Cohabiting Cousin Invite to "House Warming"

[PietroPaolo]

I’m sorry if I am way of the mark here but does your cousin discuss what they do/do not do sexually with you? If the answer is no then I do not understand why you wouldn’t attend because you do not know of they are living in sin- they could be living as brother and sister.

Thanks for the response. You make a good point and no, they don’t discuss that with me, but even if they are living as brother and sister they still shouldn’t be living together before marriage b/c of the near occasion of sin and the sin of scandal. Besides, I feel safe assuming they are not living as brother and sister (although I hope they are). By purchasing a house and living together they basically are setting themselves up as man and wife, yet man and wife they are not - that in and of itself is immoral.

 

[thewanderer]

So the problem here is what MIGHT happen, what COULD be happening, and what OTHER people might think of this? Even if they’re not having sex, they’re sinning for what OTHERS might think of their situation?

Well… its a matter of charity towards others. Its not so much about what others think you’re doing (gossip) as it is about how that will affect their disposition towards sinning (which the Church calls scandal). So, if they have a good enough reason to be living together chastely then even though it might lead others to sin, they are allowed to live together. But, if living together is going to lead other people into mortal sin, and you don’t have a good reason to do it beyond “we want to” then you are being kind of selfish, don’t you think? “I don’t care that acting this way will probably result in other people falling into mortal sin, I’m going to do it because I want to, or because it is slightly beneficial to me etc” Does that make more sense?

Also, a near occasion of sin isn’t just something that “might” lead you to sin, it is a situation which is likely going to end in you committing a mortal sin. If you know that you tend to be very strongly tempted in a certain situation, such that you will likely give in to mortal sin, and allow yourself to get into that situation without a good reason you are not being careful about your soul. Is that clearer?

 

[thewanderer]

Hi thewanderer,

My wifes cousin did not receive a dispensation and flatly refused to do so when requested.

Regarding validity of marriages, you are in correct. See below:

The Code of Canon Law states: “Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local [bishop], pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses” (can. 1108 §1). If a Catholic wishes to validly marry any other way (e.g., in his fiancé’s Protestant Church) he must obtain a dispensation from his bishop to not have a Catholic wedding. (This is ordinarily handled through his local pastor.) If he fails to obtain a dispensation and proceed with a wedding outside the Church, his marriage will not be valid.

No, I am not incorrect. The above relates to the neccessary requirements for Catholics to marry, and, as the passage you quote notes, even Catholics can be married validly in a protestant Church if they receive the correct dispensation.

 

[Ral91]

As a non Catholic living with my Catholic fiancé I would urge you not to assume anything- we have separate bedrooms. However circumstances led us to purchase a property together before we married. I will admit they were selfish reasons- the place we bought was for sale at a bargain price so we made a decision. One that was met with resistance from a lot of family members (mostly Grandparents on both sides).

Yes it is immoral and believe me I understand that. However my fiancé and I did have a house warming. One particular member of my fiancés family refused to attend and many of mine were ‘unable’ to come- I know it is because they do not agree with what we’ve done.

However his family member was not content with just saying ‘’ I’m not able to come, sorry’’. Instead we both received a long winded lecture on sin. It did not bother me- I expected things like this as my family, although not Catholic are VERY conservative about things like this. My fiancé however was not as understanding and ended up getting into a very heated argument with this family member not because of his opinion but because of the way he went about it- essentially we were told we would burn in hell for it.

Go, don’t go - that is up to you but I would caution you on giving them a long explanation as to why you cannot go. Ultimately they are adults and if they have chosen to do this then you telling them it is a sin will probably not be received very well. I would also like to add that my fiancés grAndparents told us they would not attend because of their moral objections but that they left it at that- it was simply a ‘you’re not married yet but once you are we’ll be round to see the place’. There was no long winded response and no problem.

 

[Louie1983]

No, I am not incorrect. The above relates to the neccessary requirements for Catholics to marry, and, as the passage you quote notes, even Catholics can be married validly in a protestant Church if they receive the correct dispensation.

That’s right so if they don’t receive a dispensation the marriage is not valid.

As what happened with my wifes cousin he flatly refused to get one, therefore the marriage was not valid.

End of story.

 

[PietroPaolo]

As a non Catholic living with my Catholic fiancé I would urge you not to assume anything- we have separate bedrooms. However circumstances led us to purchase a property together before we married. I will admit they were selfish reasons- the place we bought was for sale at a bargain price so we made a decision. One that was met with resistance from a lot of family members (mostly Grandparents on both sides).

Yes it is immoral and believe me I understand that. However my fiancé and I did have a house warming. One particular member of my fiancés family refused to attend and many of mine were ‘unable’ to come- I know it is because they do not agree with what we’ve done.

However his family member was not content with just saying ‘’ I’m not able to come, sorry’’. Instead we both received a long winded lecture on sin. It did not bother me- I expected things like this as my family, although not Catholic are VERY conservative about things like this. My fiancé however was not as understanding and ended up getting into a very heated argument with this family member not because of his opinion but because of the way he went about it- essentially we were told we would burn in hell for it.

Go, don’t go - that is up to you but I would caution you on giving them a long explanation as to why you cannot go. Ultimately they are adults and if they have chosen to do this then you telling them it is a sin will probably not be received very well. I would also like to add that my fiancés grAndparents told us they would not attend because of their moral objections but that they left it at that- it was simply a ‘you’re not married yet but once you are we’ll be round to see the place’. There was no long winded response and no problem.

Thanks for the sound advice. I appreciate that you are speaking from personal experience. BTW, nice going with the separate bedrooms

 

[Ral91]

Thanks for the sound advice. I appreciate that you are speaking from personal experience. BTW, nice going with the separate bedrooms

Thank you I appreciate that. Mixed marriage is not always easy, particularly on the extended family. It’s just a shame (especially when it’s between Christians) that it can and does cause huge problems sometimes. I firmly believe his Grandparents had the right response and I love them deeply as I do my own. I may not be Catholic and we may have different views on things but the fact the responded in a respectful way meant a lot to both of us.

Thank you - we took it one step further and have actually left the ‘marital’ bedroom unoccupied. It’s currently full of wedding things!

 

[pnewton]

Are other peoples’ sins going to rub off on you if you associate with them?

Actually, it does in different ways rub off. If you are a contributor to their acceptance of some sin, then Jesus advises that even the source of stumbling has a millstone waiting. Furthermore, the fact that this sort of behavior is now acceptable is something new in this generation. The last generation living together started being more commonplace, but there was a sense in which it was still understood to be immoral. Every little act of acceptance either by such ill-advised celebrations or representation in the media, erodes the morality of society.

No, I would not attend even if it were my closest friend, but then for the sake of witness, I would not make a big deal about it. Nor would I hesitate to visit at some time that is not specific to celebrating this event. Jesus ate (socialized) with sinners and tax collectors, but he did not celebrate their sin.

 

[Kelfa28]

If she a practicing Catholic at all?
Does she consider herself Catholic?

I’m in a situation with my sister and BIL with their marriage. Their marriage is not valid. They are both baptized Catholics…who, frankly, have never practiced their faith…at all. They know nothing about the faith and really don’t care to know anything about the faith.

They aren’t planning on baptizing any of their children. My sister goes to Mass when she has to go. For my wedding, my daughter’s baptism and our grandmother’s funeral. She is polite and stands, sits and kneels when appropriate but says no prayers. Of course she won’t receive communion either.

It’s hard to call her Catholic and recognize that she is in an invalid marriage. If she came over…I would never tell her and her husband they need to sleep in separate rooms because, according to my faith (and, I suppose, technically theirs too) they are married invalidly and I’m not setting a precedent for scandal. Personally, I fail to see the scandal.

In all seriousness, why would they have a Catholic wedding if they don’t believe in the Sacraments, what the Church teaches…or that Jesus is the son of God?

I see more of an actual scandal with someone who claims to be Catholic, goes to Mass on occasion, actually receives communion but is outright flippant about what the Church teaches and chooses to not believe in it.

 

[PietroPaolo]

If she a practicing Catholic at all?
Does she consider herself Catholic?

I’m in a situation with my sister and BIL with their marriage. Their marriage is not valid. They are both baptized Catholics…who, frankly, have never practiced their faith…at all. They know nothing about the faith and really don’t care to know anything about the faith.

They aren’t planning on baptizing any of their children. My sister goes to Mass when she has to go. For my wedding, my daughter’s baptism and our grandmother’s funeral. She is polite and stands, sits and kneels when appropriate but says no prayers. Of course she won’t receive communion either.

It’s hard to call her Catholic and recognize that she is in an invalid marriage. If she came over…I would never tell her and her husband they need to sleep in separate rooms because, according to my faith (and, I suppose, technically theirs too) they are married invalidly and I’m not setting a precedent for scandal. Personally, I fail to see the scandal.

In all seriousness, why would they have a Catholic wedding if they don’t believe in the Sacraments, what the Church teaches…or that Jesus is the son of God?

I see more of an actual scandal with someone who claims to be Catholic, goes to Mass on occasion, actually receives communion but is outright flippant about what the Church teaches and chooses to not believe in it.

No, she doesn’t practice the faith, but if asked “what religion are you” I’d bet she would respond “Catholic.” I doubt she believes much of what the Church teaches.

The scandal is more the decision to live together outside of marriage, not marrying invalidly, although that too could be a scandal as it could lead to other Catholics thinking it is okay to marry outside of the Church w/out dispensation.

The invalid marriage is a bigger problem b/c an “invalid” marriage is just a fancy way of saying the couple isn’t really married even though they think and act like they are. Another example of an invalid marriage would be someone who marries, leaves his wife (no divorce) then “marries” again. The second marriage isn’t a “real” marriage (i.e. the couple isn’t married) b/c you can’t be married to two women at once. Or take the example of a “gay marriage” - the two men are not, in fact, married at all, despite what the government says, b/c two men cannot get married to each other regardless of the legal reality. So even though my cousin would think she is married, she really isn’t (objectively, not just “according to my faith”) and thus is sinning when she engages in the “marital embrace.”

 

[PatriceA]

No, she doesn’t practice the faith, but if asked “what religion are you” I’d bet she would respond “Catholic.” I doubt she believes much of what the Church teaches.

The scandal is more the decision to live together outside of marriage, not marrying invalidly, although that too could be a scandal as it could lead to other Catholics thinking it is okay to marry outside of the Church w/out dispensation.

The invalid marriage is a bigger problem b/c an “invalid” marriage is just a fancy way of saying the couple isn’t really married even though they think and act like they are. Another example of an invalid marriage would be someone who marries, leaves his wife (no divorce) then “marries” again. The second marriage isn’t a “real” marriage (i.e. the couple isn’t married) b/c you can’t be married to two women at once. Or take the example of a “gay marriage” - the two men are not, in fact, married at all, despite what the government says, b/c two men cannot get married to each other regardless of the legal reality. So even though my cousin would think she is married, she really isn’t (objectively, not just “according to my faith”) and thus is sinning when she engages in the “marital embrace.”

I don’t know if this was mentioned, I skimmed all the responses but didn’t find my line of thinking.

If you don’t go based on that they are potentially living immorally before the wedding, you’re going to be faced with the same situation or uneasiness until they have their marriage blessed by the Catholic Church. Even after their wedding, you’re still going to have the same problem since it won’t be a valid marriage and they will still be considered living immorally according to the Catholic faith. This problem is NOT going to go away even after the wedding since they are not marrying in a Catholic Church or getting a dispensation. Once you make this decision, you’re stuck with it until they validate the marriage in the Catholic Church.

It could be a very dramatic decision for you, if these are relatives that you see all the time, that will be hosting many, many family gatherings at their house, etc. But if this house warming is a one time deal and you won’t be confronted with the situation ever again, or maybe once in a lifetime, to me it would be a very simple decision, I wouldn’t go.

 

[PietroPaolo]

I don’t know if this was mentioned, I skimmed all the responses but didn’t find my line of thinking.

If you don’t go based on that they are potentially living immorally before the wedding, you’re going to be faced with the same situation or uneasiness until they have their marriage blessed by the Catholic Church. Even after their wedding, you’re still going to have the same problem since it won’t be a valid marriage and they will still be considered living immorally according to the Catholic faith. This problem is NOT going to go away even after the wedding since they are not marrying in a Catholic Church or getting a dispensation. Once you make this decision, you’re stuck with it until they validate the marriage in the Catholic Church.

It could be a very dramatic decision for you, if these are relatives that you see all the time, that will be hosting many, many family gatherings at their house, etc. But if this house warming is a one time deal and you won’t be confronted with the situation ever again, or maybe once in a lifetime, to me it would be a very simple decision, I wouldn’t go.

I definitely see where you are coming from. I wouldn’t have a problem going to their house for a Fourth of July Party or a Birthday Party or even just getting together for the heck of it, what puts this over the top for me is that it is specifically celebrating the sin of living together before they are married. I’m inclined to not attending the invalid wedding and b/c they won’t really be married I’d have to not let them sleep over at my house in the same room or something like that, but just visiting them isn’t celebrating the sin or enabling them in their sin (as giving them the same room would). Just hanging out or eating with them would be okay, everyone I hang out with is sinner after all, but specifically celebrating the sin is another matter all together.

 

[Ral91]

I definitely see where you are coming from. I wouldn’t have a problem going to their house for a Fourth of July Party or a Birthday Party or even just getting together for the heck of it, what puts this over the top for me is that it is specifically celebrating the sin of living together before they are married. I’m inclined to not attending the invalid wedding and b/c they won’t really be married I’d have to not let them sleep over at my house in the same room or something like that, but just visiting them isn’t celebrating the sin or enabling them in their sin (as giving them the same room would). Just hanging out or eating with them would be okay, everyone I hang out with is sinner after all, but specifically celebrating the sin is another matter all together.

If you do not attend their wedding because it is invalid then that’s your choice. However if you tell them their wedding is invalid do you know how they will react to that? My fiancé and I got all the dispensations necessary to marry BUT if we hadn’t and we married anyway, I can tell you that neither of us would ever want that person in our home. They simply would not be welcome if they essentially wrote in the RSVP “sorry but I don’t think you’re actually married so I’m not coming”. Would it not be better to attend but not participate in the wedding party? grow closer to your cousin and let them see how good your Catholic family is? Then they may decide to have their marriage convalidated. Instead of isolating them should you not try to include them so as to bring them back to the faith?

 

[PietroPaolo]

If you do not attend their wedding because it is invalid then that’s your choice. However if you tell them their wedding is invalid do you know how they will react to that? My fiancé and I got all the dispensations necessary to marry BUT if we hadn’t and we married anyway, I can tell you that neither of us would ever want that person in our home. They simply would not be welcome if they essentially wrote in the RSVP “sorry but I don’t think you’re actually married so I’m not coming”. Would it not be better to attend but not participate in the wedding party? grow closer to your cousin and let them see how good your Catholic family is? Then they may decide to have their marriage convalidated. Instead of isolating them should you not try to include them so as to bring them back to the faith?

I’m not sure there isn’t a third way between writing “your not really getting married” on the invitation and playing along like they are really getting married. Neither of those options are good, both lacking charity. I lean toward not attending (thus avoiding acting like what they are doing is a-okay) but not insulting them either (thus avoiding being a jerk). Would you object to a Jewish man not attending a pig roast? Or a Muslim friend declining an invitation to go to the bar for a few drinks? Why would you then expect a Catholic to attend an invalid wedding?

 

[BioNerd]

Well… its a matter of charity towards others. Its not so much about what others think you’re doing (gossip) as it is about how that will affect their disposition towards sinning (which the Church calls scandal). So, if they have a good enough reason to be living together chastely then even though it might lead others to sin, they are allowed to live together. But, if living together is going to lead other people into mortal sin, and you don’t have a good reason to do it beyond “we want to” then you are being kind of selfish, don’t you think? “I don’t care that acting this way will probably result in other people falling into mortal sin, I’m going to do it because I want to, or because it is slightly beneficial to me etc” Does that make more sense?

Also, a near occasion of sin isn’t just something that “might” lead you to sin, it is a situation which is likely going to end in you committing a mortal sin. If you know that you tend to be very strongly tempted in a certain situation, such that you will likely give in to mortal sin, and allow yourself to get into that situation without a good reason you are not being careful about your soul. Is that clearer?

Wow this just keeps getting better and better… Ok so basically they’re being held accountable of the sins someone else hasn’t even committed yet. Again, who are they being selfish to? Another couple that is considering living together? As if they don’t have their own free will and a mind that can help them make their own judgments?

And “might” and “likely” still mean the same thing. It means something HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. So now we’re sinning even if we haven’t done anything? And how is everyone so sure that they’re GOING to sin. I think that’s making a judgment that you have no proof of whatsoever (provided the couple hasn’t said they HAVE done something). I think the “scandal” is just a bunch of people making judgments by gossiping about stuff they have no certainty about.

 

[Viki63]

I would send a note (not an email) to the cousin, saying that you love him (or her) very much, but won’t attend because it’s not appropriate to celebrate living together until after they are married.
Short and sweet and honest.
I said as much to a dear friend who was living with a boyfriend, and later when she invited me to their wedding, she apologized for having done what she knew was wrong. People do change based on what their friends think. People’s behavior is not set in stone. Maybe they will postpone their housewarming until after the wedding.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Wow this just keeps getting better and better… Ok so basically they’re being held accountable of the sins someone else hasn’t even committed yet. Again, who are they being selfish to? Another couple that is considering living together? As if they don’t have their own free will and a mind that can help them make their own judgments?

And “might” and “likely” still mean the same thing. It means something HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. So now we’re sinning even if we haven’t done anything? And how is everyone so sure that they’re GOING to sin. I think that’s making a judgment that you have no proof of whatsoever (provided the couple hasn’t said they HAVE done something). I think the “scandal” is just a bunch of people making judgments by gossiping about stuff they have no certainty about.

We’re all in this together. It’s not just me and God and you and God. We are our brother’s keepers and inspiring someone to sin is itself a sin.

Look at it another way. Is driving drunk immoral? What if you happen to make it home without killing someone? Why?

Doing something that is likely to kill the life of someone’s body (bios) is wrong, even if you don’t happen to kill someone. In the same way, doing something that is likely to kill the life of someone’s soul (zoe) is wrong, even if someone doesn’t follow your example.

Looking only at the outcome of an action to determine it’s morality is an error known as consequentialism.

 

[PietroPaolo]

I would send a note (not an email) to the cousin, saying that you love him (or her) very much, but won’t attend because it’s not appropriate to celebrate living together until after they are married.
Short and sweet and honest.
I said as much to a dear friend who was living with a boyfriend, and later when she invited me to their wedding, she apologized for having done what she knew was wrong. People do change based on what their friends think. People’s behavior is not set in stone. Maybe they will postpone their housewarming until after the wedding.

Thanks for the reply and for the example of someone being positively effected by your standing up for what’s right.

 

[Ral91]

I’m not sure there isn’t a third way between writing “your not really getting married” on the invitation and playing along like they are really getting married. Neither of those options are good, both lacking charity.** I lean toward not attending (thus avoiding acting like what they are doing is a-okay)** but not insulting them either (thus avoiding being a jerk). Would you object to a Jewish man not attending a pig roast? Or a Muslim friend declining an invitation to go to the bar for a few drinks? Why would you then expect a Catholic to attend an invalid wedding?

Obviously I would not object to a Jewish man declining an invite to a pig roast or an Islamic person declining to drink alcohol. What I don’t understand is why, once they are married (which as you say would be invalid according to The Catholic Church) you could/would attend a party at their house for a birthday/BBQ? I just don’t understand why you would object to attending a housewarming and wedding but not a Birthday party? From what I’ve understood by reading over this thread, it seems like in your opinion they will always be living in sin so to speak so by attending a function at their home isn’t that accepting that sin?

 

[pnewton]

I just don’t understand why you would object to attending a housewarming and wedding but not a Birthday party? From what I’ve understood by reading over this thread, it seems like in your opinion they will always be living in sin so to speak so by attending a function at their home isn’t that accepting that sin?

I gave a similar answer. I too would decline the house-warming, yet would latter be willing to visit. A house-warming is integral to living together (without marriage, in this case). Likewise, there are many weddings I would not attend. Yet when the visit is not a celebration of something I do not agree with, I do not believe in shunning. If I am to be looked down on eating with sinners and tax collectors, that is okay. No servant is better than their master.

It is a tough thing to know what to do in these situations. When do we avoid scandal? When do we reach out? I am thinking of a book my wife has called “Imitation of Mary.” It speaks of developing oneself to having the mind of humility and love. One of the concepts it refers to is holy silence. No answer is often the best answer. In the case of an RSVP, a simple answer devoid of both accusation and excuse.