Co-Worker Hearing Voices

[LordLove7_11_11]

You are still required to do standard procedure before taking any action. That requires a valid, psychological evaluation and that is something you have openly rejected on the grounds of it being “worldly opinion”.

Furthermore, I cannot understand why you fail to realize the hint. I don’t take kindly to condescending people who think their superior spirituality gives them grounds to question other Catholics faithfulness to Church teaching. Prior to this post and the previous one, I have only stuck to criticizing your rationale. I did not put your adherence to Church teaching to the test. If you don’t wish to be offended then don’t offend others either.

You can offend me all you want, but I would prefer not to be disrespected. You seemed to disagree with the concept I mentioned of praying unceasingly, so I pointed that out. This is something the Church teaches, so if you disagree with it I don’t have to question your faithfulness to the teaching in that area, as if it were a matter of opinion or up for debate, it just is what it is and you don’t agree.

Know that I have no reason to think I’m superior in any way, nor do I, and do not wish to be condescending whatsoever. However, I am not concerned with offending someone as long as I am speaking truthfully. It may offend someone that I call abortion murder, but oh well, the truth hurts. If I say something isn’t in line with Church teaching, that’s because it isn’t, whether it offends or not.

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

Yes thats true, I meant to give her holy water but let her think its regular water.

“You look tired… Here, drink this cup of water I just happen to have handy! No, I haven’t drank from it, I just thought you looked dehydrated. Go on, DRINK!”

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Jesus Christ gave the power to expel demons to all who believe in Him and act in His name. We can do this through deliverance prayers. I am not aware of any prerequisites for psychological evaluations.

It’s standard procedure. I have a book written by an exorcist that dictates such and if you people really insist on taking exorcists so seriously (as I’ve seen many times on this thread even to the point that I find it troublesome) then I don’t see why you should stop now.

Furthermore, as Roxy stated, we cannot be sure as only priests have the sufficient knowledge (at least they should) that surpasses us regular folks with regards to dealing with demonic forces. Common sense would call us to consult them lest we end up doing something rash.

It may offend someone that I call abortion murder, but oh well, the truth hurts. If I say something isn’t in line with Church teaching, that’s because it isn’t, whether it offends or not.

And I say again, you are being reckless with your pursuit because you are not following standard procedure. I mean did you even consult your priest (or any priest) on this matter? I tell you now, that since you are so adamantly against consulting a medical professional, then at least consult a professional you only seem to trust (even though I’m willing to bet he’d also assume a psychological disorder, if the experiences of the exorcists I’ve read about are to be believed).

You can offend me all you want, but I would prefer not to be disrespected.

However, I am not concerned with offending someone as long as I am speaking truthfully.

These statements make you out as very hypocritical. Do I see a double standard here? You don’t care to offend someone so long as you believe you speak the truth yet cry foul when someone says things that he/she believes to be the truth that offends you?

Like it or not, you are deliberately taking things into your own hands. This is real life, not some Christian fantasy where everyone like your co-worker is Satan’s stooge. She’s a person too and I think you, as a human being, much more a Christian one, have every obligation to treat her as humanely as possible regardless of her beliefs. Part of that is approaching the problem sensibly.

 

[MtnDwellar]

It’s standard procedure. I have a book written by an exorcist that dictates such and if you people really insist on taking exorcists so seriously (as I’ve seen many times on this thread even to the point that I find it troublesome) then I don’t see why you should stop now.

Furthermore, as Roxy stated, we cannot be sure as only priests have the sufficient knowledge (at least they should) that surpasses us regular folks with regards to dealing with demonic forces. Common sense would call us to consult them lest we end up doing something rash.

Please tell us what book you read and where the author dictates that a psychological exam is needed before deliverance prayer. I suspect that you are mistaken. I consider your statements heresy. They keep one from performing the actions that Christ directed us to perform. Your statements weaken the Church in her fight against the devil.

Deliverance and healing are closely related. I do not need to know the root of someone’s problem before I pray for them. God knows. Common sense does not tell me to consult with a priest. Christ told us to cast out demons in His name.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Please tell us what book you read and where the author dictates that a psychological exam is needed before deliverance prayer. I suspect that you are mistaken. I consider your statements heresy. They keep one from performing the actions that Christ directed us to perform. Your statements weaken the Church in her fight against the devil.

The book is titled: Exorcism: Encounters with the Paranormal and the Occult

And saying my statements are heresy and somewhat ‘weakening’ is quite condescending of you. How is promoting sensibility in approaching the mentally insane ‘heretical’? Are we to justify the image of an anti-scientific Church?

Deliverance and healing are closely related. I do not need to know the root of someone’s problem before I pray for them. God knows. Common sense does not tell me to consult with a priest. Christ told us to cast out demons in His name.

Point out where I said a person couldn’t pray for anyone. That is different from administering exorcism. Only a qualified priest may do such things and there is very limited power to those outside the priesthood. You cannot cast out demons, only priests can with the authority of a bishop. That is basic Exorcism 101.

If I didn’t know any better, I would say you were heretical in implying that anyone can be an exorcist.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

:slapfight:

Wow. If I fancy myself a peacemaker, then I see this and red flags go up. First, I make the assumption that both parties involved are good, conscientious Catholics, and that neither of you have the specific intention of dismissing or insulting the other. Second, I have to believe that I’m right or my efforts are doomed. :hug3:

Let me demonstrate how one former “psycho” thinks when viewing a slapfight. Sometimes it takes a mind that’s used to going off in tangents that nobody else’s does, because it might just see something important that others are unable to see.

Then if my ideas are beneficial, we might reflect upon whether someone else’s mental illness is necessarily a problem that we need to fix.

Furthermore, I cannot understand why you fail to realize the hint. I don’t take kindly to condescending people who think their superior spirituality gives them grounds to question other Catholics faithfulness to Church teaching. Prior to this post and the previous one, I have only stuck to criticizing your rationale. I did not put your adherence to Church teaching to the test. If you don’t wish to be offended then don’t offend others either.

OK, LW opens with an assertion that to express a different opinion can, at least in some cases and certainly in this situation, result in judging other Catholic’s “purity.” LW finishes the move by establishing a principal that is probably one we can agree on, basically an instance of the Golden Rule.

You can offend me all you want, but I would prefer not to be disrespected.

LL counters with a move designed to make a distinction between to behaviors that should not be confused. At this point, it is speculation on the part of this observer to imagine examples showing the distinction in a practical sense that can result in a better discussion.

Let’s remember that distinction; it’s likely to become important.

Know that I have no reason to think I’m superior in any way, nor do I, and do not wish to be condescending whatsoever. However, I am not concerned with offending someone as long as I am speaking truthfully. It may offend someone that I call abortion murder, but oh well, the truth hurts. If I say something isn’t in line with Church teaching, that’s because it isn’t, whether it offends or not.

Then LL continues by expressing a wish not to come across a certain way, that is condescending.

If LL believes something to be true, though, it is OK to offend, and in fact is no better or worse than not offending, based on the rather absolute claim "I am not concerned with offending someone … "

Ah, could this be exposing a weakness in the debate? Could LL have conveyed, intentionally or not, that others’ offense at what we say needs not be of any concern to us whatsoever? Hold that thought.

These statements make you out as very hypocritical. Do I see a double standard here? You don’t care to offend someone so long as you believe you speak the truth yet cry foul when someone says things that he/she believes to be the truth that offends you?

LW sees the weakness opening and pounces on it, by asserting that the weakness shows hypocrisy.

So far, who is winning and who is losing? IMO, neither. It’s a trick question, coming from a dualistic mind.

The question I have is, can we have a meaningful exchange of ideas without believing that in order to do so, we must fight or offend – or at least conclude that our opponent is doing so?

Some things to think about. Take my words for what they are worth to you. I will check in on this thread, and unless one or both of you tells me to get lost, I might offer points of view that can help reconcile the fact that someone else believes differently with the desire not to offend or assume.

Parting thoughts and peace offerings:

On being offensive – I propose that if a truth needs to be told, especially if it affects salvation, then that truth should be told, without fear of offense. That said, if we come across as offensive, intentionally or not, then it block the other person from hearing us. So offending is counterproductive to a useful discussion, regardless of whether it is “right” or “wrong” to offend.

On believing one is the only one in the room who knows the truth:
1 Cor 8:1b-2:

… we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.

On the relative importance of being right:
1 Cor:2-3:

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

On whether being right gives license to offend:
from 1 Cor 13:4-5:

Love is patient, love is kind. … it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

Challenge: how about a group hug? :grouphug:

Now returning you to our regularly scheduled :slapfight: .

Peace,
Alan

 

[MtnDwellar]

The book is titled: Exorcism: Encounters with the Paranormal and the Occult

And saying my statements are heresy and somewhat ‘weakening’ is quite condescending of you. How is promoting sensibility in approaching the mentally insane ‘heretical’? Are we to justify the image of an anti-scientific Church?

Point out where I said a person couldn’t pray for anyone. That is different from administering exorcism. Only a qualified priest may do such things and there is very limited power to those outside the priesthood. You cannot cast out demons, only priests can with the authority of a bishop. That is basic Exorcism 101.

If I didn’t know any better, I would say you were heretical in implying that anyone can be an exorcist.

I don’t own the book. Can you easily find the quote?

I am not using the term “exorcism”. There are several different kinds of exorcism. A solemn exorcism can only be performed by a trained exorcist of the clergy. A level two exorcism can be performed by any priest. All of us can cast out demons.

I specifically call it deliverance so that it is not confused with other types of exorcism.

When a priest performs an exorcism or a blessing, he has the support of the entire Church. Lay people do not have the support in the same way that a priest has support, but can still be effective by calling upon the intercession of the Holy Spirit, The Virgin Mary, or Archangel Michael in the name of Jesus Christ to expel demons. We not only can do this, but are told to do it. The heresy is if one is saying that we should not do what Jesus told us to do.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I don’t own the book. Can you easily find the quote?

All right but please know that skimming and encoding aren’t my best skills so quoting it takes a while:

Those active in the exorcism and deliverance ministry reiterate the need to make sure that the case is not merely psychological.

To aid in determining the psychological component of the patient’s malady, one must first check what forms of psychological therapy the person has already undergone and if any medical diagnosis has been given.

p. 73

I am not using the term “exorcism”. There are several different kinds of exorcism. A solemn exorcism can only be performed by a trained exorcist of the clergy. A level two exorcism can be performed by any priest. All of us can cast out demons.

I specifically call it deliverance so that it is not confused with other types of exorcism.

Yet apparently, unless you clarify exactly what actions make up this ‘deliverance’ I’m afraid it’s you who are simply confusing/mixing them up.

When a priest performs an exorcism or a blessing, he has the support of the entire Church. Lay people do not have the support in the same way that a priest has support, but can still be effective by calling upon the intercession of the Holy Spirit, The Virgin Mary, or Archangel Michael in the name of Jesus Christ to expel demons. We not only can do this, but are told to do it. The heresy is if one is saying that we should not do what Jesus told us to do.

Again, I ask you to specifically describe the manner in which lay people call upon such intercession. If it is any way similar to that which only exorcists are qualified to do (e.g. commanding demons to flee a.k.a. the popularized image of “casting out” in Biblical times) then it is you who are in danger of heresy. I said before, I have nothing against praying for said individual. That is well within the right and power of any Catholic. On the other hand, I have everything against splashing holy water on individuals who could merely be suffering from psychological illnesses and even more so, with an attitude that looks down on sensible, scientific assumptions as “secularized” and “worldly”.

 

[MtnDwellar]

All right but please know that skimming and encoding aren’t my best skills so quoting it takes a while:

Yet apparently, unless you clarify exactly what actions make up this ‘deliverance’ I’m afraid it’s you who are simply confusing/mixing them up.

Again, I ask you to specifically describe the manner in which lay people call upon such intercession. If it is any way similar to that which only exorcists are qualified to do (e.g. commanding demons to flee a.k.a. the popularized image of “casting out” in Biblical times) then it is you who are in danger of heresy. I said before, I have nothing against praying for said individual. That is well within the right and power of any Catholic. On the other hand, I have everything against splashing holy water on individuals who could merely be suffering from psychological illnesses and even more so, with an attitude that looks down on sensible, scientific assumptions as “secularized” and “worldly”.

Your quote is from page 71 of the book? Thanks. I think that I might need to read that book.

Father Amorth has a chapter called “Who Can Expel Demons?” in “An Exorcist Tell His Story”. Do you have that book? He never mentions a psychiatric exam before deliverance prayers.

I do not see anything wrong with blessing someone with holy water, no matter what ails them. Splashing it on an unsuspecting person is wrong.

I am starting to come of the mind that separation between the spiritual and material is not a wide divide. Problems can probably be resolved in either realm.

I am heading out the door. There is tons of information about deliverance available on the net. Check it out.

God Bless.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Your quote is from page 71 of the book? Thanks. I think that I might need to read that book.

Page 73. It’s only a part but much of the book reiterates the need of careful examination overall.

Father Amorth has a chapter called “Who Can Expel Demons?” in “An Exorcist Tell His Story”. Do you have that book? He never mentions a psychiatric exam before deliverance prayers.

This book cites Amorth as well but I would really stress that the way the book emphasizes on psychological evaluations (especially with those under extraordinary assault) is a good addition. The thing that gives disbelief in Satan a leg up is in fact a complete disregard for a prior scientific/rational inquiry on the part of religious. I’m already tired of atheists using examples of such behavior without the spiritual warfare folks adding to them.

I do not see anything wrong with blessing someone with holy water, no matter what ails them. Splashing it on an unsuspecting person is wrong.

I would actually say that so long as it is consensual, there’s little problem with it. It matters hardly if any positive side effect is psychological or actually spiritual.

Unfortunately, certain individuals find themselves “holy” enough to throw sensibility out the window. I tell you now, if you steal my PSP and splash holy water on it purely on the grounds that you get “spiritual willies”, I will sue you for property damage.

I am heading out the door. There is tons of information about deliverance available on the net. Check it out.

For the most part, much of what I’ve found is actually misinformation. At the very least, a book can be broken down and have its own date and that of citations verified.

 

[puzzleannie]

I see the thread has long since gone off track.
Are coworkers of OP continuing to practice psychiatry without a license and diagnosing mental health of their fellow worker over the water cooler? Or have they gone back to doing their own jobs.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I see the thread has long since gone off track.
Are coworkers of OP continuing to practice psychiatry without a license and diagnosing mental health of their fellow worker over the water cooler? Or have they gone back to doing their own jobs.

:clapping:

Alan

 

[silentstar]

If her job performance is adequate and there is no indication she is a danger to self or others there may not be anything to talk to other people at work about. One thing I never got a clear impression of is, can she do her job.

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

These statements make you out as very hypocritical. Do I see a double standard here? You don’t care to offend someone so long as you believe you speak the truth yet cry foul when someone says things that he/she believes to be the truth that offends you?

Like it or not, you are deliberately taking things into your own hands. This is real life, not some Christian fantasy where everyone like your co-worker is Satan’s stooge. She’s a person too and I think you, as a human being, much more a Christian one, have every obligation to treat her as humanely as possible regardless of her beliefs. Part of that is approaching the problem sensibly.

I’m at a loss here… I didn’t “cry foul” about being offended, I said I’d prefer not to be disrespected by condescending phrases like “use your head.” I said you can offend me, but don’t disrespect me, therefore I don’t care about being offended. I later said that I don’t care if I offend someone. That is the exact opposite of double standard–I don’t care if you offend me, I don’t care if I offend you. I do care if you disrespect me, and I care if I disrespect you. Really at a loss as to where you find hypocrisy in this?

Secondly, I don’t understand why you keep saying I’m trying to perform an exorcism? I do not believe my co-worker to be possessed, but possibly oppressed, so she wouldn’t need an exorcism. Saying ‘exorcism prayers’, or ‘deliverance prayers’ for someone is not even close to performing an exorcism and is encouraged by the Church. The fact that Satan and his demons are involved in everyone’s life isn’t a Christian fantasy, it’s Christian reality. No matter what level of temptation or demonic influence you are subjected to, a deliverance prayer can be said for anyone and can never hurt the situation. I have no intention of splashing my co-worker with holy water and I treat her very humanely, the same way I treat anyone else.

As far as you saying that lay people cannot cast out demons, that is heresy. Christ gave us authority over Satan and his demons. We can use this authority in two ways. When Satan or a demon affects us directly, interfering in our personal sphere of influence, we have the power to cast the evil out. “Casting out” doesn’t have to mean getting them out of someone, it just means commanding them out of your sphere of influence, out of your presence. The second way we can use this authority over Satan is by prayers of petition, like deliverance/exorcism prayers. When evil is affecting another person, but isn’t interfering with our own lives, we don’t have the power to cast them out, so we petition to God for the person’s deliverance. This is better explained here: catholicwarriors.com/pages/praying_with_authority.htm

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

If her job performance is adequate and there is no indication she is a danger to self or others there may not be anything to talk to other people at work about. One thing I never got a clear impression of is, can she do her job.

I don’t talk to anyone at work about it; she does her job exceptionally well.

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

I see the thread has long since gone off track.
Are coworkers of OP continuing to practice psychiatry without a license and diagnosing mental health of their fellow worker over the water cooler? Or have they gone back to doing their own jobs.

The woman hasn’t made any recent outburst and has been “talking to herself” less as far as I can tell. Maybe the prayers here have helped.

I haven’t heard anyone mention anything about her since the incident. I’m the only one who made the “diagnosis.” I said here and nowhere else what the issue seems like to me. I’m a theology major and am currently taking a course on abnormal psychology where we learn about all types of mental illnesses in depth.

 

[Roxygirl1488]

What I was saying is that there are certain prayers only a priest can say for a afflicted person, and there are certain prayers anyone can say for an afflicted person. I think the prayers the laity can say that cast out “expel” the demons depends on the degree of the demonic influence there is upon a person? Does that make sense? If the demonic influence on the person is strong enough, than a priest must be consulted. I hope I am explaining what I mean correctly.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Secondly, I don’t understand why you keep saying I’m trying to perform an exorcism? I do not believe my co-worker to be possessed, but possibly oppressed, so she wouldn’t need an exorcism. Saying ‘exorcism prayers’, or ‘deliverance prayers’ for someone is not even close to performing an exorcism and is encouraged by the Church. The fact that Satan and his demons are involved in everyone’s life isn’t a Christian fantasy, it’s Christian reality. No matter what level of temptation or demonic influence you are subjected to, a deliverance prayer can be said for anyone and can never hurt the situation. I have no intention of splashing my co-worker with holy water and I treat her very humanely, the same way I treat anyone else.

I am simply telling you to be careful not take it to that level. If your intention was to simply pray silently for your co-worker in your own cubicle, that is your right. However, that is really not how you came off. The fact that you so lightly accepted the idea of sneaking holy water into her drink didn’t help.

Frankly, if I found out you pulled the stunt with me, I would definitely confront you not because out of disdain for the holy water but out of disdain for whatever germs you may not be aware it had. I for one certainly would not slip even a drop from the bottle I have in my house because it’s been sitting in my family altar for years.

Secondly, if you’re going to go over there and do a lay-on-hands act, that too is asking for trouble and also the picture I’m getting from your words here. How would you feel if some Buddhist started chanting a mantra in your office?

As far as you saying that lay people cannot cast out demons, that is heresy. Christ gave us authority over Satan and his demons. We can use this authority in two ways. When Satan or a demon affects us directly, interfering in our personal sphere of influence, we have the power to cast the evil out. “Casting out” doesn’t have to mean getting them out of someone, it just means commanding them out of your sphere of influence, out of your presence. The second way we can use this authority over Satan is by prayers of petition, like deliverance/exorcism prayers. When evil is affecting another person, but isn’t interfering with our own lives, we don’t have the power to cast them out, so we petition to God for the person’s deliverance. This is better explained here: catholicwarriors.com/pages/praying_with_authority.htm

The fact remains that you failed to specify which of those you are attempting. Besides, in your first post, you were actually asking for what action to take and you definitely sounded like you wanted to meddle in your co-worker’s affairs.

It is not advisable to approach a mentally ill person unless you are a professional. Proven fact. I wouldn’t even be here if you gave even the slightest hint that all you were going to do was sit there and pray for them. You didn’t. You actually implied that you would rather tell her that she’s suffering from “demonic oppression”. In fact, given your attitude, you wouldn’t even care to offend that person. That’s not the mark of an evangelist. That’s the mark of a troublemaker.

P.S.

I said you can offend me, but don’t disrespect me, therefore I don’t care about being offended.

Please don’t argue semantics with me. Disrespect. Offend. There’s no difference. You offended me by implying I am against Church teaching and treated me like I’m some lost sheep. I only give back what’s thrown at me mkay?

 

[Roxygirl1488]

In this posters defense. I recommended the holy water because I heard from an exorcist priest that it is okay to do that to find out if someone has some level of demonic influence.
He said it will taste bad to the person or they will refuse to drink it. Of course I wouldn’t recommend giving the person holy water from years ago saved in a jug thats been sitting in a hot room, but I don’t see the harm if he is truly concerned about her and what to do. Here is the link. sensustraditionis.org/
(its under spiritual warefare section)
You have to remember this woman is saying things like “HE’S ONLY A CHILD!” I think this poster has cause to be concerned, not just for her welfare but for that of someone elses. I certainly think if he prayed deliverence prayers for her that would not be harmful to her. I don’t think he is trying to throw holy water in her face and press a crucifix to her head. I think he is genuinly concerned for her based off of what he is seeing her say and do at work. He is not a psychiatrist or a priest this is true. I think the problem is no one wants the poster to say anything to her because he is not a “qualified” professional. This does make sense. At the same time though, prayers can only help her, whether its demonic influenced or not. I could be wrong but what I am gathering from the poster is he wants to help her, based off what he is expierencing with her at work, he believes its more than a mental illness. If that is the case, I would if I were the poster, say the deliverence prayers that is approved for laity to say, and in find a good Catholic priest who has some expierence of mental illness and demonic posession, obsession, oppression, and see what he recommends. Its definately hard to find a priest with expierence in those fields but its not impossible. Father Chad Ripperger is the exorcist priest whos link I posted above who talks about these things. You could always get ahold of him. My personal opinion, I would always seek out advice on what to do from a priest first and if he recommends mental health standpoint, then you listen to him. Know what I mean?

 

[Roxygirl1488]

Seriously though, both of you guys need to just calm down, I know your both passionate about the faith but remember we gotta love one another too! =)
I think you should both apologize to each other because I’m sure its just some kind of miscommunication going on. I can see you both love the faith very deeply and are both very concerned for the welfare of this woman, but like I said we gotta try to love one another, which isn’t always easy believe me I know!

“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful” (2 Timothy 2:23-24)

Also, please know that I only posted the bible quote because I am trying to remind you guys what we strive for as fellow Christians, and that is to imitate Christ. I fall all the time, so don’t think I am trying to act holier than thou, I just want you guys to remember what we are striving for, just like I need to be remembered from time to time.