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Ignatius
Guest
Something for you to consider:
These problematic terms cause a great deal of harm, are not official Church teachings and their meaning in English borders on heresy. And, which is worse, they have kept many away from the Church that Marys Son founded for them. I will be glad when The Church has them completely suppressed.
Blessed Virgin Mary, beloved Mother, pray for the Church to be given the Godly wisdom to suppress these false titles which cause so many to be turned away to Out Lords Holy Church.
Lord God, Heavenly Father, let this prayer be heard in your presence for it is offered through Christ our Lord.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
I did miss a few posts Abu. Thank you for pointing that out.
I have no idea why the existing dogma is troublesome. I understand confusion over the potential for Co Redemptrix to be dogmatically defined for those who may either have a weak understanding of the existing dogma or a defiance towards it.
This in no way would be a deal breaker for me.
It does not in any way take anything from Jesus.
The believers who object to the existing dogma about Mary, may suffer from black and white thinking and a desire for easy answers. They may not feel comfortable in ambiguity. Some may percieve this as a direct attact on their savior somehow, causing them to react with what I believe is called by believers “righteous indignation”
Some may think that reaction is self righteous indignation.
So, if one rejects a standing dogma of the Church it would follow that they will not accept a development of the existing dogma they have rejected.
I do wonder how a catholic can reject any dogma, but that is neither here nor there.
I have no idea why the existing dogma is troublesome. I understand confusion over the potential for Co Redemptrix to be dogmatically defined for those who may either have a weak understanding of the existing dogma or a defiance towards it.
This in no way would be a deal breaker for me.
It does not in any way take anything from Jesus.
The believers who object to the existing dogma about Mary, may suffer from black and white thinking and a desire for easy answers. They may not feel comfortable in ambiguity. Some may percieve this as a direct attact on their savior somehow, causing them to react with what I believe is called by believers “righteous indignation”
Some may think that reaction is self righteous indignation.
So, if one rejects a standing dogma of the Church it would follow that they will not accept a development of the existing dogma they have rejected.
I do wonder how a catholic can reject any dogma, but that is neither here nor there.
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Abu
Guest
To reject a dogma is heresy – Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and Catholic faith.” (A dogma).
Public opposition to the Magisterium is dissent – “The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent. In fact this freedom does not indicate at all freedom with regard to the truth but signifies the free self-determination of the person in conformity with his moral obligation to accept the truth.” Donum Veritatis, (Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian) CDF, 1990, 36]. We have seen that Pope John Paul II has affirmed that dissent from the Magisterium poses an obstacle to reception of the sacraments, post #78.
Post #21 shows that even non-infallible doctrines require the “loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 25, and the infallible doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces requires the assent of ecclesial faith, as a secondary truth, “proposed definitively” (definitive proponuntur) to be “firmly embraced and held” (now Canon 750.2).
Public opposition to the Magisterium is dissent – “The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent. In fact this freedom does not indicate at all freedom with regard to the truth but signifies the free self-determination of the person in conformity with his moral obligation to accept the truth.” Donum Veritatis, (Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian) CDF, 1990, 36]. We have seen that Pope John Paul II has affirmed that dissent from the Magisterium poses an obstacle to reception of the sacraments, post #78.
Post #21 shows that even non-infallible doctrines require the “loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 25, and the infallible doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces requires the assent of ecclesial faith, as a secondary truth, “proposed definitively” (definitive proponuntur) to be “firmly embraced and held” (now Canon 750.2).
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GraceDK
Guest
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Abu
Guest
Co-redemptrix is a doctrine definitively taught – post #103, Fr Levis of EWTN.
Post #18 affirmed that: “There is no dogma on Mary as co-redemptrix, but as Fr William G Most affirms, Vatican II in *Lumen Gentium *(LG) 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught. The Council would (and could) not have so done if this was merely the expression of personal opinions by these Popes.”
“Therefore, one can say, she [that is, the Blessed Virgin] redeemed with Christ the human race.” Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter Inter soldalica, AAS 1918, 181.
Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, “Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity…In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.” (Inside the Vatican," 1997-JUL, Page 23)
all-about-the-virgin-mary.com/coredemptrix.html
The great saints, Church Fathers, theologians, and several popes, have spoken. “Mary Coredemptrix” is a clarion call that reverberates throughout hundreds of years of Church history, from as early as the second century, to the present Vicar of Christ.
Edouard Cardinal Gagnon, P.S.S., President Emeritus of the Pontifical Council for the Family and the Pontifical Committee for International Eucharistic Congresses:
“In truth, how can any faithful Catholic question the appropriateness of the Coredemptrix title as applied to our Blessed Mother when it has been pronounced by a litany of popes, saints, blessed, mystics, doctors of the Church, and conciliar theologians throughout the history of the Church, including Pope John Paul II…?”
Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis (EWTN) on Nov-22-2007:
“While Mary’s title of Co-Redemptrix has not been formally defined as dogma in the Church, it is accepted as part and parcel of good Mariology.”
Public opposition to the Magisterium is dissent – “The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent. In fact this freedom does not indicate at all freedom with regard to the truth but signifies the free self-determination of the person in conformity with his moral obligation to accept the truth.” Donum Veritatis, (Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian) CDF, 1990, 36]. We have seen that Pope John Paul II has affirmed that dissent from the Magisterium poses an obstacle to reception of the sacraments, post #78.
Post #21 shows that even non-infallible doctrines require the “loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium *25.
In the words of the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta, “Of course Mary is the Co-redemptrix - she gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us.” (Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Personal Interview, Calcutta, August 14th 1993).
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Tomster
Guest
It seems that these “certain terms” are causing you a great deal of trouble.
Suggestion: delve deeper into the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Roman Catechism, the Baltimore Catechism and the Church approved teachings from the Popes, the Fathers and the Saints. If done in humility, you will begin to understand.
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Tomster
Guest
Thanks again Abu. It seems our esteemed adversaries haven’t even bothered to reply to our posts let alone to the traditional teachings of the ordinary magisterium of the Church. They keep spewing the same nonsense over and over again.
Oh well, what’s the old saying, “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”?
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Tomster
Guest
“Blessed”?, “Mother”?, “Virgin”? I take it these are the only acceptable terms we may use in reference to Mary the Mother of God.
Hmmm . . . . Mary the Mother of God. Now there’s a title! Do you agree with that one Ignatius? Or does it border on heresy in your estimation? That is a title that has kept many non-Catholics away from the Church for a long time.
Tell us what you think of the title “Mary Mother of God” if you please.
Additionally, give your own list of acceptable and non-acceptable titles and, most importantly, why you think/believe so.
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thirddec
Guest
Maybe im missing something but I don’t believe there is anything troublesum in existing church dogma regarding the Blessed Virgin. The list of dogma is as far as I know
- Divine mother hood ( what’s Problem? Is Christ God and is Mary his mother?)
- Perpetual virginity ( if one had a problem what impact would it have on their faith overall ? apart from those not of the faith just wanting to play logic games. )
- Imaculate Conception ( even the muslims believe this one lol )
- Assumption ( same as for 2 )
Can some of you scholars enlighten me as to the time frames involved in the developement of the 1st 4) dogmas and the time scale that this co-redemtrix push has been ?
ans as i said before are we now setting up a queue of people before God we must go through starting with Mary ( Christ doesn’t as he is God ). Who is next St Peter?
I have a great deal of respect for devotion to Our Lady but on this I advise extreme caution and I see the church authority does as well as it keeps rejecting the idea. People here preach obedience to the church on matters of dogma. I would say inherent in this would also be to accept NO as an answer when given to an attemp to get something to be dogma.
Hail Mary full of Grace, Blessed art thou amoung women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, Pray for us sinners , now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Please don’t spoil this wonderfull prayer to the most Blessed Virgin Mary by these constant attempts to pressure the Church into a dogma it clearly isn’t happy with. If it should be a dogma then the Holy Spirit will sort it . In a manner consistent with the DIGNITY and PATIENCE of the church. We need to drop the squabble and leave the church some peace to think through the issues carefully and then accept its response.
Love and Respect
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Abu
Guest
Confusion will only obscure the light. Clear thinking and a resolve to banish prejudices, with obedience to the Magisterium, will reveal the light.
- Christ’s Church teaches that the Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:16). St. Paul says also, "through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.” (Eph 3:10). The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!
- She teaches that an infallible DOCTRINE is a category 2 truth which requires the assent of ecclesial faith, as a secondary truth, “proposed definitively” (definitive proponuntur) to be “firmly embraced and held” (now Canon 750.2), in Pope John Paul’s Motu Proprio (= on his own authority) Apostolic Letter Ad Tuendam Fidem, 1998.
In fact, the 1983 revision of Canon Law had replaced in #749.3 “dogmatically declared or defined” with “infallibly defined”, thus NOT expressing a limitation of infallibility to dogmas. ATF better enables Canon Law to apply to the understanding of infallibility including the Profession of Faith covering the two categories of infallible doctrine. - She teaches that the category 3 truths are non-definitive (non-infallible) DOCTRINES and require **intellectual assent ****(“loyal submission of the will and intellect”, ***Lumen Gentium *25), not an assent of faith. [See the Explanatory Note on ATF by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith].
Thus assent and obedience is required to ALL the DOCTRINAL teaching of the Church. The assent required for DOGMA is that of divine and Catholic faith.
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Ignatius
Guest
You are confused Abu. Fr. Levis clearly states that it is not a formally defined teaching. Neither Mother Teresa nor any of the other occasions you mentioned constitutes Authentic Catholic teaching.
So, having failed to convince the Magisterium to declare this as an authentic teaching, you are determined to declare it a Dogma yourself.
Sorry my friend, that is not how it works.
Please join us in offering up our prayers for the intention of the suppression of this problematic title that keeps so many away from The Catholic Church:
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus tu, Iesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen
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Abu
Guest
Read my lips – post #18: “There is no dogma on Mary as co-redemptrix” and as Ignatius is quite unable to show where Abu has even asked for this, much less declared it so, we see the unfortunate inability to reason with faith.
The Magisterium has, as shown by many, taught the doctrines both of Coredemptrix and of Mediatrix of all graces, and dissent on any doctrine renders the dissenter unfaithful.
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Elizium23
Guest
A while ago, I composed a list of Marian teachings that defined Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix. I am still awaiting a refutation of any or all the sources contained. I also highly recommend reading the rest of the thread (all 68 pages) because we have been down this road before.
Catholic Marian teaching: a summary of Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix
Catholic Marian teaching: a summary of Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix
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Tomster
Guest
The reason you are not getting a response is because there are no refutations to be had. It’s just that simple.
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thirddec
Guest
I am finding ABU’s post confusing; is he trying to say that Co-Redemtrix is a DOGMA. If he isn’t why is he trying to tell us to adhere to Dogma. My post was to emphasise that it is not Dogma and that respect for the Magesterium of the Church is also in being patient and let it decide in it’s own good time what is Dogma rather than trying to run some sort of propaganda campaign to influence it like some type of parlimentary debate. The only influence should be the HOLY SPIRIT. Also respect of the Magesterium should be to accept DOGMA as recieved and also to accept NO when told too.
It seems to me there are a lot of people out there who can’t accept NO and don’t see a problem with this.
Please read again the 4 church dogmatic doctrines on Mary ; if there is another maybe you should inform the POPE.
Love and Respect
It seems to me there are a lot of people out there who can’t accept NO and don’t see a problem with this.
Please read again the 4 church dogmatic doctrines on Mary ; if there is another maybe you should inform the POPE.
Love and Respect
L
Liam_Kricc
Guest
The statement above is not a faithful or accurate witness to the Catholic faith.
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Abu
Guest
You have confused yourself.
- All dogma has to be believed on divine and Catholic faith.
- Infallible doctrine has to be firmly embraced and held.
- Non-infallible doctrine has to be assented to intellectually – with submission of intellect and will.
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