Cohabitating?

[agapewolf]

Why are you saying that our feelings have gone too far for a couple who are not married?

I didn’t say this, but i’d like to respond. The poster who did say this might wish to weigh in also.

We must guard our hearts, to not let love arise before its time. This means, in the courtship, allowing romantic feelings to guide and take part in the relationship to early can so easily skew discernment. This is also a reason for no sexual behavior before marriage. It has the power to bond and allows people to gloss over other’s faults…usually the big ones too.

I dated someone a long time ago that I thought I was going to marry. This was when I was waaaaay young. I was planning the wedding early in. Well, when that relationship broke up, I was devasted, not only because of the loss of the relationship, but grieving the loss of the whole new life position I was going to take. My heart had already bought into everything.

A few years ago, I dated someone that the first few times we discussed all deal breakers. Dating is for the sake of finding a spouse, and we didn’t want to invest our hearts into a relationship that was not going anywhere. After we discovered that be both willed good for each other, that our souls were safe with each other, and that we agreed on all the dealbreaker issues, then it was time to get to know each other, enjoy each other’s company, etc. It was enjoyable. He had discovered in this process that he thinks he has a call to the priesthood. Had we allowed ourselves all sorts of romantic feelings right away, this not only would have been devastating to me, but he might not have seen clearly to see the possible calling.

Another guy and I, at the same point, discovered that the chemistry wasn’t right. No hard feelings, we are still friends, but we didn’t spend a year in this relationship that wasn’t going anywhere becasue we didn’t allow the romance to over shadow everything.

Now the point that you are, you aren’t even engaged yet. Romantic feelings can come into play, sure. Its not a bad thing, but there are still some parts kept that are meant only for marriage.

I didn’t mention this before because for some reason I thought you were engaged. The divorce statistics of couples who cohabititate after they have decided to get married, but before the wedding, are lower than those who just cohabititate because are dating and not necessarily thinking of a life together. This is of course including the fact that most of these couples are having pre-marital sex.

But the idea is the same here…you haven’t even discerned that you will be getting married yet. Being roommates will not make that discernment easier, but waaaaay more difficult. there is no clarity.

 

[GodIsGracious]

There are also many reasons why not. One is fidelity – if in fact, you marry someone else – how would that person feel about all the feelings you had and have as memories in your heart of that other, former person.

And that future possible spouse will know, someday – all of our lives are revealed by God in the end. Exactly how faithful you were is revealed, completely, beginning to end. Every kiss, every deed, every thought, every motion of the heart and your desires and will.

Well, I read this, and yes, in the context of your whole post, I took this to mean that if a person had loved someone else before, or lived with them, that 1) their future spouse can never trust them, and 2) their future spouse can never feel truly loved. (You mentioned in another paragraph about loving so many people cheapens it.)

I don’t believe that. By this you don’t give a person the opportunity to change and have already condemned them.

 

[Shin]

Well, I read this, and yes, in the context of your whole post, I took this to mean that if a person had loved someone else before, or lived with them, that 1) their future spouse can never trust them, and 2) their future spouse can never feel truly loved. (You mentioned in another paragraph about loving so many people cheapens it.)

I don’t believe that. By this you don’t give a person the opportunity to change and have already condemned them.

Change and repentance, are always there, but we cannot deny the bad effects of our past actions – in our interior, in other people’s lives, and so forth.

Sins are forgiven, the scars remain. You can break a priceless sculpture, and be forgiven for it. But who will put the sculpture back together again?

 

[GodIsGracious]

Change and repentance, are always there, but we cannot deny the bad effects of our past actions – in our interior, in other people’s lives, and so forth.

Sins are forgiven, the scars remain. You can break a priceless sculpture, and be forgiven for it. But who will put the sculpture back together again?

I still don’t believe that. At all.

You apparently feel that people cannot rise above their past and that people will judge others. That’s fine. It happens all the time. Those are the people that I tend to filter out of my life.

 

[EeyoresButerfly]

Shin, I see what you are saying, but I do not agree with it.

I do not believe that we possess love in limited quantities and that each time we feel a form of love it mens that we have less love to give. Do you love your third child less because you already have two? Do you love each child the same way? No. There are many different types of love. A already knows about any “romantic” history in my past and vice versa.

We are both intelligent and practical people and that is the basis for our relationship. We have been dating for over a year and a half and have had very serious conversations about our future both as individuals and as a couple.Believe me, our relationship is based on more than just feelings.

I just think it seems a bit presumptious to judge our relationship or feelings for each other without even knowing us or knowing the whole situation.

I do plan to talk to my priest about this. I honestly want to be a “good” Catholic but I am having a hard time understanding this particular prohibition if the couple is committed to remaining chaste. Is there a specific part of the Bible or the Catechism that talks about this?

I am fairly new to the faith (former Southern Baptist) so there is still a lot to learn, and I’m hoping I can do that in a place that does not form judgments on its members based on a few words in a post.

 

[Shin]

I still don’t believe that. At all.

You apparently feel that people cannot rise above their past and that people will judge others. That’s fine. It happens all the time. Those are the people that I tend to filter out of my life.

Try not to misinterpret what I have said.

I can see you feel strongly about this, perhaps because of a hard past, rather than facing some hard truths. It is true there is redemption and many things can be overcome. But it is equally true, that each moment passes away into the past, and what is done is set forever.

If you murder a man, it would take a miracle to bring him back to life – and you still would have once murdered him. You can be forgiven, but the past is the past.

Thankfully God grants us forgetfulness, and yes, there is healing. But the time, effort and difficulties are greater than people know.

And this is part of why Christianity, true Christianity and a true Christian life… for the young ones… from the beginning… unscandalized… is so precious.

 

[EeyoresButerfly]

I still don’t believe that. At all.

You apparently feel that people cannot rise above their past and that people will judge others. That’s fine. It happens all the time. Those are the people that I tend to filter out of my life.

 

[EeyoresButerfly]

Try not to misinterpret what I have said.

I can see you feel strongly about this, perhaps because of a hard past, rather than facing some hard truths. It is true there is redemption and many things can be overcome. But it is equally true, that each moment passes away into the past, and what is done is set forever.

If you murder a man, it would take a miracle to bring him back to life – and you still would have once murdered him. You can be forgiven, but the past is the past.

Thankfully God grants us forgetfulness, and yes, there is healing. But the time, effort and difficulties are greater than people know.

And this is part of why Christianity, true Christianity and a true Christian life… for the young ones… from the beginning… unscandalized… is so precious.

But we’re not talking murder here, we are talking relationships. Apples and Oranges. You stated that every time we have a feeling for another person cheapens love and that our future spouse will judge us for every relationship. That is a sad way to live. would hope that whoever you love is able to see past your msitakes (and we all have mistakes in our past). If people continue to beat themselves up about the past, they are going to be more likely to repeat it, to feel unlovable which in part leads to sin because they feel that God cannot forgive them, and is it any wonder why when these types of attitudes are so prevalent?

 

[Shin]

But we’re not talking murder here, we are talking relationships. Apples and Oranges. You stated that every time we have a feeling for another person cheapens love and that our future spouse will judge us for every relationship. That is a sad way to live. would hope that whoever you love is able to see past your msitakes (and we all have mistakes in our past). If people continue to beat themselves up about the past, they are going to be more likely to repeat it, to feel unlovable which in part leads to sin because they feel that God cannot forgive them, and is it any wonder why when these types of attitudes are so prevalent?

My expression using murder was to show the finality of what we do in the past, both in that it -is done- and that -it has consequences that cannot be undone-.

You point out, that in regards to feelings, this is not the case. I shall use a different comparison, more apt to the feelings directly. A husband and wife are married, one of the spouses commits adultery. What then, is the harm done to the feelings between the two?

Certainly there can be forgiveness, certainly, with people who are miracles of holiness, the feelings can be completely restored to their former state of trust. But how often is this the case? And how often should it be – after all what if there is not true repentance? And in the cases of these wonderful people of grace – How often in fact, despite even the good will of one to forgive, the devil does not come and torment both spouses for the rest of their natural lives with thoughts of it?

I am not saying that forgiveness does not exist, I am saying that the wounds done by these deeds persist. And it is also true that psychologically what we treat lightly, the passions surrounding love, the worse it is for us in many ways in the future. Certainly much can be overcome – but who would want to have to ask anyone to overcome it? Is it a fair burden? It has to be forgiven after all. We should aim not to have anything that has to be forgiven.

The horrors of a non-Christian way of life are not light.

We should have lives that we lived from beginning to end, we would not be afraid to show our future spouse.

Both on this earth, and Our Lord in the next.

If we have not, we have to seek forgiveness. Forgiveness exists but we must not presume or treat it lightly.

I will next address further how it is not the standard to cohabit and that this is Tradition, and remind people that there are no exceptions that break standards, they are only separate exceptions.

 

[Shin]

Welcome to the Faith. I will help you out with this advice: Listen to what the saints have to say as if Christ Himself had sent them down to speak with you. For He has. Take what they say with the greatest gravity if you wish to go to Heaven, they are the only ones we know with certainty have made the journey.

If you look for advice on how to go someplace terribly important that many do not reach, it is best to ask someone who actually reached the destination. . .

In regards to cohabitation being forbidden – It is Tradition – and such a standard to be unquestioned, as if – who would question this in Christian society?

Cohabitation is spoken of as, ‘living in sin’, and ‘fornication’, throughout Christian writings. In other words it is a synonym for such, not merely for living together – and for essential reasons.

The fundamental reasons it is include: occasions of sin, modesty, the proper behavior of each state in life (married, unmarried), scandal, lust, the damage it does respect to marriage, and so forth. These are reasons that are each to do with strict Catholic principles a person has to learn about to be properly Catholic.

It is essential that you understand and study each one in your heart.

Standards always have exceptions – such as a temporary exception of danger of life, etc. but these do not change the standards, and even in such a case might not always be overlooked, but an alternative sought at risk.

Try listening to some of the audio sermons below to learn some of the basics, or reading the Baltimore Catechism which is clear about defining circumstances that are treated more generally in the adult Catechism.

A Christian must learn about: modesty, occasions of sin, chastity, and for the free, both about discernment of vocation, and both vocations. So I suggest starting with these topics, and keeping in mind Christ’s words on the subject of purity of heart.

I will give you a sample from beginning to end on this matter, but it should not be necessary to a Christian heart – to truly understand Christianity you would understand that this has always been forbidden in Christian society – from the time of Christ, to, today. For the sake of purity.

The First Council of Nicea (325 A.D.) went further than the basic standard for the unmarried – because it is presumed everyone would already understand this – but because of poor example from some bad priests – made clear to forbid it for priests and deacons:

“We decree that bishops shall not live with women; nor shall a presbyter who is a widower; neither shall they escort them; nor be familiar with them, nor gaze upon them persistently. And the same decree is made with regard to every celibate priest, and the same concerning such deacons as have no wives. And this is to be the case whether the woman be beautiful or ugly, whether a young girl or beyond the age of puberty, whether great in birth, or an orphan taken out of charity under pretext of bringing her up. For the devil with such arms slays religious, bishops, presbyters, and deacons, and incites them to the fires of desire. But if she be an old woman, and of advanced age, or a sister, or mother, or aunt, or grandmother, it is permitted to live with these because such persons are free from all suspicion of scandal.

The Council in Trullo, 692 A.D.:

If the wife of a man who has gone away and does not appear, cohabit with another before she is assured of the death of the first, she is an adulteress.

The Bishops of Kansas, Pastoral Letter, 1998:

Today many couples (those who are engaged and those who are not) prepare for their possible married life together by cohabiting, or “living together,” before marriage. Their reasons for doing so are many and varied. However, a view that is commonly held is that couples who live together before marriage can more adequately determine if their lifetime commitment to one another as husband and wife is possible. Two generations ago living together before marriage was viewed as scandalous by our society. Young people were strongly discouraged from cohabiting. As a society, that view has been greatly challenged today. Between 30 percent and 40 percent of couples seeking marriage in the United States today are living together. Many people see cohabiting not only as permissible, but even as necessary to attempt to diminish the possibility of divorce or marital unhappiness later in the life of the couple.

The church does not believe that cohabitation before marriage is a moral or acceptable preparation for this sacred bond. Rather, the church sees cohabitation as a threat to the marital happiness that engaged couples so desperately seek. Cohabitation as an actual threat to marital happiness has furthermore been borne out in recent research studies done by today’s social sciences, as will be quoted in the following section.

Archbishop Michael Sheehan, November 2000:

Unfortunately, many couples who ask to be married in the Church come confused and are already living together. Even though cohabitation is widely accepted in our society, it is clearly contrary to the teaching of the Word of God. St. Paul says that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters . . . will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 6:9-10).

The Church teaches that cohabitation and sexual union between the unmarried is sinful (see Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 2350-2400), and as such undermines the very holiness of life one seeks in the Sacrament of Matrimony. Cohabitation is scandalous and detracts from the sacredness of marriage.

Cohabitation is a sin. So one doesn’t do it. Just say no to the passions, and restrain a heart for God.

 

[EeyoresButerfly]

But in the examples you are posting the term cohabitation and the concept of living together is being used interchangeably with the idea of premarital sex. I even looked up on the Ask an Apologist on the issue and everything linked to was specifically about premarital sex, it did not look at cohabitation as a separate issue.

I also find it odd that you insinuated in your post (and forgive me if I misinterpret it) that we are not allowed to ask questions. If I had not dared to examine and question my beliefs and those of my church, I would never have become Catholic in the first place. Maybe it’s the way you word your posts, but it really feels like you are being very judgmental, with comments like “A Christian heart won’t need that.” I’m sorry I’m not as perfect as everybody else around here and truly want to understand the reasoning behind the prohibition. I was hoping that I could come here and get answers without being judged, especially as I am asking the question in an honest effort to live the kind of life God wants.

 

[Shin]

But in the examples you are posting the term cohabitation and the concept of living together is being used interchangeably with the idea of premarital sex. I even looked up on the Ask an Apologist on the issue and everything linked to was specifically about premarital sex, it did not look at cohabitation as a separate issue.

I also find it odd that you insinuated in your post (and forgive me if I misinterpret it) that we are not allowed to ask questions. If I had not dared to examine and question my beliefs and those of my church, I would never have become Catholic in the first place. Maybe it’s the way you word your posts, but it really feels like you are being very judgmental, with comments like “A Christian heart won’t need that.” I’m sorry I’m not as perfect as everybody else around here and truly want to understand the reasoning behind the prohibition. I was hoping that I could come here and get answers without being judged, especially as I am asking the question in an honest effort to live the kind of life God wants.

I apologize for that. Of course you should ask questions.

There is something to do with the heart and purity of heart necessary for approaching Christ involved here. It is a real purity and freedom from too great emotional attachments, and a great respect for avoiding any occasion that would cause the carnal passions to be worked up or be a danger.

Perhaps you are familiar with the Old Testament teachings about purity. These are all indicators the great respect needed for spiritual purity. We do not follow the old ritual law, but we do follow the spiritual law underneath, and have a new rule for life.

 

[EeyoresButerfly]

I guess I still dont understand your comment about how a Christian heart would not need to seek understanding.

I’ll be very blunt here: When I switched denominations, I was subjected to some very serious emotional abuse at the hands of my pastor. He made very similar comments in that he said that if I were a true Christian I would not be questioning his teachings, seeking truth, etc. That is why such comments rub me the wrong way. I was told, in front of a congregation I had come to greatly respect that I had never been truly saved or I would not be doing what I was doing (and if you know anything about the Baptist denomination you will know that is the absolute worst thing you can say to somebody). I was told that I was headed for hell, that the church was the Whore of Babylon and that Catholics even kill Christians in other countries just because they could get away with it. I even had a Baptist catechism thrown at my head. I was completely and utterly humiliated.

When I see comments like that, it brings back all those memories. I am a very intellectual person, it is in my nature to question why and to seek to truly understand, not just take everything at face value, especially as it is has been my experience that there are many things that people “know” about our faith that are based on half truths- even fellow Catholics!

 

[Shin]

There is a natural law about purity written in the heart.

Some are closer, some are farther, from knowing this. To recall it, one must become like a little child before God.

So in that sense, if you do question, yes, there is something wrong in the heart – The question should be answered, but it is a bad sign that it is asked – because a heart in the right place would not have to ask. We are all sinners. Some of us understand some matters, others others.

So, what I have to say to you, is question but also study what the saints and Christ have to say about purity, and try to discover that law of perfect fidelity in the heart.

I am sorry to say what I have to say, but that is the way things are.

I pray that you become free from any emotional anger, hurt, and so forth from your previous experiences, and contemplate all these matters with peace, without which we cannot see. Peace be to you.

 

[EeyoresButerfly]

Then I cannot continue in this conversation with you and bid you adieu. I do not believe that questioning something like this when it is not our intent to enter into any kind of sin is evidence of impurity. If our hearts were impure we would not seek the counsel of those in our respective denominations and would just go along with it. I cannot be a part of a site where members who seek counsel and understanding are instead judged and told that it is a sin simply to ask. Good day. You will not see me around again.

 

[Shin]

It seems I have said too much, I apologize.

It is hard for people to accept sin in their own hearts, for myself without exception.

I see you partly misunderstand me, so I haven’t said it all clearly though it seems so to me. I have not said anything untrue to my knowledge, but that it was not the time or way to say it.

 

[GraceDK]

My boyfriend and I are in somewhat of an ethical dilemma and I would appreciate your all’s help. I recently accepted a teaching job in his area and have bought a house. He’s hoping to get a teaching job in the same area and move out of his parents’ house. We’re both recent grad students, so not a lot of money, plus teachers don’t make that much.

We’ve been kicking around the idea of living in the same house. I have no doubt that one day we will marry. In fact, he has said he plans to propose once he has a stable job. We are both extremely committed to a Christian relationship in which sex takes place only within the confines of a monogamous marriage. In the year and a half we have been dating we have only kissed twice! We would not share a bedroom, he would sleep in one of the guest rooms.

Financially, it makes sense. Practically, it makes sense. We would be able to spolit the bills, and he would only have to move one time. But I know that cohabitating before marriage is generally frowned upon. It seems that the reason it is frowned upon is because there is an assumption that cohabitation= sex. But for us that would not be the case. We have stayed in the same hotel room (sleeping in separate beds) when travelling, and never had a problem. We are both very much committed to abstinence until marriage, so why would cohabitation be a problem? I keep going back and forth on this and wanted your advice. Thanks!

Thing I keep asking my self is: Do you guys feel sexually attracted to each other?
I know I could never ever do what you are planning to do… I would fall into lustful thoughts and get tempted and maybe even cross the line.
It would be so easy to sit on the couch at night … no one going home and just sitting there into the late hours… At least this happend to me in the past because of heavy attraction and being in love and I did not even live with anyone.
You will do what you want to do… thats how it is.
The hard question is always when facing difficult dilemmas: What would Jesus do?
Also to ask one self: Can I tell my friends, family, priest and, not least, my future children
that I cohabitated before I said yes at the alter?

It’s all up to you. If your conscience is totally clear then you will do what you want to do… if not… then the feeling will not go away and it is a problem in it self.

Lastly: You have my respect. Wow… two kisses since you have become a couple… that’s an awesome sign of character and holy zeal. Good for you
Maybe the devil is seeing that great example of chastity and wants to create some new temptations… at any rate: proceed with caution.
besides… why don’t you get married really fast?

Ps. By the way… LOVE IS A FEELING… a deep, lasting, wonderful, strong, dizzying, amazing feeling that, if its strong enough, also becomes an attitude and a commitment for life …

 

[GraceDK]

I guess I still dont understand your comment about how a Christian heart would not need to seek understanding.

I’ll be very blunt here: When I switched denominations, I was subjected to some very serious emotional abuse at the hands of my pastor. He made very similar comments in that he said that if I were a true Christian I would not be questioning his teachings, seeking truth, etc. That is why such comments rub me the wrong way. I was told, in front of a congregation I had come to greatly respect that I had never been truly saved or I would not be doing what I was doing (and if you know anything about the Baptist denomination you will know that is the absolute worst thing you can say to somebody). I was told that I was headed for hell, that the church was the Whore of Babylon and that Catholics even kill Christians in other countries just because they could get away with it. I even had a Baptist catechism thrown at my head. I was completely and utterly humiliated.

When I see comments like that, it brings back all those memories. I am a very intellectual person, it is in my nature to question why and to seek to truly understand, not just take everything at face value, especially as it is has been my experience that there are many things that people “know” about our faith that are based on half truths- even fellow Catholics!

Amen, amen!
Please, also forgive us.
We are often no better than our Baptist brethren…
But what most of us have said was meant to save you and others from harm. I know my post was…you see, I got burned… so sometimes I go into a screem: “DOOOOONNNTTTT DOOO ITTTT”… coz I am like choking on the words: don’t ever put your purity at stake… Its because I got somehow crazy through my own falls… I reckon this happend to quite a few on these threads… so please bear with us. We know that its the small insignificant steps that lead to the abyss.

I know what you are saying… I am also a convert.
My conversion came through an Evangelical couple who had the gift of healing and prophesy and most importantly by an orthodox mystic who is controversial among many Catholics…
and my entering the RCC came through Medjugorje…
I have gone from being a nominal christian to being a serious one, from one denomination to the catholic church… and still sometimes when I argue or question things I am called a rebel, or it’s insinuated that I am flirting with heresy.
From one evangelical I was told I am going to hell if I stay catholic… So… I guess I am in a sticky spot.
Also… I say to people: “Go to medjugorje!!!” And some Catholics say to me: If you advocate Medjugorje then you are disobeying the Church"… And I am like… If it was not for Medjugorje I was not even in the Church, so… “GO TO MEDJUGORJE!”

Its not easy to be a disciple today… from the sound of it you are doing a heck of a lot better than I. I am really pleased to meet you.
And… the experience you had at the baptist church… the humiliation was your baptism through painful fire, a martyrdom, which is undoubtedly great in the eyes of God !

 

[agapewolf]

Shin, I see what you are saying, but I do not agree with it.

I do not believe that we possess love in limited quantities and that each time we feel a form of love it mens that we have less love to give. Do you love your third child less because you already have two? Do you love each child the same way? No. There are many different types of love. A already knows about any “romantic” history in my past and vice versa.

t.

You keep describing love as a feeling. You have to stop that.

There are not many different types of love. Jesus loved us with an eros love completely within an agape love. We are called to love others that way as well.
Eros and agape should not be torn apart. Read theology of the body.

It seems here that you have already decided what you are going to do. You know in your heart what is right though, and we have given LOADS of reasons why it is also a bad idea, but you won’t take it to you heart.

You aren’t even engaged to this guy! You haven’t even had the proper discernment time with a priest and you are going to live with the person. You will be blinded in your discernment if you do this, going into the living situation with the attitude that you can leave if you wanted. It wont’ magically change after a wedding. It will still have that aspect in the back of your mind.

Please, take a step back and reevaluate the relationship. If he is willing to put you into a near occasion of sin, or cause scandal involving you perhaps your evaluation of him needs to be re-evaluated too.

 

[Jea9]

I think the problem with your seeing this as scandal is in understanding what the meaning of scandal is. My (now) fiance explained this to me a long time ago like this. People know that you are ‘a good, Catholic couple’. They will think (and no, it is not your fault it is society and the secularized view everyone has) that it is highly unlikely that a couple who is planning to marry is not having pre-marital sex. And if you honestly think that you can avoid temptation like that for an extended period of time…wow, impressive.But the scandal is that these people, knowing what good, strong Catholics you are, will think that if you guys are such good Catholics and you do it that it must be ok for them to do it. Because they’re not even as good of Catholics as you are. And, even if they know and believe you that you will not be engaging in pre-marital sex…they may think they can avoid temptation like you could and they may not be as strong as you are. Do you think that you don’t have a moral obligation to try keep others from sinning? We all do.

I have to say though my thoughts are that if you want to live together, know that you want to be married…what the heck are you waiting for?