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bluebelle
Guest
It is alarming, but it is true. I actually talked to a teacher’s aide at a very traditional Catholic school who was living with her fiance and when asked at a party if those at the school objected, she said, “they’ve all done the same themselves” - it’s enough to make you give up . . . it seems so unfair - we’ve created this culture where the whole person is devalued to such an extent and people attach a very cheap price to the gift of their sexuality.
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Smber2c
Guest
This may be true, but it is also incredibly saddening. My girlfriend and I didn’t have our first kiss until about 5 months in b/c I knew we had to pace ourselves physically. Catholic couples need to actively decide they are going to be counter cultural in patience, purity, and all the other areas society’s fallen off track.
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Smber2c
Guest
I present exhibit #1A of where Lousiana’s culture of Catholicism has been poisoned and totally lost it’s ability to catechise my generation.
And for Exhibit #1B:
Just last month I went with my family to mass at the St. Louis Cathedral. Archbishop Hughes gave a homily instructing the faithful on how we should conduct ourselves in mass. (things like not chatting before or after mass in the sancuary; or not wearing cloths that may create distraction or temptation for others)
As we left my own brother wanted to know, “why he (the archbishop) should be able to tell people what they can or can’t do.”
Yeah, that’s my brother who went to Catholic elementary school, highschool, and 2 Catholic colleges asking why an Archbishop thinks he can instruct people on their conduct during a mass in the Cathedral of his diocese…
I’m sure religion teachers try, but reality is their influence can seldom hold a candle to the influence of the society people are living in.
It took 13 years of New Orleans’ best avaliable Catholic schooling, followed by 4 years of at Ole Miss hearing the Catholic church constantly attacked before I had realy started to understand the value of obedience, grace, and humility.
And for Exhibit #1B:
Just last month I went with my family to mass at the St. Louis Cathedral. Archbishop Hughes gave a homily instructing the faithful on how we should conduct ourselves in mass. (things like not chatting before or after mass in the sancuary; or not wearing cloths that may create distraction or temptation for others)
As we left my own brother wanted to know, “why he (the archbishop) should be able to tell people what they can or can’t do.”
Yeah, that’s my brother who went to Catholic elementary school, highschool, and 2 Catholic colleges asking why an Archbishop thinks he can instruct people on their conduct during a mass in the Cathedral of his diocese…
I’m sure religion teachers try, but reality is their influence can seldom hold a candle to the influence of the society people are living in.
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bobzills
Guest
What are they teaching you in those Catholic schools? I thought it was a mortal sin and that you would go to hell for impurity before marriage?
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DeniseR
Guest
My almost 21-year-old son is in college and dating an almost 22-year-old young woman since high school. She has said things like, “If we live together…” The first time she said it I playfully kicked her foot and said, “Hey! No living together before marriage!” and she knew I meant it. She has said this twice and when I call her on it she always says she means “if they get married”.
It seems everyone is cohabitating and it is becoming the norm. This girl was not brought up in any church and comes from a divorced home. My son seems to be having a positive influence on her and she is starved for love.
My son has assurred me that they will not be living together before marriage but they are thinking about marriage down the road. He wants to finish school first and experience renting an apartment and living with a bunch of guys for his last year of college.
When I told him I thought marriage would be OK when they were ready she was thrilled because I am so against them living together. She thought because I didn’t want them living together I would be opposed to them marrying – like living together is the engagement process and without living together there would be no marriage. She has a skewed view of life but I can tell she really respects our opinion on all this.
It seems everyone is cohabitating and it is becoming the norm. This girl was not brought up in any church and comes from a divorced home. My son seems to be having a positive influence on her and she is starved for love.
My son has assurred me that they will not be living together before marriage but they are thinking about marriage down the road. He wants to finish school first and experience renting an apartment and living with a bunch of guys for his last year of college.
When I told him I thought marriage would be OK when they were ready she was thrilled because I am so against them living together. She thought because I didn’t want them living together I would be opposed to them marrying – like living together is the engagement process and without living together there would be no marriage. She has a skewed view of life but I can tell she really respects our opinion on all this.
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bobzills
Guest
This is not true at all. It may be becoming the norm for you and those in your circle, but it is not for our family. BTW, do Catholic schools still teach that it is important to remain chaste before marriage, or have Catholic schools more or less abandoned this teaching since Vatican II ? Why are so many Catholic marriages ending up in “annulments” these days? Has the Church abandoned its teaching on the indissolubility of marriage?
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afitz211
Guest
The problem with Catholic schools today is that it is not conveinent for them to actually be Catholic. Speaking as a student at a Catholic University, who is Catholic only when it is conveient for them and for their pockets, these teachings often get left in the dark. Most Catholic Universities are also on the forefront of trying to secularize the Catholic church. I also feel that many Catholic universities suffer from a problem of fundamentalism. I was joking around one day with another friend of mine and called one of my professors a fundamental liberalists. (which when you examine theology professors that don’t believe in the miracles of the bible or the resurrection how else can you really explain it?) I digress but no the church has not abandoned its teaching on the indissolutbility of marriage but it does realize that many people that were married in the Catholic church were not ready to be married in the Catholic church (due to bad marriage prep and lack of courage to actually refuse a marriage.)
Chastity is another bad issue in Catholic schools because most of them you don’t actually get taught chastity, more so just don’t show any outward signs of being unchaste. (mainly pregnancy because that makes the school look bad.) There are still some good Catholic schools that promote Chastity but those are few and far between. (Stubenville of Ohio, Ave Maria, the University of Dallas and a few others.) But if you don’t go to those schools you are allowed to do whatever you want (and being an RA it sucks that you can’t even talk Chastity without someone thinking you’re insane in a residence hall.)
Catholic Schools since Vatican II have become a thorn in the Vatican’s side. Especially the ones that are more progressive. But that is an issue for another thread. What I worry about is that because the views of these schools are so skewed is that it’ll affect the young people of the faith and co-habitation will not be just accepted as it is now but people will also demand for the Catholic church to change.
I guess my main response is that the Church still teaches values and there are people on these forums that have high regard for these values. I think that we all have to examine the schools we send our students to (especially if they are Catholic ones) because there are a lot of lies that are being spread through these schools. And Cohabitation it’s not okay and speaking as a student living with people who are cohabitating it really does give a negative example to the kids. Maybe I’m just an immature 20 year old who hasn’t lived enough life, but quite frankly if life is as I see it around me I really don’t want to live this life.
Peace,
Adam
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bobzills
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My personal opinion is that Catholicism or any religion for that matter should not be a question of convenience. It is curious that Catholic theology professors don’t believe in miracles or in the Resurrection of Our Lord.
As far as annulments go, it looks like just about anyone can get an annulment these days for the most trivial of reasons, so getting back to the topic of the thread, maybe young Catholic couples think why go through the trouble of getting “married” when there is a good chance that in the end it will be declared invalid and annulled anyway.
BTW, do they teach that it is a mortal sin to cohabit, or is it considered to be OK according to present day post Vatican II Catholicism?
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afitz211
Guest
Yes I did digress a little bit but I used that to try to circle around to the main topic (which unfortunately I don’t think I did very well.) Now again my discussion of the miracles and the Resurrection of the Lord is only the most extreme of my theology department (but unfortunately that’s enough of our theology department to make your skin crawl.)
I think it’s a possibility that young Catholic couples do think about that (and the fact that it also costs a pretty penny in order to get an annulment). I would also think that secular society has more of an impact on people than the whole process of annulment (because I don’t think the process of annulment is as known as the secular influences.)
See the problem with most Catholic schools is that with these issues like co-habitation they don’t have a stance, it’s all cool (OK) like the average hippie. Post-Vatican II Catholicism by doctrine still states that co-habitation is wrong but the schools conveiently does not teach that.
I think it’s a possibility that young Catholic couples do think about that (and the fact that it also costs a pretty penny in order to get an annulment). I would also think that secular society has more of an impact on people than the whole process of annulment (because I don’t think the process of annulment is as known as the secular influences.)
See the problem with most Catholic schools is that with these issues like co-habitation they don’t have a stance, it’s all cool (OK) like the average hippie. Post-Vatican II Catholicism by doctrine still states that co-habitation is wrong but the schools conveiently does not teach that.
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bobzills
Guest
What do Catholic schools teach in this regard?
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afitz211
Guest
As I said earlier some Catholic schools actually teach the faith. But the majority of Catholic schools and the one I go to do not oppose co-habitiation.
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Cathy
Guest
One of our deacons recently said that 90% of the marriages in our parish are of people who are already living together. This is a very harmful, hurtful situation for all involved, especially the children. I know a priest who cares enough to refuse to marry those who are sleeping together. He’s very wise to do so, and I wish there were more like him, but he faces tremendous opposition. The battle for holiness is fierce, but worth the fight. Now, back to my knees!
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bobzills
Guest
I guess this means that the majority of Catholic schools have abandoned the Catholic faith and are teaching some sort of hybrid mixture of Catholicism and paganism?
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afitz211
Guest
The last line in the statement is the most important point in there we all need to pray. Prayer is absolutely essential for any change especially if we want to change it for God. You have a very admirable priest who should be commended (and it may help if you take the time to do, not that he would get discouraged but encouragement is always a good thing.) I’m sure a lot of marriages in many parishes are of people who were co-habitating it’s probably not uncommon. There are no easy answers but we must all pray for more good people to come along and pray that our individual efforts will make an impact on individuals and hopefully build from there.
Peace and prayers,
Adam
bobzills,
yes
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chewchoo
Guest
within the last few years, wasn’t a catholic college stripped of its catholicity for failure to be catholic? was it marymount in NY?
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Pug
Guest
Maybe what happens is most “Catholic” people don’t get married in the Church. Then, when they get older, they “revert”. But this leaves them with an easy defect of form annulment. I doubt they marry outside the Church so that they may obtain one. Rather, I suspect they marry outside the Church because they don’t think they are Catholic at the time.
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crmcfl
Guest
My husband and I celebrated our 29th anniversary last weekend. Cohabiting isn’t new at all. Most people we knew in college were cohabiting, they just didn’t tell their parents. Even back then we were considered weird because we didn’t, even more strange because we went through marriage prep, went on a retreat together, got married in the church and expected it to last. We’re the only ones still together today.
It is possible to have a loving, lasting marriage but you have to first believe in the possibility (as sadly many don’t) and then do the things necessary to nurture and sustain it. It’s well worth the effort.
It is possible to have a loving, lasting marriage but you have to first believe in the possibility (as sadly many don’t) and then do the things necessary to nurture and sustain it. It’s well worth the effort.
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Liberanosamalo
Guest
“Catholic Schools since Vatican II have become a thorn in the Vatican’s side. Especially the ones that are more progressive. But that is an issue for another thread. What I worry about is that because the views of these schools are so skewed is that it’ll affect the young people of the faith and co-habitation will not be just accepted as it is now but people will also demand for the Catholic church to change.”
I knew a priest who used to advise parents to send their children to public colleges so they would have to fight to defend their faith, rather than send them to “Catholic” colleges where they would have their faith taken away from them.
Sad commentary, but quite true.
I think a lot of annulments are given because couples at the moment of consent are entering a “marriage” with the idea that if it doesn’t work, they’ll just divorce. That is cause enough for the marriage to be null. You must marry with the full intent of it being permanent, exclusive, and open to children. And not all annulments are granted for flimsy reasons. Many are granted to people who married with no proper example in their own lives of a committed sacramental marriage, a society that has encouraged them toward substance abuse and sexual promiscuity, and a culture that tells them that divorce is okay and they don’t have to have children at all.
And then we wonder when their marriages quickly degenerate into battles over whether to have children, infidelity, alcoholism and drug use.
Many marriages may take place in a church with the bride dressed up, a groom and a priest and words recited. But they are no more valid than the same scene played out on a Hollywood sound stage.
And the fact so many young people cohabit is because they were raised by laissez faire parents who made up their own rules also. And the parents are married multiple times. And the kids are afraid to undergo divorce, so they think the artificiality of shacking up is going to protect them.
I knew a priest who used to advise parents to send their children to public colleges so they would have to fight to defend their faith, rather than send them to “Catholic” colleges where they would have their faith taken away from them.
Sad commentary, but quite true.
I think a lot of annulments are given because couples at the moment of consent are entering a “marriage” with the idea that if it doesn’t work, they’ll just divorce. That is cause enough for the marriage to be null. You must marry with the full intent of it being permanent, exclusive, and open to children. And not all annulments are granted for flimsy reasons. Many are granted to people who married with no proper example in their own lives of a committed sacramental marriage, a society that has encouraged them toward substance abuse and sexual promiscuity, and a culture that tells them that divorce is okay and they don’t have to have children at all.
And then we wonder when their marriages quickly degenerate into battles over whether to have children, infidelity, alcoholism and drug use.
Many marriages may take place in a church with the bride dressed up, a groom and a priest and words recited. But they are no more valid than the same scene played out on a Hollywood sound stage.
And the fact so many young people cohabit is because they were raised by laissez faire parents who made up their own rules also. And the parents are married multiple times. And the kids are afraid to undergo divorce, so they think the artificiality of shacking up is going to protect them.
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lsu
Guest
Do here in the south everyone that gets married in the catholic churc now has live together,i have 2 bestfriend that live together and was married in the church.
Not to mention that one was pregant.
Not to mention that one was pregant.
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