I just asked this question in my post right above. It seems my inclination on EO belief may be right. So the soul’s fate isn’t necessarily set in stone at death then. Hmmm. Not sure I can agree with that concept.In Eastern theology we still believe that those who are have a foretaste of Hell or on the cusp of hell can still be saved through prayers and fasting and most of all God’s infinit mercy. We seem to have more wiggle room than you do with this belief of Purgatory.
Has this teaching been official promulgated by an ecumenical council, or is it just “personal opinion” which contradicts the “personal opinion” of Mark of Ephesus:You miss the (most important) point.
When people leave Purgatory, or leave the state that purgatory is, it is like having "graduated’ to heavenly bliss.
In eastern the concept one does not graduate into heaven from another supernatural state (unless they are somehow sprung from Hell).
We are created beings, and therefore not ever perfect. The deifiying process continues in the light of God indefinitely (or essentially…forever). The only perfection is God, and we should never cease to become more Godlike…and never finish.
Therefore there is no “Final Theosis”, no end to that process. What Dragani is (mistakenly) trying to associate is Heaven according to our understanding with the Latin construct of Purgatory. The whole idea makes no sense whatever.
How does what I have stated contradict these opinions…can you be more specific…or are you reading them with Latin colored glasses?Has this teaching been official promulgated by an ecumenical council, or is it just “personal opinion” which contradicts the “personal opinion” of Mark of Ephesus:
“But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones [what Catholics call “venial sins”] over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which - even though they have repented over them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.”
…and the pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem:
“And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance…of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence…”
…and St. Clement of Alexandria:
“The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment,taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism.He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one”
and St. Gregory the Great:
“As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.”
Why should I believe your “opinion” instead of the above?
They imply “graduating from one supernatural state to another”, especially the formulation from the Council of Jerusalem, which talks about being released “from thence”.How does what I have stated contradict these opinions…can you be more specific…or are you reading them with Latin colored glasses?
It appears the Maronite belief isn’t contrary to Catholic faith. I did a quick google search on “Maronite Purgatory” and came up with an interesting name for a Maronite church:When I was a younger Maronite, we were taught that after death, all souls waited in Sheol for the final judgement. Very Oriental belief.
Is this enough to qualify for purgatory?
Peace and God Bless.
I do have one question. St. Clement speaks of enduring torture punishment:The Latin theory of “purgatory” is not a part of the Eastern Christian tradition.
Now, it is true that Western Christians will often take quotations from the Church Fathers (normally ripping them from their proper context) and use them in order to support the theory of a “purgatory” of sorts, whether it is thought of as a “place” of punishment and suffering, or a “state” or “condition” of suffering prior to entrance into heavenly bliss, but the quotations do not actually support that later Western theoretical construct; instead, the Eastern Fathers speak about the infinite progress of the blessed in heaven as they move from mansion to mansion and become more and more divine. An example of what I am talking about can be seen in the quotation taken from the writings of Clement of Alexandria found in an earlier post in this thread, because when the quotation is read in its proper context it is clear that Clement is not talking about an intermediate state of existence before heaven, but he is speaking of heaven itself, in which the blessed move from mansion to mansion, and glory to glory (cf., Book VI of the Stromata). In other words, Clement of Alexandria supports what I have talked about before in this thread, that is, what the East calls “the doctrine of epektasis” (i.e., the infinite stretching of man into God). Thus, as far as the Eastern Churches are concerned there is no intermediate state of existence between heaven and hell; and in fact, the only such state of existence described by scripture came to an end when the abode of the righteous dead of the Old Testament (i.e., hades) was emptied at the time of Christ’s resurrection.
If this is your definition of purgatory, then it is acceptable to the Orthodox.“In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning “purgatory”: 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.”
As much as I’d like it to be, I don’t think that corresponds to Latin theology with respect to the particular judgment.When I was a younger Maronite, we were taught that after death, all souls waited in Sheol for the final judgement. Very Oriental belief.
Is this enough to qualify for purgatory?
Peace and God Bless.
Rich has pointed out in the Assumption discussion which is underway that without a formal infallible definition nothing may be claimed as doctrine. It may be both asserted and denied.As much as I’d like it to be, I don’t think that corresponds to Latin theology with respect to the particular judgment.
The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God. Although there has been no formal definition on this point,.
Well, I’m not going to comment on what somebody said on another thread, whether right or wrong. I would point out though that there are different degrees of theological certainty when it comes to doctrine. For instance, the doctrine of the particular judgment is one proximate to the faith - sententia fidei proxima - (according to Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma), meaning that most theologians deem it to be revealed truth, but no formal Church declaration (whether through council or by a Pope ex cathedra) has affirmed this. Therefore, it could conceivably be altered by a formal declaration of the Church. Whether or not I’m required to assent to a particular doctrine is a different question.[/INDENT]Rich has pointed out in the Assumption discussion which is underway that without a formal infallible definition nothing may be claimed as doctrine. It may be both asserted and denied.
But is is denied by Catholics in the Eastern branches of your Church and their denial is permitted by Rome.As for purgatory, “[t]he souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De fide.)” Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 482 (1974). Since this is a statement of faith, it is incorrigible and unchangeable and must be believed by all of the faithful…
Ott seems unaware of papal teaching on the existence of purgatorial fire. Pope Innocent IV writes of it and in the context of the Greeks.I found a very interesting comment from Ott while looking into this: “The Latin Fathers and the Schoolmen, and many theologians of modern times, in view of I Cor. 3, 15, assume a physical fire. However, the biblical foundation for this is inadequate. Out of consideration for the separated Greeks, who reject the notion of purifying fire, the official declarations of the Councils speak only of purifying punishments . . . .” Food for thought.
Father Paul O’Sullivan in his book: READ ME OR RUE IT (Imprimatur Joannes Timotheus, Archiepiscopus) also teaches that there is a cleansing fire.So there’s the dilemma for our Catholic friends! Do they accept the papal teaching or do they reject it and accept Ott instead?
I highly doubt it from what I’ve seen here so far.But is is denied by Catholics in the Eastern branches of your Church and their denial is permitted by Rome.
Please link directly to the site where you found this. 1274 is the Second Council of Lyons by the way.Ott seems unaware of papal teaching on the existence of purgatorial fire. Pope Innocent IV writes of it and in the context of the Greeks.
Concerning the fire of purgatory, Innocent IV (Councils of Lyons (1274)) wrote:
“Forasmuch as (the Greeks) say that this place of purification is not indicated by their doctors by an appropriate and accurate word, we will, in accordance with the tradition and authority of the holy fathers, that henceforth it be I called purgatorium, for **in this temporary fire **are cleansed not deadly capital sins, which must be remitted by penance, but those lesser venial sins which, if not removed in life, afflict men after death.”
Cannot help at the moment. I have a myriad of posts archived from Catholic Forums. My own normally have a reference but this came from a Catholic contrbutor without one.Please link directly to the site where you found this. 1274 is the Second Council of Lyons by the way.