other members of the body derive their powers, their very life. In Baptism we are attached to Christ by the most intimate ties imaginable. Realise, therefore, that mystical does not mean unreal. To use the vehement expression of Holy Scripture, “we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones” (Ephesians 5:30). Sacred obligations of love and of service are set up between the members and the Head, and between the members themselves. (1 John 4:15-21). The image of the body helps to a vivid realisation of those obligations, and this is half-way to the fulfillment of them.

This truth has been described as the central dogma of Christianity. For, in fact, all the supernatural life, all the graces conferred on man, are a fruit of the Redemption. The Redemption itself is based on the fact that Christ and the Church form together but a single mystical person, so that the satisfaction of Christ the Head, the infinite merits of His Passion, belong to His members, who are all the Faithful. This is the reason why our Lord could suffer for man and expiate faults which He had not Himself committed.

(cont.)

 

[Tomster]

That is exactly Church Doctrine. These problematic (in English) terms cause a great deal of harm, are not official Church teachings, and I will be glad when The Church has them completely suppressed.

Blessed Virgin Mary, beloved mother, pray for the Church to be given the Godly wisdom to suppress these false titles which cause so many to be turned away to Out Lords Holy Church.

Lord God, Heavenly Father, let this prayer be heard in your presence for it is offered through Christ our Lord.

"Christ is the Savior of His Body (Ephesians 5:23). The activity of the Mystical Body is the activity of Christ Himself. The faithful are incorporated into Him, and then live, suffer and die in Him, and in His resurrection rise again. Baptism only sanctifies because it established between Christ and the soul that vital connection by which the sanctity of the Head flows into its members. The other Sacraments, and above all the Divine Eucharist, exist for the purpose of intensifying the union between the Mystical Body and its Head. In addition, that union is deepened by the operations of faith and charity, by the bonds of government and mutual service in the Church, by labor and suffering rightly submitted to, and generally by every act of Christian life. Especially will all of these be effective when the soul acts in deliberate concert with Mary. Mary forms an eminent bond of union, due to her position as Mother of both Head and members. “We are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones” (Ephesians 5:30), and hence, with equal reality and fulness, children of Mary His Mother. The sole purpose of Mary’s existence is to conceive and bring forth the whole Christ, that is the Mystical Body with all its members perfect, and fitly joined together (Ephesians 4: 15-16), and one with its Head, Jesus Christ. Mary accomplishes this in co-operation with, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, Who is the life and soul of the Mystical Body. It is in her bosom and subject to her maternal care that the soul grows up in Chrsit and comes to the age of His fulness. (Ephesians 4:13-15)

Blessed Mother, Mediatrix of all graces, pray for us.

Blessed Mother, Co-Redemptrix, pray for us.

Blessed Mother, Mother of God, pray for us.

 

[Tomster]

Because Mary is Co-Redeemer par excellence.

Exactly!

 

[Tomster]

I’ll just be honest with you.
I dont understand your latin. Could you speak English.
Also, I asked you to say yes or no to a simple question which, in my oppinion, I posed in understandable Biblical language. Would you please answer?

Redemption means to buy free. Christ did that for us by means of giving His Body and Blood for our Salvation. He did this act alone and in capacity of being fully human and fully divine.
No one has redeemed me except from Him. Jesus opened the gates of heaven (also for Eve) You can give a whole lot of theological abstract language to explain why you think that Mary, having given birth to Jesus, has a very important role in salvation history, but the moment where you say that she redeemed anyone or helped redeem you have lost me. Christ alone redeemes.

Grace,

99 and 1/2% of my response was in English. The two latin terms condigno and de congruo were explained in English.

Please review my post.

 

[Tomster]

In rereading what I wrote I see that my theology was right, but my spelling and grammar were a tad off.

Thanks again Frances.

While doing some late night reading I came across this quotation:

“Mary, alone, doing the will of God is the Mother of Christ bodily; spiritually she is both sister and mother, and that woman alone ( illa una femina - the word illa or “that famous” marks her out from all other women and strengthens greatly the word una), not only spiritually, but also bodily, is mother and virgin. Surely she is not spiritually the Mother of our Head. Rather of him, the Savior, she is spiritually born, for she is among those who have believed in Him, among those who are rightly called ‘the children of the bridegroom.’ But in very truth she is spiritually the Mother of the members of our Head - that is of us - because by her charity she CO-OPERATED emph. mine ] in bringing about the birth in the Church of the faithful who are members of the Head; while bodily she is the Mother of the Head Himself.” St. Augustine - “De sancta virginitate”

 

[thirddec]

Dear GRACE I have no doubts about your scholorship and private thinking on the subject my only concern was that you continue to say the rosary even in the midst of all this confusion. By now you will know that I was absent from my faith for a long time and have a lot of catching up to do but I am convinced by personal experience of the power of the simple rosary where ever the power comes from.

Love and Respect:thumbsup:

 

[FCEGM]

Thanks again Frances.

While doing some late night reading I came across this quotation:

“Mary, alone, doing the will of God is the Mother of Christ bodily; spiritually she is both sister and mother, and that woman alone ( illa una femina - the word illa or “that famous” marks her out from all other women and strengthens greatly the word una), not only spiritually, but also bodily, is mother and virgin. Surely she is not spiritually the Mother of our Head. Rather of him, the Savior, she is spiritually born, for she is among those who have believed in Him, among those who are rightly called ‘the children of the bridegroom.’ But in very truth she is spiritually the Mother of the members of our Head - that is of us - because by her charity she CO-OPERATED emph. mine ] in bringing about the birth in the Church of the faithful who are members of the Head; while bodily she is the Mother of the Head Himself.” St. Augustine - “De sancta virginitate”

Ahhhh, beautiful!!

 

[Abu]

Tomster
“Mary, alone, doing the will of God is the Mother of Christ bodily; spiritually she is both sister and mother, and that woman alone ( illa una femina - the word illa or “that famous” marks her out from all other women and strengthens greatly the word una), not only spiritually, but also bodily, is mother and virgin. Surely she is not spiritually the Mother of our Head. Rather of him, the Savior, she is spiritually born, for she is among those who have believed in Him, among those who are rightly called ‘the children of the bridegroom.’ But in very truth she is spiritually the Mother of the members of our Head - that is of us - because by her charity she CO-OPERATED emph. mine ] in bringing about the birth in the Church of the faithful who are members of the Head; while bodily she is the Mother of the Head Himself.” St. Augustine - “De sancta virginitate”

Thanks Tomster – very pertinent to the discussion.