cohabitation, the new norm?

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Do here in the south everyone that gets married in the catholic churc now has live together,i have 2 bestfriend that live together and was married in the church.

Not to mention that one was pregant.
If that is you experience, that is very unfortunate. The presence of wide spread sinning however does not vaidate such actions.

Also, your experience likely is very prevalent in the south, but is far from universal as my 2 older siblings weddings, and several of my friends weddings (though sadly not all) would attest.
 
She was pregnant? Well, then that could be cause for an annulment later. When I was married, that was the first question the priest asked. They didn’t marry pregnant brides in that diocese.

A perfect case as to why there are so many annulments. Because too many priests marry people who may not be marrying freely and without coercion. And a shotgun wedding is coercion in some circles. Would they have married if the bride WEREN’T pregnant?
 
It’s improbable that one can be a practicing Catholic and get married. Possible, but improbable.

And the sad thing is if you are faithful to God, you will probably be rejected by your local parish. Many parishes reject people who are single.
Where in the world is this? All the parishes I’ve been to have been nice to single people, had singles groups, even. I’m from the South, you think that makes a difference? I think it’s unfair for anyone to just assume that just because somebody is single they are living a sinful life.
 
It’s improbable that one can be a practicing Catholic and get married. Possible, but improbable.

And the sad thing is if you are faithful to God, you will probably be rejected by your local parish. Many parishes reject people who are single.
I am not understanding what you are trying to say, Chris. I’m sorry!
Are you saying that it is improbable to be Catholic and get married before moving in with fiancee?
Also, what do you mean by that last bit? Are you saying that single Catholics can’t join new parishes? That doesn’t make much sense to me…:confused:

I’m so very confused! If you would please clarify your message, I would be most grateful!
 
I’d say that virtually always first sexual intercourse, or at least heavy petting which constitutes sexual activity, occurs within a few days of a couple meeting each other. Otherwise they won’t form a pair,

Mores change very quickly.
While I am not proud to admit to having intercourse with my fiancee, I will proudly say that we did not have intercourse, or “heavy petting,” within even the first few weeks of our relationship! You might not want to know this, but it was a year before we did become so intimate as to have intercourse. Perhaps it is true that we are not typical in this, but I am nonetheless appalled to read your post.
 
Hi everyone. I’m new here because I’m looking for answers for my teenage son. He believes that living with someone before marriage is ok. He says that he does not plan to have sex before marriage but living with someone is ok. He believes that he can overcome the temptation and not ever have sex with the woman he lives with. I tried to explain although temptation isn’t a sin, putting yourself in temptations way is a sin. Am I wrong here? Am I saying the wrong thing? I need some back up!

How can I explain that living together before marriage is not the way to go. The child is highly intelligent, he completed school and is now attending college. He demands facts. I personally, am not a fact person. I believe and have faith. I need something to back up my beliefs. Can anyone tell me where in the Bible or other writings where it would address this issue? He needs to see this in order to believe it is wrong.

I would appreciate any help in the matter. Thanks in advance.
~Sky
 
You are right.

If he or she wants to stay within the Catholic Church, they do not cohabitate, plain and simple. Even if they do not have sex, it is still a scandalous event.

Glad you’re concerned about this before any arrangements are made.
 
If he or she wants to stay within the Catholic Church, they do not cohabitate, plain and simple. Even if they do not have sex, it is still a scandalous event. .
Tha’s what I thought. But that’s not what I read in Catholic journals, such as US Catholic of June 2007. According to the Catholic theologians Michael J. Lawler and Gail S. Risch, premarital sex is not necessarily wrong at all. According to these theologians, before the Council of Trent, the marriage sequence was betrothal or engagement, sexual intercourse, possible children and then after that the wedding would take place. It was only after the Council of Trent that this was changed. According to these Catholic theology teachers, today’s Catholic cohabitors are not living in sin, but they are only following Church tradition as it was before the Council of Trent.
 
Tha’s what I thought. But that’s not what I read in Catholic journals, such as US Catholic of June 2007. According to the Catholic theologians Michael J. Lawler and Gail S. Risch, premarital sex is not necessarily wrong at all. According to these theologians, before the Council of Trent, the marriage sequence was betrothal or engagement, sexual intercourse, possible children and then after that the wedding would take place. It was only after the Council of Trent that this was changed. According to these Catholic theology teachers, today’s Catholic cohabitors are not living in sin, but they are only following Church tradition as it was before the Council of Trent.
Except in promoting their agenda they leave out a big part of the puzzle. Engaging in sexual intercourse after betrothal (that is a promise or oath of marriage) was seen as completing the marriage (the act of the oath itself did not make the marriage). Thus if a betrothed couple consented to have intercourse, the Church considered them to be married (and we all know what that means in the eyes of the Church). See the Summa, Question 46:

“Secondly, in reference to the judgment of the Church; and since in the external tribunal judgment is given in accordance with external evidence, and since nothing is more expressly significant of consent than carnal intercourse, it follows that in the judgment of the Church carnal intercourse following on betrothal is declared to make a marriage, unless there appear clear signs of deceit or fraud%between%

Therefore Bob, if you want to promote premarital sex as a tradition of the Church, make sure you tell them that they first have to make an oath of marriage, and that once they have had sex, they are married in the eyes of God, and what God has joined together, no man may tear asunder.
 
Except in promoting their agenda they leave out a big part of the puzzle. Engaging in sexual intercourse after betrothal (that is a promise or oath of marriage) was seen as completing the marriage (the act of the oath itself did not make the marriage). Thus if a betrothed couple consented to have intercourse, the Church considered them to be married (and we all know what that means in the eyes of the Church). See the Summa, Question 46:

“Secondly, in reference to the judgment of the Church; and since in the external tribunal judgment is given in accordance with external evidence, and since nothing is more expressly significant of consent than carnal intercourse, it follows that in the judgment of the Church carnal intercourse following on betrothal is declared to make a marriage, unless there appear clear signs of deceit or fraud”

Therefore Bob, if you want to promote premarital sex as a tradition of the Church, make sure you tell them that they first have to make an oath of marriage, and that once they have had sex, they are married in the eyes of God, and what God has joined together, no man may tear asunder.
As I read the article, I think this is actually what they are saying. If they are talking about engaged couples who are ready to make an indissoluble vow and are not yet married only because of the time and preparation necessary for the ceremony (or because of some other practical or economic factor), then I think their proposal is legitimate. However, to avoid scandal and confusion, the Church should make it clear that these couples are married in the eyes of the Church and that the “big wedding” is simply a celebration of something that has already happened.

Let me give a personal example. My wife and I got engaged in August of 2002. My wife wanted to get married at the chapel of the seminary she had attended (the place where her parents had been married, and her grandparents as well though not in the same building), but this wedding took nearly a year to arrange. We did not get married until August of 2003. For about a week before the wedding we “cohabited” in the sense that we lived in the same house (but slept in different rooms)–I also stayed in the same house when visiting her earlier that year. I can honestly say that we weren’t particularly tempted toward unchastity–the stress of getting ready for the wedding was too great!

However, had we been working under the medieval understanding of the wedding ceremony as a blessing of something that has already happened, I could have moved in months earlier and life would have been a lot simpler.

The problem with most of these “betrothal” proposals is that they explicitly allow for betrothal as a period of “probation” in which the couple work toward a deeper commitment. Perhaps that is what these authors are talking about as well. If so, then they are indeed heretical. But if they’re just talking about couples who have made the final decision and are only waiting for the public ceremony to be arranged, then they may have a point. Still, I think that it would be better to call the first, more informal ceremony “marriage” and the second one something like “a public blessing of the marriage of X and Y.” Calling it betrothal would confuse people (since people don’t understand what betrothal means) and there would be headlines saying “Catholic Church says premarital sex OK” or something like that.

Theologically, as I understand it, vow of commitment + sex=marriage, and the public ceremony is icing on the cake. On the other hand, I know that the medieval practice could be and often was abused, and certainly this definition of “betrothal” would be as well. But isn’t the current practice also abused? Don’t people think that the ceremony is what makes a marriage, so that if divorced people have a big ceremony that makes their cohabitation moral? Isn’t that a pretty big abuse as well?

Edwin
 
The problem with most of these “betrothal” proposals is that they explicitly allow for betrothal as a period of “probation” in which the couple work toward a deeper commitment. Perhaps that is what these authors are talking about as well. If so, then they are indeed heretical. But if they’re just talking about couples who have made the final decision and are only waiting for the public ceremony to be arranged, then they may have a point. Still, I think that it would be better to call the first, more informal ceremony “marriage” and the second one something like “a public blessing of the marriage of X and Y.” Calling it betrothal would confuse people (since people don’t understand what betrothal means) and there would be headlines saying “Catholic Church says premarital sex OK” or something like that.

Theologically, as I understand it, vow of commitment + sex=marriage, and the public ceremony is icing on the cake. On the other hand, I know that the medieval practice could be and often was abused, and certainly this definition of “betrothal” would be as well. But isn’t the current practice also abused? Don’t people think that the ceremony is what makes a marriage, so that if divorced people have a big ceremony that makes their cohabitation moral? Isn’t that a pretty big abuse as well?

Edwin
I tend to agree. If one argued to bring back the medieval “procedure”, there would have to be some kind of formal ceremony (as you say, call it “marriage”). The problem as you state, is that today we have no frame of reference for betrothal as a formal oath - we have “engagement” which seems to be little more than a time period to make plans for a wedding, and which can be called off as will.

It seems to me that the potential for abuse, or twisting betrothal into some pre-marital free for all is too great within the context of today’s view of marriage and engagement. To me, it smacks of an attempt to find a loop-hole in the prohibition against pre-marital sex. Best to leave things as they are, IMHO.
 
Theologically, as I understand it, vow of commitment + sex=marriage, and the public ceremony is icing on the cake. On the other hand, I know that the medieval practice could be and often was abused, and certainly this definition of “betrothal” would be as well. But isn’t the current practice also abused? Don’t people think that the ceremony is what makes a marriage, so that if divorced people have a big ceremony that makes their cohabitation moral? Isn’t that a pretty big abuse as well?

Edwin
What role does the wedding rite (the public exchange of vows), itself, play in the creation of a sacramental marriage? That is, doesn’t this “vow of commitment” have to be public in the sense that it must be witnessed by a representative of the Church (i.e. usually priest or deacon?)?
 
Well, if sex plus commitment = marriage, then there should not be a “wedding” ceremony at some later point. After all, they are married. Call it a renewal of vows. And they should send out wedding notices before moving in together to make it clear that they are married and not just shacking up.

And as a side note, U.S. Catholic is hardly a Catholic journal; it is often barely Catholic.
 
These statements about sex before marriage in the early church are some of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Chrisitan marriage is based on the Jewish model that Jesus endorsed, and even found too lax! The scriptures make it obvious that sex outside of marriage is fornication. Denying this key point of our Catholic faith in heresy, and is possibly even worse than deny the Real Presence in the Eucharist, in that at least for this latter offence there is a semi-coherent argument. All denominations of Christians believe in marriage, and even the lax ones that don’t seem to care about fornication will say that their “official” stance is that sex is for marriage.
 
What role does the wedding rite (the public exchange of vows), itself, play in the creation of a sacramental marriage? That is, doesn’t this “vow of commitment” have to be public in the sense that it must be witnessed by a representative of the Church (i.e. usually priest or deacon?)?
I believe that since the Council of Trent the Catholic Church has required such a thing, yes. In the Middle Ages no witnesses were necessary, and as I said this gave rise to a lot of abuse. In particular, young men were prone to make the vows without witnesses, have sex, and then deny having made the vows, leaving the woman “dishonored” and often pregnant. Guido Ruggiero describes one such incident (which got into the records of the Inquisition because the young woman resorted to black magic to get the guy back/punish him) in a chapter of his book *Binding Passions–*though this happened (just) after Trent.A fictional reference can be found in Undset’s Sigrid Lavransdatter.

The Protestant Reformers denounced this situation and insisted that parental permission ought to be regarded as necessary for a binding marriage. The Catholic Church resisted this as a condition of validity, though I believe there was some attempt to make sure that couples did get their parents’ permission. In England, the medieval rules continued binding until the 18th century (at least, a church ceremony was not necessary–a witness may have been), and in Scotland, only a witness (not a clergyperson) was necessary through the 19th century (hence the concern of Lydia Bennet’s family in Pride and Prejudice to determine whether she and her lover have “gone to Scotland”–which means an honorable elopement).

Edwin
 
Well, if sex plus commitment = marriage, then there should not be a “wedding” ceremony at some later point. After all, they are married. Call it a renewal of vows. And they should send out wedding notices before moving in together to make it clear that they are married and not just shacking up.
I agree. We do not need to make things fuzzier at this point, but I do think that the “big wedding” is a moral as well as a financial burden.

Edwin
 
I agree. We do not need to make things fuzzier at this point, but I do think that the “big wedding” is a moral as well as a financial burden.

Edwin
A moral burden? In what way? I’ve always understood one of the purposes of a public (not big) wedding, was to acknowlege that the union of a man and woman is not just a private matter. It involves the community of which they are a part, and a public commitment to each other in the presence of God and witnesses. That enhances permanence.
 
Therefore Bob, if you want to promote premarital sex as a tradition of the Church, make sure you tell them that they first have to make an oath of marriage, and that once they have had sex, they are married in the eyes of God, and what God has joined together, no man may tear asunder.
I am not promoting any such thing. This is what is being promoted in Catholic journals such as US Catholic.
 
These statements about sex before marriage in the early church are some of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
This is why I don’t understand why Catholic theologians are pushing for sex before marriage.
 
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