Cold feet in match between Rome and Lefebvrists [John Allen]

[Catholic_Press]

Article Details By NCR Staff

                                http://ncronline.org/files/FELLAY-SSPX.jpg?1337007930        
    

                                Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior of the Society of St. Pius X, is pictured near a photo of Pope Benedict XVI at the society's headquarters in Menzingen, Switzerland, May 11. (CNS/Paul Haring)

ROME – Cold feet, of course, are fairly common before any wedding. It’s thus probably no surprise that as Rome and the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X, popularly known as the “Lefebvrists,” prepare to walk down the aisle, important voices on both sides of the match are having some second thoughts.

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[plefe]

I am not as eloquent or educated as many of you on this site but feel very close to the situation here. I was born in 61’ into a traditional Latin Mass Catholic Family from Vermont. We moved to Kansas City in 1963/64. As time would have it, it was my turn to enter Catholic School where we attended Mass every morning before class. I saw my first lay-person teacher in 1968 and as young as I was, felt some sort of change coming on. I don’t remember Nuns burning their habits till much later in the late 70’s I think. I didn’t know what it was, or understand being so young, but saw a change in the Mass and changes taking place in the Church itself. I remember being one of 20 or so Alter Boys (no girls, nor was it expected) who graduated from those classes in 1969. In 1970 we moved from that Parish to another area, more rural in nature, but frankly, more liberal as well. We now witnessed a full blown change to the Mass, music, etc. with guitars and tamberines. Where are the Nuns? I couldn’t recognize them and had to be corrected several times. No more Catholic School could be afforded and St. Pius X was for rich kids. I didn’t know it cost money to go to Catholic School, but neither did my parents, so to public school we went. What a shock, my sister and I were two years ahead of everyone else. But the school did not want to make kids feel bad so kept us from moving forward. While in High School several of the Catholic Boys wanted to check out Seminary and wonder if we were being called. Wow, was this a Catholic Seminary. What happened to the Latin? But I shouldn’t have wondered, it was no longer being used at our new Parish. But I say all this not because of all whatI have seen happen here in the US, but I know what the SSPX is up against and I side with them. I am a traditional Catholic without a Church to attend in a liberal US Diocese. And I live where our Diocese is located. The Bishop and Priests could care less about what’s happen. They are more like Protestants in my book. I don’t even wish to take part in the Holy Sacrements or go to confession. Its 140 miles to a Latin Mass in one direction and 6 hours in the other ie. east/west. Please pray for me. I anm a soldier for the righteous and our traditional faith pre-VII.

In Jesus, Mary, and Joseph

Peter Lefebvre
Gallup, NM

 

[TrueLight]

I didn’t know the CAF news bot posted in the trad forum?

 

[choliks]

I didn’t know the CAF news bot posted in the trad forum?

Me thinks it’s also programmed to deliver news directly to the appropriate forum if the content is highly relevant to the group.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I will pray for you, that is a very painful history. I also remind you, that the diocesean priests and bishops, whatever their liturgical gifts, are validly ordained to hear your confession and confect the Eucharist. I pray that you are not neglecting the sacraments that will bring you grace.

 

[Michael_C]

traditionalist Society of St. Pius X, popularly known as the “Lefebvrists,”

I have never heard a member of the Society of St. Pius X refer to themselves as Lefebvrists. As far as I know it’s a derogatory term. I may wrong.

 

[ringil]

I anm a soldier for the righteous and our traditional faith pre-VII.

In Jesus, Mary, and Joseph

Peter Lefebvre
Gallup, NM

You are a soldier ignoring your Sunday Obligation and need for Confession? Your liturgical preference is not license to ignore Church teaching. This is a dangerous mindset you are expressing.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

I anm a soldier for the righteous and our traditional faith pre-VII.

I am curious if you have read the Vatican II documents. I have, and I can tell you that the changes you and everyone else has witnessed are not found in there. As far as the Mass goes, Vatican II allowed for the use of the vernacular (it did not call for a different Mass altogether) and for more Scripture (hence the second reading in the Novus Ordo). It also specifically said that Latin and Gregorian chant was to have “pride of place” in the liturgy.

Vatican II itself is not to blame for what you witnessed. This “spirit of Vatican II” that people refer to is–people for some reason interpreted Vatican II (likely without reading it, either) to mean that they could change anything they liked and unfortunately, the Church’s bishops allowed that to happen.

I would prefer to attend Mass each Sunday at a church in Portland that I love, but the drive is just a little too far and Mass is right during my son’s nap time. So, I go to our local parish, where we have bad music and an ugly church, but I know that the Sacraments are valid and the priest is a good man. I encourage you to pray on the fact that even though you disagree with what happened to the Mass, the priests are all still validly ordained, give valid Sacraments, and are still good servants of the Church.

 

[plefe]

You are all correct. I have read some of the documents from VII and have also realized the error in interpretation. But I also believe there was intent to deceive.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

You are all correct. I have read some of the documents from VII and have also realized the error in interpretation. But I also believe there was intent to deceive.

If you have read the documents and agree that the error was in the interpretation, then what is the basis for the belief that we were intentionally deceived? Do you really believe God would allow the successor of St. Peter to intentionally deceive us about something as profound to the faith as the holy Mass?

 

[Tigg]

I am not as eloquent or educated as many of you on this site but feel very close to the situation here. I was born in 61’ into a traditional Latin Mass Catholic Family from Vermont. We moved to Kansas City in 1963/64. As time would have it, it was my turn to enter Catholic School where we attended Mass every morning before class. I saw my first lay-person teacher in 1968 and as young as I was, felt some sort of change coming on. I don’t remember Nuns burning their habits till much later in the late 70’s I think. I didn’t know what it was, or understand being so young, but saw a change in the Mass and changes taking place in the Church itself. I remember being one of 20 or so Alter Boys (no girls, nor was it expected) who graduated from those classes in 1969. In 1970 we moved from that Parish to another area, more rural in nature, but frankly, more liberal as well. We now witnessed a full blown change to the Mass, music, etc. with guitars and tamberines. Where are the Nuns? I couldn’t recognize them and had to be corrected several times. No more Catholic School could be afforded and St. Pius X was for rich kids. I didn’t know it cost money to go to Catholic School, but neither did my parents, so to public school we went. What a shock, my sister and I were two years ahead of everyone else. But the school did not want to make kids feel bad so kept us from moving forward. While in High School several of the Catholic Boys wanted to check out Seminary and wonder if we were being called. Wow, was this a Catholic Seminary. What happened to the Latin? But I shouldn’t have wondered, it was no longer being used at our new Parish. But I say all this not because of all whatI have seen happen here in the US, but I know what the SSPX is up against and I side with them. I am a traditional Catholic without a Church to attend in a liberal US Diocese. And I live where our Diocese is located. The Bishop and Priests could care less about what’s happen. They are more like Protestants in my book. I don’t even wish to take part in the Holy Sacrements or go to confession. Its 140 miles to a Latin Mass in one direction and 6 hours in the other ie. east/west. Please pray for me. I anm a soldier for the righteous and our traditional faith pre-VII.

In Jesus, Mary, and Joseph

Peter Lefebvre
Gallup, NM

My heart goes out to your plight, and I would urge you to pray to Our Lady, Who is the Defender against all Heresies. I have read some of the traditionalist material and even sympathize with much of what they protest. Some of it is quite valid, but I pray you do not abandon Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament. A book that helped me through some of what you descibe in your post is one written by Michael Davies, “I Am With You Always,” which explains the Divine Constitution and the indefectibility of the Church. You will be comforted by this book (altho parts of it were a bit too technical for me.)

Here are excerpts:

The Duty of a Catholic

The doctrine of indefectibility does not protect us from harm done by weakness, poor judgment, or lack of liturgical sensibility on the part of a pope. In the present crisis we can see that the Holy Ghost has done sufficient to prevent the Church from failing in her divine constitution, and no more. This should both comfort and strengthen the faith of traditional Catholics, and inspire them to play their full part as members of the Mystical Body to restore that Body to sound health again…

The faithful are not obliged to regard all ordinances as good and desirable. They can regret them and pray that they be taken back; indeed, they can work, will all due respect for the Pope, for their elimination…

However lamentable the state of the Church at present, however terrible the trials and tribulations we may have to face - Our Lady of Fatima warned us of them - we must under all circumstances remain in the barque of Peter which is the one Ark of Salvation…

And from Pope Leo XIII, Satis cognitum:

The Church of Christ, therefore, is one and the same forever; those who leave it depart from the will and command of Christ the Lord. Leaving the path of salvation, they enter on the path of perdition.

The Catholic Church needs faithful and loving members and Our Mother needs warriors in her army. You would be a valiant one!

 

[plefe]

If you have read the documents and agree that the error was in the interpretation, then what is the basis for the belief that we were intentionally deceived? Do you really believe God would allow the successor of St. Peter to intentionally deceive us about something as profound to the faith as the holy Mass?

I don’t believe God would allow such a thing and I don’t believe the Pope tried to deceive us, it was the council in its interpretation. The devil was in their interpretation.

 

[Elizium23]

Is it really a surprise that the Fishwrap puts a negative spin on such hopeful negotiations? My faith in reconciliation is extremely strengthened by their very doubt.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I don’t believe God would allow such a thing and I don’t believe the Pope tried to deceive us, it was the council in its interpretation. The devil was in their interpretation.

I find it to be even less credible that God would allow not only the successor of Peter but the successors of all the Apostles to err so gravely that it would put 1 billion souls and counting in jeopardy. Remember, the people who ran the council are the people who have potential to be the next Pope. I don’t think any of the Popes were ever in on whatever conspiracy you think was taking place, and I really don’t think the Second Vatican Council was, either.

Perhaps we were stewing in the Tridentine Mass for too long…

In comparison to the Mass of St. John Chrysostom or the Mass of St. James, the Tridentine Mass looks radically different and is much younger. Does that mean it is inferior to either of them? Hecks no, because all of the Liturgies contain everything that is necessary for a valid Liturgy: the consecration and veneration of the Host and the distribution thereof to the masses. It may not be in Latin, but then again, neither are any of the Divine Liturgies (usually).

A lot of liturgical abuses do take place, though. And a lot of things that are fairly ordinary in the US actually require dispensations - such as the receiving of the Lord by hand rather than on the tongue, or the priest facing ad populum rather than ad orientem.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I would prefer to attend Mass each Sunday at a church in Portland that I love, but the drive is just a little too far and Mass is right during my son’s nap time. So, I go to our local parish, where we have bad music and an ugly church, but I know that the Sacraments are valid and the priest is a good man.

Same thing here. I attend my parish’s Masses out of loyalty, but the music is dreadful, and the Hispanic priest a nice guy though his English leave a lot to be desired. Hard to understand his sermons. My son gets around that by attending another parish.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

You are all correct. I have read some of the documents from VII and have also realized the error in interpretation. But I also believe there was intent to deceive.

By whom? The Pope?

 

[TarkanAttila]

Same thing here. I attend my parish’s Masses out of loyalty, but the music is dreadful, and the Hispanic priest a nice guy though his English leave a lot to be desired. Hard to understand his sermons. My son gets around that by attending another parish.

At the risk of making this thread into a “complaining about our parishes” thread, I’ll chime in that I would prefer to go to the only Catholic Divine Liturgy in town. But since it’s a long bus ride away and usually not accessible on Sundays, I settle for going to my local parish. All things considered, it’s still worth going to receive the Blessed Sacrament daily, even if the service is a bit plainer.

 

[rlg94086]

I would prefer to attend Mass each Sunday at a church in Portland that I love, but the drive is just a little too far and Mass is right during my son’s nap time. So, I go to our local parish, where we have bad music and an ugly church, but I know that the Sacraments are valid and the priest is a good man. I encourage you to pray on the fact that even though you disagree with what happened to the Mass, the priests are all still validly ordained, give valid Sacraments, and are still good servants of the Church.

Just curious…which parish is that? Holy Rosary?