Co-Worker Hearing Voices

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m trying not to focus on myself as the topic, but I have direct experience with something not a whole lot different from how this sounds. Maybe my story will help explain why I am so interested in this thread, and give some insight as to dealing with mentally ill people.

On June 8, 2001, I was “captured” against my will and after walking into a trap where I had been lied to, based on the orders from a woman who had never met me or talked to me, who based her decision hearsay from a company psychologist whom I never met who was contacted by company managers who didn’t know me (above my boss’s head, when my boss knew what was going on and knew I had begun receiving treatment) based on hearsay of a meddling clerk that thought I had a “problem” and as a friend, decided to “help” me by going around my back.

Sigh, one of these days maybe I’ll get over all that. Anyway, the real story here is what happened within five minutes of when I got locked up.

In a mental ward, patients often take emotional cues from each other. They quickly learn to trust one another, often more so than the staff, and there are good reasons for that. For one, wackos can often have meaningful discussions with each other, but when interrogated by an incompetent, even disinterested, psych tech or intern, they ask questions but don’t really listen for the answers; they just check the boxes on their forms so they can decide whether to change my medicine or not, and move on to the next one.

That is important, because they see those running the ward as oppressors who “just don’t understand and can’t hear but must be in control” and the fellow patients are comrades in a world that doesn’t understand them. That leads directly to my explanation for something that could have looked for all the world as a woman, tongue tied, and with a few words from me she was freed from the demon or psychological issue or whatever that was making her incoherent.

So when I was brought into the ward at one end of the hallway, from the other end was a very strange sound that was of a human being crying out in a strange, confused gibberish. When I got to the other end of the hallway, I saw a large woman, with two white coats around her trying to take her blood pressure, etc. She looked as scared as I’d ever seen anybody look and was making the strangest noise. She was calling out, loudly enough to be heard over the whole ward,“LAAAH duh DAAA duh DAAA duh … sort of thing.” Reminded me of when someone doesn’t want to hear what you’re saying, except she had her eyes open and was looking around, scared, while she made that noise. It reminded me a bit of this, only without the fingers in the ears:

http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/2.gif

At this time, I was having a deeply religious experience because when I was captured and taken against my will and for no reason they would actually tell me (unlike criminals you don’t have the right to know why they brought you in) it trigger a great deal of fear and confusion, and I somehow thought I was in unity with Jesus, being taken away from society for having said and thought things that other people – those in control – didn’t understand. Some of those things, I was objectively right about, btw.

So I sat down near this woman and looked at her intently. She glanced at me a couple times, but only yelled louder and louder. I asked her, “are you trying to tell me something,” and she looked at me, then at the white coats, and got even louder. The white coats assured me, “don’t worry about her, this is all she ever says.”

So I sat there, convinced that the Holy Spirit must have led me there and that I felt I had something to do with this woman. I kept watching and listening, and listening and watching how the white coats were talking “at” her in their efforts to talk “to” her. Then suddenly, the woman was yelling and I heard a couple words. LAAAdaaDAAAdaaDAATODAYS THE DAY daa DAAA daa DAAA!!!

What? I looked around, and nobody else seemed to notice that she had yelled English words. Now she was more scared than ever and I said to her, “is there something about today?” She kept up her noise for a while, then suddenly yelled at me, “It was YOU! You KILLED him!” and then went back to her drone, and this time the others noticed it and a couple other white coats started moving in, in case they needed to control her.

So I said to her, “I didn’t kill anybody; I would never do that. Who got killed, and who killed him?” And then she broke from her drone and started yelling other things in English, and turning to the white coats, she started yelling in their direction, not at them but toward them, and suddenly all the faces of the white coats started turning red.

(continued)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued)

Within two minutes, they had calmed her down, she had quit yelling, and was carrying on a normal conversation with the white coats, about her medicine and her blood pressure. she seemed disturbed, but perfectly lucid. The white coats were very pleased, but their faces made them look like they had just seen a ghost.

To me, it made perfect sense at the time. I gathered that this woman was tongue-tied by fear, and when she realized I was really trying to listen, she dared make an attempt to communicate. I thought, “wow, what beauty is it what some people would call a miracle, but I saw the whole things and it made sense.”

OK, here’s why I tell you this story. Mentally ill people often have very interesting or important things to say, but can’t say them and get increasingly fearful when other seemingly intelligent people can’t understand anything they say.

Calling for “help,” to me, is not always helpful, but is almost always the instinct of a person without experience at mental illness. One of the best things you can do for someone who is frustrated and scared, is to listen to them, and really try to hear what they are saying. If they think you have heard them, they will automatically be less fearful, and it might help them explain their problems when they feel the person listening is really trying to hear them and not just trying to control of confine them.

So if you don’t mind getting your “hands dirty,” instead of just picking up a sterile telephone and calling someone, try listening to someone who doesn’t make sense. If you don’t understand them, draw them out and help them explain the parts that are hard to understand. If that doesn’t work, don’t give up bur don’t lie. I do not advise telling a person having a psychotic episode that you understand something they say, when you don’t. It alienates and scares them further. You can say, “I don’t quite understand you, but I’m sure we’ll get through this.”

Basically just pretend that they are actually human beings, and have things they would like to say, but have trouble expressing it in ways that others can understand. Be the first person in their world who actually tries to listen rather than “observe” like the interns do in their apparent view of us as lab rats.

Alan

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

I am simply telling you to be careful not take it to that level. If your intention was to simply pray silently for your co-worker in your own cubicle, that is your right. However, that is really not how you came off. The fact that you so lightly accepted the idea of sneaking holy water into her drink didn’t help.

Frankly, if I found out you pulled the stunt with me, I would definitely confront you not because out of disdain for the holy water but out of disdain for whatever germs you may not be aware it had. I for one certainly would not slip even a drop from the bottle I have in my house because it’s been sitting in my family altar for years.

Secondly, if you’re going to go over there and do a lay-on-hands act, that too is asking for trouble and also the picture I’m getting from your words here. How would you feel if some Buddhist started chanting a mantra in your office?

The fact remains that you failed to specify which of those you are attempting. Besides, in your first post, you were actually asking for what action to take and you definitely sounded like you wanted to meddle in your co-worker’s affairs.

It is not advisable to approach a mentally ill person unless you are a professional. Proven fact. I wouldn’t even be here if you gave even the slightest hint that all you were going to do was sit there and pray for them. You didn’t. You actually implied that you would rather tell her that she’s suffering from “demonic oppression”. In fact, given your attitude, you wouldn’t even care to offend that person. That’s not the mark of an evangelist. That’s the mark of a troublemaker.

P.S.

Please don’t argue semantics with me. Disrespect. Offend. There’s no difference. You offended me by implying I am against Church teaching and treated me like I’m some lost sheep. I only give back what’s thrown at me mkay?

1. Never accepted the idea of sneaking holy water into her drink (although I have enough faith to believe God doesn’t allow blessed things to become contaminated, like the Host dropped on the ground, for example), did say that I would sprinkle it in her work area when she was not present (please stop putting words in my mouth). Never said anything about laying on of the hands or doing anything besides possibly speaking w/ her.
2. Offending people is the mark of an evangelist, actually. Jesus offended more people than anyone and was vastly regarded as a trouble maker, which is why He was killed, but he disrespected no one. He spoke the truth and many couldn’t accept it. All great teachers offend people, because the majority of the world doesn’t like to be told that they are doing wrong. The difference between offending and disrespecting is not a small one, and for you to say that one doesn’t exist is mind boggling.
3. Consistently misquoting me, denying the HUGE difference between offending and disrespecting, and sometimes speaking with authority based off of personal opinion as opposed to Church teachings are all causes for concern.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

1. Never accepted the idea of sneaking holy water into her drink

Don’t lie.

“You look tired… Here, drink this cup of water I just happen to have handy! No, I haven’t drank from it, I just thought you looked dehydrated. Go on, DRINK!”

Again, not helping.

(although I have enough faith to believe God doesn’t allow blessed things to become contaminated, like the Host dropped on the ground, for example),

Tell that to my forehead when I was in my teens after it suffered an allergic reaction from dirty holy water.

did say that I would sprinkle it in her work area when she was not present (please stop putting words in my mouth).

The words I’ve put are exactly the words you’re saying now. You are basically going to perform things not only without proper investigation, but also without the consent of your co-worker. That’s two violations of human conduct right there. Did you forget what I said about sprinkling water on other people’s belongings without permission? Worst case scenario, you could damage something with that water (paper, electronic devices, or simply leave a mess if your enthusiasm prompted you to spray too much). I for one would be very upset if someone splashed water on my computer or laptop without me knowing.

Never said anything about laying on of the hands or doing anything besides possibly speaking w/ her.

Speaking to her is also asking for trouble if you’re not a professional.

1. Offending people is the mark of an evangelist, actually. Jesus offended more people than anyone and was vastly regarded as a trouble maker, which is why He was killed, but he disrespected no one. He spoke the truth and many couldn’t accept it. All great teachers offend people, because the majority of the world doesn’t like to be told that they are doing wrong. The difference between offending and disrespecting is not a small one, and for you to say that one doesn’t exist is mind boggling.

Yet the Lord commanded to ‘shake the dust off your feet’ as it were when faced with those who refuse to heed. Are you going to prove a contradiction in Christ’s teachings or are you actually going to actually sit down and pay heed to the caution that I and others have advised you?

You know as well as anyone else here that your co-worker does not strike as an open-minded individual, much less an approachable one. Do yourself the favor. Stick to praying for her and spare yourself unneeded drama. If anything, reading Alan’s story up there only gives me more reason to stick to my own business.

Jesus spoke and preached openly as it was his right in any public space. He did not however sneak into other people’s houses uninvited. He respected the privacy of others. He did not go about stalking and meddling in other people’s affairs. What you’re doing is like comparing the act of hacking a site to leave spam bots promoting your business with the act of putting up your own website promoting that same business. The latter is within your right, the former can get you arrested.

1. Consistently misquoting me, denying the HUGE difference between offending and disrespecting, and sometimes speaking with authority based off of personal opinion as opposed to Church teachings are all causes for concern.

Your accusations are unfounded and are even better off directed towards yourself seeing as how you deemed yourself righteous enough to tell others they are unfaithful/heretical Catholics. I have already cited a Catholic authority for my basis of requiring a proper investigation as well as demanding that you specify what exactly is it that you’re going to do that justifies ignoring that procedure. And yet, you insist on calling me heretical. Who am I going to believe? You, a random internet stranger who cannot even give logical defense for your actions, or an experienced exorcist?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Speaking to her is also asking for trouble if you’re not a professional.

I see this, as well as the rest of your post, as very good advice. Do NOT go up to her and ask, “hi, I’ve noticed you say things that I find weird. Do you think you might need professional help?”

If you must approach her, I suggest you follow the format for “assertiveness” (note that assertiveness means something quite different than aggressiveness) that one psychologist took the time to explain to me. I’m going to try to give you the essence of 8 weeks of private training in “assertiveness” in two minutes.

FIrst, before you approach her, decide which of the following apply. Select only one:

1. her behavior causes a tangible problem for you.
2. her behavior doesn’t cause you a problem, but a needs conflict.
3. her behavior causes you a problem because it is offensive to your values or upsetting
4. her behavior doesn’t cause you a problem, because the problem is hers.
5. there is no problem, and you want to tell her a positive message.

On limited time, I’m going to guess it’s either 1, 3, or 4.

If it’s 1, give her an “I feel X when you Y because Z statement.” All three components are necessasary, and note in particular it is X WHEN Y, not X BECAUSE Y. To say, “I feel bothered because you do this” is to blame her for your own feelings, which are not her job.

“I’ve noticed you sometimes say things quietly that I don’t understand. It troubles me, because I don’t know if you want me to respond, and I can’t because I don’t understand you.” I don’t like that approach too much, but it’s there.

If it’s 3, then tell her exactly once, and then forever hold your peace. “I’m not sure you realize it, but when you talk to yourself, sometimes I hear you say things that are troubling.” I really don’t like that one either.

If it’s 4, then you may say, “I couldn’t help overhearing some comments you made to yourself. Is there anything going on that I can help you with? I am here for you,” and then say or do nothing more unless she asks.

I like the last approach, if an approach be necessary at all. Depending on the situation is whether I’d prefer it over doing nothing.

Hope this helps,
Alan

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

Don’t lie.

Again, not helping.

Tell that to my forehead when I was in my teens after it suffered an allergic reaction from dirty holy water.

The words I’ve put are exactly the words you’re saying now. You are basically going to perform things not only without proper investigation, but also without the consent of your co-worker. That’s two violations of human conduct right there. Did you forget what I said about sprinkling water on other people’s belongings without permission? Worst case scenario, you could damage something with that water (paper, electronic devices, or simply leave a mess if your enthusiasm prompted you to spray too much). I for one would be very upset if someone splashed water on my computer or laptop without me knowing.

Speaking to her is also asking for trouble if you’re not a professional.

Yet the Lord commanded to ‘shake the dust off your feet’ as it were when faced with those who refuse to heed. Are you going to prove a contradiction in Christ’s teachings or are you actually going to actually sit down and pay heed to the caution that I and others have advised you?

You know as well as anyone else here that your co-worker does not strike as an open-minded individual, much less an approachable one. Do yourself the favor. Stick to praying for her and spare yourself unneeded drama. If anything, reading Alan’s story up there only gives me more reason to stick to my own business.

Jesus spoke and preached openly as it was his right in any public space. He did not however sneak into other people’s houses uninvited. He respected the privacy of others. He did not go about stalking and meddling in other people’s affairs. What you’re doing is like comparing the act of hacking a site to leave spam bots promoting your business with the act of putting up your own website promoting that same business. The latter is within your right, the former can get you arrested.

Your accusations are unfounded and are even better off directed towards yourself seeing as how you deemed yourself righteous enough to tell others they are unfaithful/heretical Catholics. I have already cited a Catholic authority for my basis of requiring a proper investigation as well as demanding that you specify what exactly is it that you’re going to do that justifies ignoring that procedure. And yet, you insist on calling me heretical. Who am I going to believe? You, a random internet stranger who cannot even give logical defense for your actions, or an experienced exorcist?

1. Not that it matters, but quote me where I ever said I was going to sneak holy water into her drink. No need to lie, everything we say can be seen with a click.
2. You quoted me a making a joke. You’re right, it doesn’t help… Nor does it hurt. It’s irrelevant, and was actually poking fun at the idea of randomly giving someone some water to drink.
3. Dirty holy water huh? Interesting…
4. Splashing holy water isn’t ‘performing’ anything. Please get the idea that I am performing an exorcism, or performing anything for that matter, far out of your head. I supplied you with a link that explains the type of spiritual warfare that is involved here. While your Catholic authority is reliable, it’s irrelevant here. This is not an exorcism, for the last time. No proper investigation required by the Church for any of this.
5. Your reference to the Lord’s command about shaking the dust form one’s feet would involve your or I discontinuing this argument and moving on, not sure where you got me sitting down and taking your advice out of that…
6. My co-worker is very approachable and open minded. Confused as to where you came up with your theory on her.
7. Jesus spoke with many people in private and helped those whom His Father willed. I believe in my prayers and whatever the Lord’s will is for me concerning my coworker. I’m not going to take any action without prayer and mediation. Also, let’s remember that the vast majority of Jesus’ words and actions aren’t recorded in Scripture, so be careful saying He didn’t do this and didn’t do that, unless of course it’s something sinful, in which case we know for certain He didn’t
8. I think I’ve given plenty logic for my “actions.” Keep in mind I haven’t done anything, and if I do, if I were to sprinkle holy water for instance, it surely wouldn’t be on someone’s laptop or papers! Also, if I was going to say something to the woman about her problem, which I most likely will not, my words would be very well thought out and reinforced by prayers to the Holy Spirit, backed by faith in those prayers. Key to having your prayers answered: Believe in what you pray for, be persistent, ask in Jesus’ name, forgive your trespassers.

Lastly, I am having trouble connecting many of your points, almost like there is a language barrier at times. I don’t mind you disagreeing with me, but if this is making you angry it’s best we stop, for it’s serving no real purpose at this point.

Also, you keep getting mad about being called a heretic (a professed believer who holds opinions contrary to Church teachings). Me or anyone else calling you this isn’t us being self-righteous, it’s just acknowledging that you are speaking in a way that is opposed to the Church. We’re not necessarily saying we know more than you, or “we’re right, you’re wrong”… We’re saying the Church knows more than all of us, the Church is right, and what you’re saying at times is not what it teaches.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

1. Not that it matters, but quote me where I ever said I was going to sneak holy water into her drink. No need to lie, everything we say can be seen with a click.
2. You quoted me a making a joke. You’re right, it doesn’t help… Nor does it hurt. It’s irrelevant, and was actually poking fun at the idea of randomly giving someone some water to drink.

It doesn’t help. That was the point.

1. Dirty holy water huh? Interesting…

Yeah, so think about that the next you assume that just because something is holy, it’s going to prevent an accident. Don’t come crying to me when you short-circuit something with that water.

1. Splashing holy water isn’t ‘performing’ anything. Please get the idea that I am performing an exorcism, or performing anything for that matter, far out of your head. I supplied you with a link that explains the type of spiritual warfare that is involved here. While your Catholic authority is reliable, it’s irrelevant here. This is not an exorcism, for the last time. No proper investigation required by the Church for any of this.

It is very relevant. Splashing water on another person’s property is very rude at the very least. How’d you like it if some Wiccan snuck in some funky herbs into your Bible?

1. My co-worker is very approachable and open minded. Confused as to where you came up with your theory on her.

Excuse me? Did you or did you not say she was mentally handicapped? That’s enough grounds for anyone to approach with caution.

1. Jesus spoke with many people in private and helped those whom His Father willed. I believe in my prayers and whatever the Lord’s will is for me concerning my coworker. I’m not going to take any action without prayer and mediation. Also, let’s remember that the vast majority of Jesus’ words and actions aren’t recorded in Scripture, so be careful saying He didn’t do this and didn’t do that, unless of course it’s something sinful, in which case we know for certain He didn’t

Sneaking around and splashing water on other people’s property is tantamount to a violation to many commandments that tell you to respect the property of others.

Think about that the next time you think Jesus snuck around and invaded other people’s houses or offices just because the Bible said He didn’t.

1. I think I’ve given plenty logic for my “actions.” Keep in mind I haven’t done anything, and if I do, if I were to sprinkle holy water for instance, it surely wouldn’t be on someone’s laptop or papers! Also, if I was going to say something to the woman about her problem, which I most likely will not, my words would be very well thought out and reinforced by prayers to the Holy Spirit, backed by faith in those prayers. Key to having your prayers answered: Believe in what you pray for, be persistent, ask in Jesus’ name, forgive your trespassers.

Lastly, I am having trouble connecting many of your points, almost like there is a language barrier at times. I don’t mind you disagreeing with me, but if this is making you angry it’s best we stop, for it’s serving no real purpose at this point.

No, it’s more like you never ever specify just what exactly are you planning to do. You’re not giving enough details, unlike now (though you’re still risking way too much here granted the fragility of your co-worker). You say you’re going sprinkle holy water in her office yet only now you say you say you’re going to make sure none hits a laptop or an important document.

Also, you keep getting mad about being called a heretic (a professed believer who holds opinions contrary to Church teachings). Me or anyone else calling you this isn’t us being self-righteous, it’s just acknowledging that you are speaking in a way that is opposed to the Church. We’re not necessarily saying we know more than you, or “we’re right, you’re wrong”… We’re saying the Church knows more than all of us, the Church is right, and what you’re saying at times is not what it teaches.

Not what it teaches? You just conceded in accepting the authority I cited which in turn justifies everything I have said to you. Saying people are speaking against Church teaching is an accusation I take very seriously.

Also, it’s very ironic that you consider firing an unfounded accusation that I am opposing the Church yet believe you are not being self-righteous.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

:slapfight:

To be honest, I have not read every post here all the way through, but I chose this one to comment on because I find it interesting. I am not taking sides, nor do I claim I’ve read the arguments all the through enough to say who is right and who is wrong. Besides, that’s dualistic thinking anyway.

Call me condescending, but I’m offering this for no charge, even though I used to get paid for settling these kinds of squabbles in a large corporation. Hopefully it is worth the price.

Note that these are only my personal reactions to this thread, out of context, and I make no claims as to whether any of my observations match anybody else’s, including God’s.

1. Your reference to the Lord’s command about shaking the dust form one’s feet would involve your or I discontinuing this argument and moving on, not sure where you got me sitting down and taking your advice out of that…

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/5.gif

Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. I actually agree – I don’t know how anybody might think that this argument is being discontinued or that anyone has any intention of moving on. So I don’t know why it seemed funny, it just does.

Key to having your prayers answered: Believe in what you pray for, be persistent, ask in Jesus’ name, forgive your trespassers.

Excellent words of wisdom! :tiphat:

Lastly, I am having trouble connecting many of your points, almost like there is a language barrier at times. I don’t mind you disagreeing with me, but if this is making you angry it’s best we stop, for it’s serving no real purpose at this point.

I think the Lord can and does use all things for the good of those who love Him. So even if it doesn’t support that main point in the thread, God can make good out of all of it – including this unrequested missive from me.

I say “unrequested” and not “uninvited” because this is on a public Internet forum, and in a setting where it is easy and expected for meddlers such as myself to jump into an argument. So to post on this forum is to automatically invite comments.

Also, you keep getting mad about being called a heretic (a professed believer who holds opinions contrary to Church teachings). Me or anyone else calling you this isn’t us being self-righteous, it’s just acknowledging that you are speaking in a way that is opposed to the Church.

Maybe calling someone a heretic isn’t self-righteous, but it’s a very loaded word and everybody knows how the Church treated heretics. If I were to call you a heretic, I would do so with the utmost caution because I know that triggers memories in people of burning at the stake and the like. Do you think that’s an appropriate way to treat heretics? Of course not, but one wonders why another would affix such a label, knowing it will trigger such ideas. Nor does it mean that burning at the stake was done with any intent other than love. Misguided perhaps, but love.

After all, if you really think another fellow Christian is in imminent danger of losing one’s immortal soul to eternal torment, you might this that as a Christian you have a duty to help save them from that fate. If no other means works right to get them to talk the way you think the Church would have them talk, then it isn’t out of the question to burn them at the stake, in love and in hope that in the searing flames, they will repent and perform an act of perfect contrition. We are not actually “killing” them, then – we are really “saving” their lives – their eternal lives. Compared to that in importance, a little pain and the death in the mortal realm is just a slight sting from the medicine being injected.

We’re not necessarily saying we know more than you, or “we’re right, you’re wrong”… We’re saying the Church knows more than all of us, the Church is right, and what you’re saying at times is not what it teaches.

There are ways to address apparent “heretics,” especially if they claim to love the church, that doesn’t conjure the image that you are ready to bring the wrath of God and the Church to bear to support your belief that the other is wrong.

For example, try this on for size. “I believe in the teaching authority for the Church, and it sounds to me like you just said X, which I don’t see as consistent with Y. If that’s not what you meant to say, or if you understand the Church’s position on this differently, then please help me see your point more clearly.”

You don’t have to call somebody a heretic, any more than shooing a fly off my shoulder requires a bazooka.

Peace to all, and if you would like me to, I will be happy to go through this thread and find examples where I think you are not only right, but stating your case with love and humility. That is, to the degree that my opinion is important to you. I cast no aspersions on your thinking or your intent. Just mentioning what I see about your communication style.

As often is the case, no matter how much I think and pray before I submit this post, an hour from now I may repent of this post, so don’t think that what I wrote here an hour ago reflects what I think now. My thoughts change rapidly, especially when I mess up and am taught a lesson by God and other people.

Call me your clown, your crazy fellow poster, grandiose, or whatever you think. You have my permission. My mind has been to farworse places than that, and the Lord got me through those times.

“Lord, I thank you for our lives, this Internet forum, and all of your wonderful blessings you have given us through no merit of our own. I pray that you hasten to bring enlightenment and guidance to me and the other posters on this thread. Please accept our posts as our gifts to You and each other, and use them as You will. I ask these things through Your Son Jesus, Amen.”

Alan

 

[MtnDwellar]

I don’t see any problem with blessing one’s workplace or home, car, boat, or baseball glove, etc. I am going to bless my workplace this morning. I only need a small amount of holy water, so I am not concerned with damaging laptops or paperwork.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t see any problem with blessing one’s workplace or home, car, boat, or baseball glove, etc. I am going to bless my workplace this morning. I only need a small amount of holy water, so I am not concerned with damaging laptops or paperwork.

I think the problems in this thread started because one of the responders mentioned the idea of putting some holy water into the co-worker’s drink and offering it to her. Or blessing the co-worker’s cubicle without permission or knowledge, just in case there was a demon lurking around. It was the idea of doing this TO someone else, not one’s own home or workplace. To my mind, that is religious trespassing, at the very least.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I think the problems in this thread started because one of the responders mentioned the idea of putting some holy water into the co-worker’s drink and offering it to her. Or blessing the co-worker’s cubicle without permission or knowledge, just in case there was a demon lurking around. It was the idea of doing this TO someone else, not one’s own home or workplace. To my mind, that is religious trespassing, at the very least.

Hi Juliane, I was with you until you got to “religious trespassing”. Is that a real thing? I am not confined when practicing my religion. I often bless buildings and individuals throughout the day.

Sometimes they know, such as when someone sneezes, other times they are not aware that they are receiving blessings.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hi Juliane, I was with you until you got to “religious trespassing”. Is that a real thing? I am not confined when practicing my religion. I often bless buildings and individuals throughout the day.

Sometimes they know, such as when someone sneezes, other times they are not aware that they are receiving blessings.

I’m not sure whether that is an official term, but I agree with the concept.

I’ve heard it said, God is a gentleman. He doesn’t force Himself on us, but allows us to first invite Him in.

I think that you can bless buildings all day, but when it comes to physically manipulating other people’s property or going into “their space” without permission or even knowledge, then it is not so clear.

If a Muslim thought I should fast during Ramadan and “helps” me by trashing the lunch I had in the refrigerator, I think I could call that “religious trespassing.” If I go plant a crucifix in a coworker’s desk when I didn’t have permission to be doing anything to their desk, I’d call that religious trespassing.

If I say to a coworker, “here is something that is meaningful to me, and I’d like you to have it and keep it in your desk or hang it on your wall,” and then offer to give them a rosary, then I consider that religious invitation, and not trespassing.

To cause someone to ingest something they don’t know about, even if it isn’t harmful, IMO, would be tantamount to force feeding the Eucharist to an unwilling recipient.

Alan

 

[MtnDwellar]

If a Muslim thought I should fast during Ramadan and “helps” me by trashing the lunch I had in the refrigerator, I think I could call that “religious trespassing.” If I go plant a crucifix in a coworker’s desk when I didn’t have permission to be doing anything to their desk, I’d call that religious trespassing.

You are changing the scope of the subject. I agree with not spiking someone’s drink with Holy Water.

Juliane stated, “Or blessing the co-worker’s cubicle without permission or knowledge, just in case there was a demon lurking around. It was the idea of doing this TO someone else, not one’s own home or workplace. To my mind, that is religious trespassing, at the very least.”

I bless people and things without asking permission. I never thought it was wrong.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You are changing the scope of the subject. I agree with not spiking someone’s drink with Holy Water.

My apologies. I understood the essence of your question to which I was responding, to mean the following:
"Hi Juliane, I was with you until you got to “religious trespassing”. Is that a real thing? I am not confined when practicing my religion. I often bless buildings and individuals throughout the day.
I’m saying I consider it a real thing. I didn’t say that blessing buildings and individuals are examples of it.

Sometimes they know, such as when someone sneezes, other times they are not aware that they are receiving blessings.

In the case of sneezing, it is accepted social norm and considered good manners to say, “bless you.” Sometimes instead I’ll say, “gesundheit,” which I started doing back when I considered myself agnostic. It is German for “health.” They can take it any way they want, whether I mean physical, emotional, spiritual, mental, or social health, or any combination of them.

Incidentally, I understand the term “bless you” stemmed from the superstition that when a person sneezed, demons came out of their head – or something like that – I don’t remember when I read that; it was quite a few years ago.

I bless people and things without asking permission. I never thought it was wrong.

If you do it in line with social and cultural norms that apply to all beliefs, then I don’t have a problem with it. Bless all you want, pray what you will, but as long as you do it in secret, I have no problem.

I don’t believe it would be appropriate to tell your non-Christian coworker: you have sneezed; please join me in a prayer to Jesus, Our Lord."

Alan

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I bless people and things without asking permission. I never thought it was wrong.

Did you leave traces of your actions? Did people hear you?
Please, as I keep saying, you all need to be very specific.

As the other two have said, it’s all about the Golden Rule. If you don’t want people of other religions leaving on your desk traces or hints of them wanting to turn you over to their beliefs, then don’t do the same to them.

If you wish to pray for them in secret or bless them without them seeing you, that’s you’re right. Such intentions cannot be easily perceived any more than if you were to to mentally curse the person and make rude gestures behind their backs. (Assuming of course, nobody else saw you. )

On the other hand, don’t be stupid to think people aren’t going to notice the splashes of water that has messed up their workplace. As I’ve stated countless time, I certainly would be displeased if I found holy water on my monitor because you thought the pictures on my screensaver were ‘demonic’.

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

You say you’re going sprinkle holy water in her office yet only now you say you say you’re going to make sure none hits a laptop or an important document.

Not what it teaches? You just conceded in accepting the authority I cited which in turn justifies everything I have said to you. Saying people are speaking against Church teaching is an accusation I take very seriously.

Also, it’s very ironic that you consider firing an unfounded accusation that I am opposing the Church yet believe you are not being self-righteous.

Your whole post was basically about splashing holy water! There is nothing wrong with it, and anyone with any common sense at all isn’t going to sprinkle it on electronic devices or personal property that can be damaged–END OF STORY. That’s why I, or anyone else, need not specify that we’re going to make sure the water doesn’t hit a laptop, for crying out loud, because it’s insulting to one’s intelligence to presume they wouldn’t take these things into consideration.

No, you’re authority doesn’t justify “everything you’ve said” in the least. It only justifies things you have said about exorcisms, which have nothing to do with anything that anyone has discussed from the start of this thread. In psychology, and I’m sure other practices as well, they call that reliability without validity. Your exorcism source is reliable for talking about exorcisms, but invalid for talking about something else.

Saying people are speaking against Church teaching is something I take very seriously too. I first said it to you when you argued against the concept of praying unceasingly. This isn’t an unfounded accusation, it’s clearly demonstrated, and there is nothing self righteous about that.

Let’s end the redundancy. It’s like little by little I’ve been breaking off pieces of your argument, so you ignore most of the points I’ve made in your reply, then argue what ever you have left. Now you’re down to debating about sprinkling holy water and displaying anger about the fact you don’t like being told when you make a statement contrary to the Church. I think I’m done.

Have you prayed for me yet? Because I sent up a decade of the rosary in your honor… So I would appreciate some prayers!!

 

[LordLove7_11_11]

I think the Lord can and does use all things for the good of those who love Him. So even if it doesn’t support that main point in the thread, God can make good out of all of it – including this unrequested missive from me.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That’s why I, or anyone else, need not specify that we’re going to make sure the water doesn’t hit a laptop, for crying out loud, because it’s insulting to one’s intelligence to presume they wouldn’t take these things into consideration.

Trust me, I’ve seen people on this site attempt to do worse. If you think I don’t have a right to presume the worst of anyone invading other people’s property in the name of their religion, then you obviously need to hang around here more.

No, you’re authority doesn’t justify “everything you’ve said” in the least. It only justifies things you have said about exorcisms, which have nothing to do with anything that anyone has discussed from the start of this thread.

I’ve said, again and again, that it also applies to oppression and other spiritual maladies. You haven’t disproved anything. You unjustly accused me of going against Church teaching when I am simply following procedures of sensibility and good conduct advised by veteran exorcists.

Saying people are speaking against Church teaching is something I take very seriously too. I first said it to you when you argued against the concept of praying unceasingly. This isn’t an unfounded accusation, it’s clearly demonstrated, and there is nothing self righteous about that.

I never said anything against “praying ceasingly”. I ignore posts, not because I cannot argue against them, but because they are irrelevant. My issue with you is the fact that you are planning to sneak into someone’s property against their will and perform a religious ceremony.

If anyone’s ignoring anything, it is you. I’ve asked more than two times already how you would feel if someone from another religion attempted something in the same manner as you did (Buddhist reciting a mantra in your office, Wiccan putting herbs in your Bible).

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I hear a voice.

It is in my imagination, but it is compelling.

The voice says, “the lion will lay down with the lamb.”

The voice says, “communication without common assumptions hurts, but it doesn’t need to.”

The voice says, “if you don’t believe it, do you not believe that with God anything is possible?”

I appreciate what you all are saying, but I need to ask, without regard to what anybody posted explicitly or implicitly, in the past, where do we stand now as far as the proper way to react to the situation with the coworker.

I offer the following to try to establish a common starting point:

1. do we agree that splashing holy water in their workspace or otherwise in their physical domain, without their consent, is to be avoided?
2. do we agree that if she is not harming herself or others, that we should not turn her in to the authorities?
3. do we have some guidelines about under what condition we should even approach her, and what approach to take?

If we start with a common set of statements we can all buy into, then maybe we can wrestle our way into regions where we haven’t yet seen how we agree.

Alan

 

[BluesPicker]

Hi Everybody,

      I hope everybody is praying for this woman to be healed.   I  would like to ask a hypothetical question: What  could or would  one  do  if  Holy Water presented to this person who is suspected of being possessed  if a full blown manisfestation of  demons  occured?    What do you think would happen? What happens when an exorcists prays over a person silently  and they are possessed and  a reaction occurs?

BP