Cognitive neuroscience and the soul

[grannymh]

I think the concept of “soul” is a dreviative of the “ghost in the machine” concept made so famous because of DeCartes. The real question, seems to me, is what is the “self”.

This is what I think the self is— it is the subjective experience of a physical organism in the present.Quite a mouth full, I know.

This subjective experience is only possible as a result of a the particular psysiology of a functioning brain… What medieval scholars used to say were aspects of the soul (will, intellect, memory etc) are actually only functions of the physiology I have described.

Consider that whatever we experiece, it is always in the present. It is always subjective and it is always singular (I cannot therefore share my subjective experience with you except only to tell you how I feel or what I sense). It is always in the present, because once experienced, it is gone and the most I can do is to experience a memory of the past experience.

Hence, we don’t make choices–we experience our choices. You perhaps will not like the conclusion that this leads to because it obviates free will. This is because, there is no person (soul) inside of us which makes the decision to steal or not steal a loaf of bread. Rather what there is is a functioning human body which behaves in its environment with its given physiology, and, by means of a state of consciousness then experiences feelings, emotions, thoughts, behavior and, of course, its “choices”.

The concept of self is certainly an important issue for both those familiar with human nature as described by Catholicism and those not familiar with the Catholic distinction between Cartesian extreme dualism and actual human nature. It is not my intention to discuss the concept of “self” but rather to deal with the Cartesian principle which, believe it or not, was cited in a recent published research paper.

Actually the “ghost in the machine” concept is still viable as some scientists are still looking for the physical location of this ghost in our mechanical anatomy.

To cut to the chase. The Catholic teaching is that human nature is an unique unification of both the material world and the spiritual world. Spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, instead the union of spirit and matter, rational soul and decomposing anatomy forms a single human nature.

 

[buffalo]

I read that before and still I am asking the same questions.
Again, human spirit is understood more as a consciousness or personality.

Another possibility is a definition of ‘spiritual dimensions’ in order to distinguish between God and its creations.
God is outside of any dimensions. God’s creations are in dimensions. Material world has dimensions - spacetime. Spiritual world has some other spiritual dimensions. Is our soul created/born right away in this spiritual dimensions at our conception? Does it have to be?
Can we move to this spiritual dimensions after death? Why not?

The soul is the animating principle of all life. Human life has an added dimension in that it is immortal. Plants and animals lack this attribute.

 

[Jaaanosik]

The soul is the animating principle of all life. Human life has an added dimension in that it is immortal. Plants and animals lack this attribute.

… and I don’t deny that.
What if the animation is done by brain and the nervous system and that’s what our soul is temporarily?

 

[buffalo]

… and I don’t deny that.
What if the animation is done by brain and the nervous system and that’s what our soul is temporarily?

I think that is the idea behind the thread. Science has failed to explain consciousness. Catholics understand that the immortal soul is the animating principle since it lives on after death. So the body fails and there is a separation of body and soul.

To add to the discussion, at the second coming we will be rejoined with our glorified body.

 

[Jaaanosik]

I think that is the idea behind the thread. Science has failed to explain consciousness. Catholics understand that the immortal soul is the animating principle since it lives on after death. So the body fails and there is a separation of body and soul.

To add to the discussion, at the second coming we will be rejoined with our glorified body.

Why do you say that? Did you go through some of the links provided here in this thread? The opposite what you claim is slowly happening.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

It seems it starts with processing of words.
This is an interesting development in mind reading.

As great a step as that would be in cognitive neuroscience, it is still analysis of third-person data in terms of structure and function as it only correlates with first person data. But it doesn’t show how you get from third-person data to first-person data: how do neuronal electrochemical processes become a conscious experience in a conscious self? How do they become consciousness?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I think the concept of “soul” is a dreviative of the “ghost in the machine” concept made so famous because of DeCartes. The real question, seems to me, is what is the “self”.

That is wrong. The Catholic Church has always known that the Soul is the animating principle of the Human Being. The Church has always taught that the Human Person is a composit being, composed of two dependent principles, the body and the soul. Man is able to know the objective truth about the world he finds himself in. He experiences the world outside himself and makes true judgments about it. He knows both the beings outside himself with certitude and their natures through a process of abstraction, cognitive judgment, and reasoning. From these he forms concepts and relates the concepts one to another through the reasoning process to arrive at truth.

This is what I think the self is— it is the subjective experience of a physical organism in the present.Quite a mouth full, I know.

Sorry to hear it. You should read the Summa Theologiae.

This subjective experience is only possible as a result of a the particular psysiology of a functioning brain… What medieval scholars used to say were aspects of the soul (will, intellect, memory etc) are actually only functions of the physiology I have described.

Nuts.

Consider that whatever we experiece, it is always in the present. It is always subjective and it is always singular (I cannot therefore share my subjective experience with you except only to tell you how I feel or what I sense). It is always in the present, because once experienced, it is gone and the most I can do is to experience a memory of the past experience.

Your experience is subjective only in the sense that you are having it. But your perception of reality is true enough or you could not function as an intelligent human being, you would not be able to function at all. The fact that you are carrying on this discussion gives the lie to your theories. When we compare notes and we agree, then we conclude that we have arrived at the truth about reality. This is the way science has progressed. Science could not exist if you did not know reality as it existed and could not make objectively true judgments about it.

Hence, we don’t make choices–we experience our choices. You perhaps will not like the conclusion that this leads to because it obviates free will. This is because, there is no person (soul) inside of us which makes the decision to steal or not steal a loaf of bread. Rather what there is is a functioning human body which behaves in its environment with its given physiology, and, by means of a state of consciousness then experiences feelings, emotions, thoughts, behavior and, of course, its “choices”.

You are welcome to make any conclusion you wish, no skin off our noses. But your position is absolutely irrational. And I suspect it is taken for idiological reasons because no sane person could hold it with sincerity. I know a lot of the secular " grand pubahs " have been speading this tripe for a long time. But really, it is too ridiculous for really intelligent people to hold.

The reason behind it is that they are deathly affraid to admit the existence of a spiritual soul because that would necessarily imply that God exists. Well, so what, what is so freightening about that. If He exists, no man can escape the consequences of that fact, no matter how much he denies it. The consequences of His existence will come down on the believing and the non-believing and no one can stop it. Satan new God existed but he didn’t let that freignten him. The modern secularist just doesn’t measure up by comparison. By comparison, he is a coward. Nietzsche may have been insane, at least he was a man, no half measures for him, no beating about the bush.

 

[grannymh]

Why do you say that? Did you go through some of the links provided here in this thread? The opposite what you claim is slowly happening.

I am a tad curious.

Why is it that you continue to present pet theories about the soul, when Catholic teaching is so clear? Divine Revelation trumps!

 

[Linusthe2nd]

There is pretty good evidence that people’s personalities and memories are very much linked with their brain structures. Traumatic brain injury patients can undergo loss of mental function and changes in personality and/or temperament.

Not surprizing since man is a composit of body and soul, each depending on the other. The soul, as the substantial form of the body is its unifying principle, the coordinator and organizer of all of man’s physical and spiritual activities and the source of man’s life.

This all points to mental function, emotion, and personality being inseparable from brain cells, tissues, and structures in a very physical way. I would dare posit that identity is dependent on our brains.

O.K. but personality is also inseparable from man’s spiritual functions as well and these are primary since the soul is man’s substantial form.

seems to me that that takes the notions of personality and identity out of our souls.

You were doing fine until this point. Man is called a Person because he is a Nature that exists. That is he is a composit of Body and Soul. His soul is man’s life principle, his rational principle, his organizing, directing principle. And his body is man’s physical principle which has a natural potency for perfection through reception of the Soul, man’s substantial form. And although man’s Soul can exist without the body, it cannot function fully without being united to man’s body. Man exists, becomes a Person when he is embodied by a human soul. Each depends on the other for full activation. What exists is the Person which has a human personality. Man’s Personality depends equally on his body and his soul.

You may study reactions of the body to certain stimulations to the brain. From that you cannot conclude that man’s personality resides in the brain. In fact, such a conclusion would not agree with Church teaching.

The remaining items to your post really aren’t worth discussing.

 

[grannymh]

… and I don’t deny that.
What if the animation is done by brain and the nervous system and that’s what our soul is temporarily?

True Catholic teaching is not based on “what **if **this happens.”

True Catholic teaching is clear that the human person’s eternal (not temporary) rational soul is not the same as any part of her or his decomposing material anatomy.

True Catholic teaching is that humans are able to share in God’s life though His sanctifying grace in our real spiritual soul. One needs to remember that God is not composed of human blood and guts or human brain and nervous system. God is a transcendent Pure Spirit Who shares His life (sanctifying grace) with us by the means our spiritual soul. Or course, humans can freely deny God’s creative powers and instead look to human theories about the material, biological anatomy as if man is not also spiritual.

 

[grannymh]

What if the animation is done by brain and the nervous system and that’s what our soul is temporarily?

True Catholic teaching is not based on “what **if **this happens.”

True Catholic teaching is clear that the human person’s eternal (not temporary) rational soul is not the same as any part of her or his decomposing material anatomy.

True Catholic teaching is that humans are able to share in God’s life though His sanctifying grace in our real spiritual soul. One needs to remember that God is not made of human blood and guts or human brain and nervous system. God is a transcendent Pure Spirit Who shares His life (sanctifying grace) with us by the means our spiritual soul. Of course, humans can freely deny God’s creative powers and instead look to human theories about the material, biological anatomy as if man is not also spiritual.

True Catholicism is a joy.

 

[Jaaanosik]

I am a tad curious.

Why is it that you continue to present pet theories about the soul, when Catholic teaching is so clear? Divine Revelation trumps!

The answer is simple and straightforward. The Truth!
The science and religion can not contradict each other. They both try to discover and reveal the Truth.
If a discrepancy pops up then an alignment is needed.

If the neuroscience will show that any thinking, free will decision making is happening in the brain than what? Are we going to keep saying that the thinking is happening in the spiritual soul outside of the material world and the brain is only an interface?
I guess we can do that. What I am saying it’s not necessary to complicate the things (Occam’s razor). That’s what makes the God’s design even more amazing.

 

[grannymh]

The answer is simple and straightforward. The Truth!
The science and religion can not contradict each other. They both try to discover and reveal the Truth.
If a discrepancy pops up then an alignment is needed.

NOT EXACTLY

This is the Catholic position on “Truth”.

In order for “Truth” to occur. Science must be conducted properly and Catholic doctrine must be properly understood.

Obviously, there are some, not all, posts where both Catholic doctrine has not been properly defined *and *where interpreters of science have not extrapolated conclusions in a proper manner warranted by the scientific evidence.

 

[Jaaanosik]

True Catholic teaching is not based on “what **if **this happens.”

**True Catholic teaching is clear that the human person’s eternal (not temporary) rational soul is not the same as any part of her or his decomposing material anatomy.
**
True Catholic teaching is that humans are able to share in God’s life though His sanctifying grace in our real spiritual soul. One needs to remember that God is not made of human blood and guts or human brain and nervous system. God is a transcendent Pure Spirit Who shares His life (sanctifying grace) with us by the means our spiritual soul. Of course, humans can freely deny God’s creative powers and instead look to human theories about the material, biological anatomy as if man is not also spiritual.

True Catholicism is a joy.

I’d like to find out where is it defined that way. As the first starting point I suggest an analysis when the Church talks about a spiritual soul whether it describes the metaphysical meaning as a consciousness/personality or something non-physical that exists in ‘spiritual dimensions’.
There is only one Spirit. God is the Spirit. God has no dimensions.
Any other creation has to have some dimensions - physical (spacetime) or ‘spiritual’.
The spiritual dimensions are unknown to us but they have to exist otherwise if our soul after death is not in physical dimensions then the soul has to exist somewhere else.
The soul without dimensions is not an option otherwise it would be the same as the Spirit and we know it’s not.

My question is where does the Church talks about the spiritual dimensions, how this spiritual dimensions are connected to brain.
If you find a place where the Church talks about soul/spirit try to replace that word with consciousness/personality if it makes the same sense as well. Please, post here only findings where it’s obvious that a soul/spirit is meant to be incorporeal.

If we have those then the question will be if they are being taught infallibly.
Please, remember we are in the philosophy forum and that’s the nature of the discussion. Let’s address post subjects and not posters.

 

[grannymh]

If the neuroscience will show that any thinking, free will decision making is happening in the brain than what? Are we going to keep saying that the thinking is happening in the spiritual soul outside of the material world and the brain is only an interface?
I guess we can do that. What I am saying it’s not necessary to complicate the things (Occam’s razor). That’s what makes the God’s design even more amazing.

May I respectfully point out that the sentence–the post’s subject-- I put in bold is an example of not properly understanding some basic Catholic doctrines.

Would you like to rephrase that sentence – the post’s subject-- to comport with the Catholic doctrines regarding human nature? They can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, starting with paragraph 355.

Thank you.

 

[Jaaanosik]

May I respectfully point out that the sentence–the post’s subject-- I put in bold is an example of not properly understanding some basic Catholic doctrines.

Would you like to rephrase that sentence – the post’s subject-- to comport with the Catholic doctrines regarding human nature? They can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, starting with paragraph 355.

Thank you.

Please, see my post #93 as a reply to this one.

 

[grannymh]

Please, see my post #93 as a reply to this one.

It is a good idea to carefully understand Catholic doctrines so that they can be compared, side by side, with some of the current speculations about human nature.
That way, readers can make informed decisions…

I sincerely understand that some of the points in the Catechism are difficult in the current 21st century. In addition, one often has to use the footnotes. Practical suggestions for reading the Catechism can be found in CCC 18-22, especially CCC 20-21.

This is my general reply to this post and that post and other posts regarding the Truth about our own human nature… Later, I can go back through the thread to check if I missed some points denying the Catholic explanation of the spiritual soul’s existence. Also, I wonder about the way some “words” are used. In the meantime, this is an excellent source of Catholic information.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, starting with paragraph 355.
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=paragraph+355&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Please note that these paragraphs are based on the accepted Catholic belief that the spiritual soul does in fact exist.

Thank you.

 

[Jaaanosik]

It is a good idea to carefully understand Catholic doctrines so that they can be compared, side by side, with some of the current speculations about human nature.
That way, readers can make informed decisions…

I sincerely understand that some of the points in the Catechism are difficult in the current 21st century. In addition, one often has to use the footnotes. Practical suggestions for reading the Catechism can be found in CCC 18-22, especially CCC 20-21.

This is my general reply to this post and that post and other posts regarding the Truth about our own human nature… Later, I can go back through the thread to check if I missed some points denying the Catholic explanation of the spiritual soul’s existence. Also, I wonder about the way some “words” are used. In the meantime, this is an excellent source of Catholic information.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, starting with paragraph 355.
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=paragraph+355&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Please note that these paragraphs are based on the accepted Catholic belief that** the spiritual soul **does in fact exist.

Thank you.

Thanks, correct the spiritual soul does exist.
The question is do we have a strict definition of some kind of spiritual dimensions in this text?
The spiritual dimensions where the spiritual soul exists as an entity? Then this spiritual soul has to be linked/connected/interleaved/united throughout atoms in our brain in order to create one single human nature.
How does that happen?

The issue is how a link between spiritual and our physical spacetime dimensions is established.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks, correct the spiritual soul does exist.
The question is do we have a strict definition of some kind of spiritual dimensions in this text?
The spiritual dimensions where the spiritual soul exists as an entity? Then this spiritual soul has to be linked/connected/interleaved/united throughout atoms in our brain in order to create one single human nature.
How does that happen?

The issue is how a link between spiritual and our physical spacetime dimensions is established.

Catholicism is separate from the influence of Descartes. Thus for Catholics there is no issue about how a link between spiritual and physical spacetime dimensions is established.

 

[grannymh]

There is only one Spirit. God is the Spirit. God has no dimensions.
Any other creation has to have some dimensions - physical (spacetime) or ‘spiritual’.
The spiritual dimensions are unknown to us but they have to exist otherwise if our soul after death is not in physical dimensions then the soul has to exist somewhere else.
The soul without dimensions is not an option otherwise it would be the same as the Spirit and we know it’s not.

As **Jaaanosik **suggested, we are back at post 93.

Here we find this concept which needs tweaking. “There is only one Spirit. God is the Spirit. God has no dimensions.”

The word dimension refers to a measurement of spatial extent, especially width, height or length. At times, the dimensions of a physical object can include time or space. Determining an object’s dimensions can only take place when an object is recognizable physically or because of technology. So far so good.

When we describe God as a pure spirit, it is by definition that He does not have material dimensions because He is not a material physical being. Normally, one can describe this Being as transcendent, i.e., beyond our ordinary world. The American Heritage College Dictionary adds this statement about transcendent. It is “In Kant’s theory of knowledge, being beyond the limits of experience and hence unknowable.” Without serious thinking, it is easy to accept this statement limited by the material world or by some form of the philosophy of materialism.

With some serious thinking, it can be reasoned that a pure spirit exists in a separate spiritual world which does not have the restrictions of physical measurements, i.e., dimensions. Catholicism teaches that God is a pure spirit; but, Catholicism does not stop with that teaching. Catholicism teaches that God created the material universe and its material inhabitants. (Genesis 1: 1) Genesis 1: 26-27 gives an unique description of a peerless creature whose nature is in the image of the spiritual Creator. That does not mean that the human person is the same as God–which is obvious because we have the physical dimensions of height, etc. and when we fall from an apple tree, we hit the ground. It means that our very being shares in a marvelous yet mysterious way in the nature of God and the spiritual world. We know that God is beyond the limits of our material world but contrary to Kant’s idea, God is knowable. Catholicism is specific when it teaches that we are not two natures (spiritual and physical) combined; rather it is the very union, itself, which forms the single nature which is human’s.

The reason we can know God in our limited manner is that God Himself created human nature as an unification of* both* the material world and the spiritual world. The human creature is not the same as its Creator; however, the human creature can be created with aspects of the spiritual world of God. Catholicism teaches that God calls each person to share in His divine life through knowledge and love.

It is our rational spiritual principle (soul) which gives our material brain its unique capabilities or functions.

Being individually created by God, there is no material reason for the spiritual soul to have material height and width. God being God the sole, unique Creator is not limited or restricted by His material creatures which do have height and width. This should be obvious since God is transcendent or supernatural.