Co redemptrix dogmatically defined?

[TrueLight]

**John 2: **

[39] When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. [40] And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

[41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

[49] “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Co-Redemptrix?

 

[StrawberryJam]

**John 2: **

[39] When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. [40] And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

[41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

[49] “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Co-Redemptrix?

Who are you replying to and how do you think you are on topic?

 

[TrueLight]

Who are you replying to and how do you think you are on topic?

The topic is co-redemptrix dogmatically defined. I don’t think it should be and I stated so in a post right before this one.

I posted that scripture to show that Jesus’ parents, Joseph and Mary were human beings blessed with a divine child who were still learning about his nature in those verses.

Neither of them were co-redemptrices.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The topic is co-redemptrix dogmatically defined. I don’t think it should be and I stated so in a post right before this one.

I posted that scripture to show that Jesus’ parents, Joseph and Mary were human beings blessed with a divine child who were still learning about his nature in those verses.

Neither of them were co-redemptrices.

I understand. In the Catholic Church, this is not dogmatically defined so there is nothing to worry about.
I am not sure that your scripture really does make an argument against the possibility of it, but it is beside the point. The OP has had the answer that this issue is not dogmatically defined or required for belief.

 

[GraceDK]

I have read the many wonderfully thought out arguements and discussions in this thread but was dissappointed by only one comment ( in an otherwise well thought out response which i could agree with ). The comment was I think you are a protestant. I see no reason for labeling anyone anything ; it doesn’t add to the discussion and any discussion should be informed by the arguements and evidence cited rather than the source.

Just an additional thought not scriptural or traditional ; just a personal observation.
Christ is in heaven until Judgement day and Mary has no limitations so could Jesus be using Mary as a mediator between him and the world in order to continue to try and help us through the crises present and coming in a way the Holy Spirit could not. This then would make sense out of the Marian Apparitions authenticated.

Plz don’t bite my head off on this one

Dear brother or sister.

One is omni-present. God. No one else.
Jesus doesn’t need Mary as a mediator in any way. She is, as a creature who needed salvation, totally unequipped to be redeemer. Only Jesus redeems and can redeem. The Bible is clear: There is ONE mediator between man and God, namely Christ.
It also says, we have ONE high priest who made a once for all sacrifice and who has total understanding of us, knows the depth of our souls, and that is Christ. And only Him, God is the only one who knows the depth of a man’s soul.
The New Testament is clear. Please read it.
Christ has born your sins up on the cross… He is intimately familiar with every sin you ever comitted. He doesn’t need anyone to appease Him, He died for you and knows you completely the way you are. “He died for us while we were still sinners”.
The Bible says that because he became like us in all things, He can also have compassion for us.
In other words… you don’t need anyone to straighten your wrinkles… Only Jesus can do it, and He knows everyone of them.
God is Omnipotent. How can you imply that a mere creature can come in ways that the very Spirit of God cannot?
I don’t know what to say to you. I am saddened and disapointed in your post. I hope you will read the Word of God.

 

[GraceDK]

I have a question about this, if you don’t mind me asking you.

The grace to come to Jesus.

What do you mean by this? Do you believe Jesus is God?

God is the source of grace. He is the grace-giver.
He gives you the grace to know Him… conversion grace which leads to faith and acts of faith.
Do you read your New Testament on a regular basis? Because if you do, it will not surprise you that I say that the Holy Spirit reveals Christ’s identity to us. No one else can do it…

I believe in the divinity of Christ. It is quite clear from Scripture.
As Jesus said: “Before Abraham, I Am”.

 

[Tomster]

Some controversial points to add to the discussion:

(1) May Mary be called Mediatrix between God and men, like Jesus Christ and subordinately to Him?

(2) May Mary be called truly Co-Redemptrix together with Christ, in the sense that she has addded efficaciously, on her own part, works of her own to the work of the Redeemer?

(3) Given that Redemption consists in the condign satisfaction and merit of Christ, can it be said that Mary, together with Christ, has satisfied the divine justice with her sufferings and has merited for us grace and salvation?

Some theologians, adhering closely to Tradition, answer negatively, fearing to take from the dignity of the one Mediator and true Redeemer, and out of reverence for the classical thesis of the necessity of the Incarnation.

Others follow the affirmative position, utilizing also recent pontifical documents (St. Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI) which seem to favor this second opinion.

And another bit of information for one and all.

BTW- Are there any Catholics out there who are aware that there is a special votive Mass in the Tridentine Missal of 1962 dedicated to Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces?

 

[GraceDK]

Tomster;

(1) May Mary be called Mediatrix between God and men, like Jesus Christ and subordinately to Him?

GraceDK: No we dont need another mediator. To say that, is to say Christ is not sufficient. He is.

(2) May Mary be called truly Co-Redemptrix together with Christ, in the sense that she has addded efficaciously, on her own part, works of her own to the work of the Redeemer?

Christ alone redeemes from sin. You cannot, by all your virtues and prayers, redeem a single soul because no matter what a creature does it cannot in any way make a bridge over the gab between man and God that was created by original sin. Only God as God, suffering and loving and having the divine purity, goodness and justice, can do that.

(3) Given that Redemption consists in the condign satisfaction and merit of Christ, can it be said that Mary, together with Christ, has satisfied the divine justice with her sufferings and has merited for us grace and salvation?

No she is not able to satisty divine justice. She is a mere creature and suffers not divinely. Only Christ carried the cross and all the sins of the world up upon the cross. He did that ALONE. Mary was and is fully human, not divine. She suffered as a mother, a creature. Not as God who can take the sins of the world on Himself. I feel you offend Christianity but even suggesting anything else.

Some theologians, adhering closely to Tradition, answer negatively, fearing to take from the dignity of the one Mediator and true Redeemer, and out of reverence for the classical thesis of the necessity of the Incarnation.

They should fear alot… looking at your post also makes me fear.

BTW- Are there any Catholics out there who are aware that there is a special votive Mass in the Tridentine Missal of 1962 dedicated to Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces?

Such a title can very easily be misused and misunderstood. As mother of Jesus, giving birth to Jesus who is our Redeemer she cooperated in bringing our Saviour into the world by her humility. He did the work, but she humbly said yes to cooperate. She is great because God has done great things to her. But I think you are bordering on beliefs that are in contrast with the New Testament which I therefore urge you to study. You have given me more than enough evidence that the faithful can be led astray by exaggerated tites for non-divine persons.

 

[Tomster]

Tomster;

(1) May Mary be called Mediatrix between God and men, like Jesus Christ and subordinately to Him?

GraceDK: No we dont need another mediator. To say that, is to say Christ is not sufficient. He is.

(2) May Mary be called truly Co-Redemptrix together with Christ, in the sense that she has addded efficaciously, on her own part, works of her own to the work of the Redeemer?

Christ alone redeemes from sin. You cannot, by all your virtues and prayers, redeem a single soul because no matter what a creature does it cannot in any way make a bridge over the gab between man and God that was created by original sin. Only God as God, suffering and loving and having the divine purity, goodness and justice, can do that.

(3) Given that Redemption consists in the condign satisfaction and merit of Christ, can it be said that Mary, together with Christ, has satisfied the divine justice with her sufferings and has merited for us grace and salvation?

No she is not able to satisty divine justice. She is a mere creature and suffers not divinely. Only Christ carried the cross and all the sins of the world up upon the cross. He did that ALONE. Mary was and is fully human, not divine. She suffered as a mother, a creature. Not as God who can take the sins of the world on Himself. I feel you offend Christianity but even suggesting anything else.

Some theologians, adhering closely to Tradition, answer negatively, fearing to take from the dignity of the one Mediator and true Redeemer, and out of reverence for the classical thesis of the necessity of the Incarnation.

They should fear alot… looking at your post also makes me fear.

BTW- Are there any Catholics out there who are aware that there is a special votive Mass in the Tridentine Missal of 1962 dedicated to Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces?

Such a title can very easily be misused and misunderstood. As mother of Jesus, giving birth to Jesus who is our Redeemer she cooperated in bringing our Saviour into the world by her humility. He did the work, but she humbly said yes to cooperate. She is great because God has done great things to her. But I think you are bordering on beliefs that are in contrast with the New Testament which I therefore urge you to study. You have given me more than enough evidence that the faithful can be led astray by exaggerated tites for non-divine persons.

I would suggest to you that you review Mary’s greatest privilege that being the Mother of God and hope that you rethink your position.

 

[GraceDK]

I would suggest to you that you review Mary’s greatest privilege that being the Mother of God and hope that you rethink your position.

I am aware that Mary is Mother of God.
I am also aware that Christ alone redeemed mankind, which is clear from the Bible. If you are in disagreement with my above points then please prove from any binding church document (preferably the Bible ) that Mary has any power to do the redemptive act which Jesus did on the cross in His capacity of being fully God and fully man.

 

[Tomster]

I am aware that Mary is Mother of God.
I am also aware that Christ alone redeemed mankind, which is clear from the Bible. If you are in disagreement with my above points then please prove from any binding church document (preferably the Bible ) that Mary has any power to do the redemptive act which Jesus did on the cross in His capacity of being fully God and fully man.

Read closely please.

Co-Redemptrix is a title used to express the co-operation of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the work of Redemption performed by Christ. The idea of Mary’s co-operation in our salvation is as old as Christianity and has its dogmatic foundations in the divine maternity, through which both Christ and His work belong, in a certain sense, to Mary, who conceived, bore, and nourished the Redeemer, and in addition offered Him in the Temple and suffered with Him, shared with Him spiritually His martyrlike death on the cross. Such is the classic, indisputable doctrine.

 

[Tomster]

I am aware that Mary is Mother of God.
I am also aware that Christ alone redeemed mankind, which is clear from the Bible. If you are in disagreement with my above points then please prove from any binding church document (preferably the Bible ) that Mary has any power to do the redemptive act which Jesus did on the cross in His capacity of being fully God and fully man.

Here are some doctrinal points which are considered certain:

(1) Mary, as Mother of Christ, is a partaker of His life and His works and so, in a broad sense, may be called Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix.

(2) In the designs of God, Mary is associated with Christ in the triumph over sin, as Eve joined with Adam in the ruin of the human race.

(3) Mary consented to the passion and death of Christ, adding to them her own maternal anguish, thus meriting (de congruo) the prerogative of treasurer and distributor of the fruits of the Redemption. This doctrine is founded on Holy Scripture and is extensively developed by the Fathers. The magisterium of the Church has always taught it.

 

[GraceDK]

Here are some doctrinal points which are considered certain:

(1) Mary, as Mother of Christ, is a partaker of His life and His works and so, in a broad sense, may be called Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix.

(2) In the designs of God, Mary is associated with Christ in the triumph over sin, as Eve joined with Adam in the ruin of the human race.

(3) Mary consented to the passion and death of Christ, adding to them her own maternal anguish, thus meriting (de congruo) the prerogative of treasurer and distributor of the fruits of the Redemption. This doctrine is founded on Holy Scripture and is extensively developed by the Fathers. The magisterium of the Church has always taught it.

In other words you believe that Christ did not fully atone for your sins, but a creature helped to atone and open the way of heaven and reconcile man with the Father?
yes or no?

 

[Iotaunum]

**John 2: **

[39] When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. [40] And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

[41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

[49] “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Co-Redemptrix?

These passages from St Luke do not disprove that our Lady is co-redemptrix. Catholicism is the only truly biblical faith. Therefore, nothing in the Scriptures can contradict Catholic doctrine and vice-versa. What is certain is that the most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin." Of all created creatures, Mary has the biggest role by far in the salvation of Souls. From all eternity God decided that to this creature alone would He give this special grace- i.e to be free from all sin, original and actual. Mary co operated with this grace and God Himself took flesh in her immaculate and sinless womb. Christ did not take flesh from a sinner. Thus, what a lot of protestants misunderstand is that Mary WAS saved by God, but in a different manner from all others. Everyone was born with original sin, but Christ chose to give the grace to Mary to be immaculately conceived, so that he was born from the perfect Mother, and did not take flesh from a Sinner. Thus, even though Mary is sinless, God is still her savior.

Mary’s role in salvation history cannot be overestimated. Catholics DO NOT believe that she is God or is equal to God. She is a creature. Anyone with half a brain and a baltimore catechism will realise this. However, some Catholics have called her co- redepmtrix - not because she saved anyone apart from God - nor does she act independently of Christ. But in fact she co-operated when she agreed to give birth to Christ, she co-operated with God faithfully her whole life, and Christ chose to take His Mother Body and soul into heaven and make her Queen of Heaven. Her power of intercession with her Son is greater than any other creature. Thus many have been brought to the Truth and accepted Christ as a direct result of her intercession. We ask our lady to pray for us to her Son becuase her intercession is so powerful. Thus, in an orthodox sense “co-redemptrix” can be interpreted in keeping with Catholic doctrine. When taken to mean something more it becomes heretical. This, I believe, is why the issue is so divisive.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Some controversial points to add to the discussion:

(1) May Mary be called Mediatrix between God and men, like Jesus Christ and subordinately to Him?

Yes, Mary is Mediatrix of All Graces.
St. Bernardine of Siena:

Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.

(2) May Mary be called truly Co-Redemptrix together with Christ, in the sense that she has addded efficaciously, on her own part, works of her own to the work of the Redeemer?

Col 1:23-24:

If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

What St. Paul says of himself is most perfectly applicable to Our Lady, who suffered in perfect union with Christ throughout her life and especially at the Crucifixion.

What the Blessed Virgin suffered was the birth pangs of the Church. In doing so, she did “fill up those things that were wanting of the sufferings of Christ in her flesh (and soul), for his body, which is the church”.
Apoc 12:1-2:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: and being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

(3) Given that Redemption consists in the condign satisfaction and merit of Christ, can it be said that Mary, together with Christ, has satisfied the divine justice with her sufferings and has merited for us grace and salvation?

Mary’s obedience, which involved suffering, was the satisfaction for Eve’s disobedience. But just as Eve’s disobedience did not directly involve the fall of the human race, Mary’s obedience did not directly involve the redemption of the human race. However, it was fitting for Mary to satisfy for the sin of Eve.

Some theologians, adhering closely to Tradition, answer negatively, fearing to take from the dignity of the one Mediator and true Redeemer, and out of reverence for the classical thesis of the necessity of the Incarnation.

who?]

BTW- Are there any Catholics out there who are aware that there is a special votive Mass in the Tridentine Missal of 1962 dedicated to Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces?

O Lord Jesus Christ, our Mediator with the Father, Who hast appointed the most Blessed Virgin, Thy Mother, to be also our Mother, and our mediatrix with Thee: grant that whosoever sall approach Thee for some favor, may rejoice at obtaining all things through her: Who livest and reignest with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.

 

[thirddec]

in reply to Grace i believe ; all i’m doing is placing some thoughts out there to be explored,

but in reply to how Mary can come to us in ways the Holy Spirit can’t is that Mary can come to us as a Human being who has lived a full life ; experienced herself human suffering first hand; was the closest human being to Christ for a large part of his life; Was one of the 2 people specifically spoken to by Christ on the cross and is now experiencing the new life in Heaven. Christ can’t ( won’t) do this as he won’t be back till the end of the world, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work this way. I don’t need a lecture on reading the bible or how to build my faith. But I believe in a growing faith and I explore ideas from where I am and what I see and hear. A little respect and humility goes a long way to learning and also in Evangelising too.

If the World was in desperate need of spiritual guidance then I wouldn,t doubt that Christ would do whatever he could to help including sending a Kind ,sensative and maternal soul like his mother to help.

I don’t say this is the case but it’s not beyond the realm of possability and could help explain the approved Apparitions. If they are not from God even the approved ones would have to be of the Devil.

Now I’ve had my reply, I apologise for being a little Irked but I still struggle with Humility too .

Peace ,Love and Respect

 

[thirddec]

Ps.

I can see no good reason to introduce a Co Redemptrix doctrine into the church doctrine whether it can be defined in scripture or not. There would be nothing to gain and everything to loose. I can’t see why even the most ardent Mariologist can’t see this.
What exactly does Co Redemptrix offer that Queen of Heaven doesn’t. If I were the Devil and wanted to create as much mischief as possible you couldn’t find a better way. Even better than Paedophile Priests. As far as I know Mary has never at any approved apparition ever asked for Titles ; just asked us to pray; pray ; pray. Maybe if we all me included just dropped this debate and prayed in the time wasted we would actually achieve something more positive.

Love and Respect

 

[thirddec]

youtube.com/watch?v=0t2q0XDDf90 No sweeter Name - Kari Jobe

GraceDK just spotted this at bottom of your post. The spirit moves in mysterious ways; I had just found that clip only hours before reading your reply. I think it’s Great and would encourage everyone to put it on faves. I’m a big music fan and still think its not only a Positve message its totally contemporary in composition. Maybe we should start a thread for really good upto date songs with positive messages for all. I would start with

Have I told you lately— Van Morrison
but top of my list would still be Amazing Grace played on bagpipes

Love and Respect.

 

[GraceDK]

thirddec;
in reply to Grace i believe ; all i’m doing is placing some thoughts out there to be explored,
but in reply to how Mary can come to us in ways the Holy Spirit can’t is that Mary can come to us as a Human being who has lived a full life ;

GraceDK: So did Jesus.
Again you have to read in the Bible, it says that Jesus has become like us in ALL things except sin, it says He alone knows what is in the heart of man, and that He has compassion. Your saying that Mary needs to be your advocate and she can understand you more than Jesus is just wrong and its very sad to see how far you have gone with those thoughts.

experienced herself human suffering first hand;

Not as much as Jesus. He carried every little sin of yours up on that Cross. He alone did that. No body was with Him as He carried the sins of mankind. He is the Lamb of God… and the Only Lamb of God.

was the closest human being to Christ for a large part of his life;

She was closest to Christ for most of his life, yes probably, but not closer to Chist than Christ was to Himself.

Was one of the 2 people specifically spoken to by Christ on the cross and is now experiencing the new life in Heaven.

Yes.

Christ can’t ( won’t) do this as he won’t be back till the end of the world,

**Huh? Oh boy… I don’t mind if you don’t like me saying this but you REALLY gotta study your Bible. Jesus said: “I am with you always, untill the end of time”. **

the Holy Spirit doesn’t work this way.

He doesn’t work in this way???
“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you”. Jesus said: “I will not leave you fatherless” and "I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

I don’t need a lecture on reading the bible or how to build my faith. But I believe in a growing faith and I explore ideas from where I am and what I see and hear. A little respect and humility goes a long way to learning and also in Evangelising too.

You wish to evangelise? That is good, me too. First we need to not put any creature in the place of God or say there are things God cannot do. We need to know our Bible and we need to know that the Holy Spirit is a Person and at the same time the Spirit of Christ: He knows everything about you like only God can, He accepts to help you and comfort you and lead you even though you are imperfect. He is your teacher and guide.

If the World was in desperate need of spiritual guidance then I wouldn,t doubt that Christ would do whatever he could to help including sending a Kind ,sensative and maternal soul like his mother to help.

I believe God sends His saints to us too. I have no problem with that. But what you are doing, it seems to me, is that you have lost faith in the all powerful compassion and understanding of Christ, have little faith in the Holy Spirit as a person in your life, but have placed a creature in His place.

I don’t say this is the case but it’s not beyond the realm of possability and could help explain the approved Apparitions. If they are not from God even the approved ones would have to be of the Devil.

**I think some Marian appariotions are probably authentic. However, the Gospel must be the absolute center of life. I speak from experience, there was a time where I was swamped in all kinds of private revelations and I lost sight of the essential Gospel. I must with shame confess that I spoke to strangers more about these apparitions than I did about Christ and his Saving work on the Cross. **

Now I’ve had my reply, I apologise for being a little Irked but I still struggle with Humility too .

I appreciate your honesty and I don’t mind it. Your post just really proves my point… and so it saddens me, because I can have no real unity with you in evangelisation, if you believe that Mary has to do the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit because they can’t.

 

[Tomster]

In other words you believe that Christ did not fully atone for your sins, but a creature helped to atone and open the way of heaven and reconcile man with the Father?
yes or no?

I never said that.