Collection/tithe envelopes--needed to make Sacraments?

[whatevergirl]

Hi everyone:wave:

Went to mass this evening…and it was great. We really like our new parish …We have our envelopes–so we’re officially members of this parish, now. :extrahappy:

Anywho–I was reading the bulletin a little bit ago, and read a paragraph that states…“please use your envelopes. we need to know who is attending mass, and make sure that if one wants to be married or receive another Sacrament in the Church, that his/her attendance within the parish is being accounted for.” It was chartiably written…but, when I read it to my husband, he didn’t like it. He said…‘the Church wants to tell people to use envelopes, or they can’t receive Sacraments?’

I explained to him that they need to see that one is a practicing Catholic. He still wasn’t accepting of it.

Any thoughts on this? Do you feel it’s right/wrong for my parish to request this? Interested in what you think.

 

[childofmary1143]

Hi everyone:wave:

Went to mass this evening…and it was great. We really like our new parish …We have our envelopes–so we’re officially members of this parish, now. :extrahappy:

Anywho–I was reading the bulletin a little bit ago, and read a paragraph that states…“please use your envelopes. we need to know who is attending mass, and make sure that if one wants to be married or receive another Sacrament in the Church, that his/her attendance within the parish is being accounted for.” It was chartiably written…but, when I read it to my husband, he didn’t like it. He said…‘the Church wants to tell people to use envelopes, or they can’t receive Sacraments?’

I explained to him that they need to see that one is a practicing Catholic. He still wasn’t accepting of it.

Any thoughts on this? Do you feel it’s right/wrong for my parish to request this? Interested in what you think.

I think its good that the Parish is serious as to who the practicing Catholics are. However I just question whether how successful it will be as some people may not want to use the envelopes and shouldn’t be COMPELLED to do so.

 

[whatevergirl]

I think its good that the Parish is serious as to who the practicing Catholics are. However I just question whether how successful it will be as some people may not want to use the envelopes and shouldn’t be COMPELLED to do so.

exactly…I’m not sure why someone would not want to use them? We have used them, and I just like having them. But, I agree…that there might be people for whatever reason, do not want to use them. Part of the reasons for envelopes too, is to see how many parishioners there are at different masses. Granted, a priest can look out into the pews and see if mass if half empty or full, but I think there is a certain number per capita that each parish has to have to 1)have a certain number of masses available if there are a lot of parishioners and 2) if there are not enough, see if that parish needs to be closed.

Thanks for your reply, matthew.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hi everyone:wave:

Went to mass this evening…and it was great. We really like our new parish …We have our envelopes–so we’re officially members of this parish, now. :extrahappy:

Anywho–I was reading the bulletin a little bit ago, and read a paragraph that states…“please use your envelopes. we need to know who is attending mass, and make sure that if one wants to be married or receive another Sacrament in the Church, that his/her attendance within the parish is being accounted for.” It was chartiably written…but, when I read it to my husband, he didn’t like it. He said…‘the Church wants to tell people to use envelopes, or they can’t receive Sacraments?’

I explained to him that they need to see that one is a practicing Catholic. He still wasn’t accepting of it.

Any thoughts on this? Do you feel it’s right/wrong for my parish to request this? Interested in what you think.

It seem like collecting tickets at the door. Just put the empty envelope in the collection every Sunday if you do not wish anyone to know what you contribute. They are not asking you to put money in it!

 

[puzzleannie]

it is not necessarily required that one use the envelopes, but it is necessary that those requesting sacraments be members of the parish. If they reside outside the parish boundaries they must obtain the permission of the pastor of their residential parish to baptise a child, marry etc. Furthermore, in order to baptize a child they must give evidence that they intend to raise the child Catholic, and unless the pastor knows them, one of the ways to know they are attending Mass is use of envelopes. However the sacrament cannot be contingent on registering for the parish or on financial support for the parish. Depending on the set-up of the parish school, admission, amount of tuition or assistance, may be contingent on parish participation and support. Envelopes are one of the few systematic ways to measure these things.

 

[acadian]

I like Bro. Rich’s idea.

I have a friend who refused to use envelopes. She didn’t want to be “just a number”. I use them - I don’t mind being a number.

The pastor at a nearby parish would pull up one’s financial information on the computer when asked to baptize a baby or marry a couple or sign a paper verifying church attendance. He’d go so far as to ask why contributions dropped one month or another. That never sat well with me. I’d be willing to bet that our pastor probably didn’t have much clue as to who was contributing what. He always sits with his head bowed during the offertory.

 

[YADA]

It always amazes me, this talk about the enveoples.

Did your priest truly look up your contributions when you ask for your child to be baptized?

Do not consider use of the envelopes as a “ticket”, that is very cynical.

Canon law requires every parish to have some financial council [sometimes called by various neames…administrative council for eample]. This council is responsible for assisting the parish priest in administering the parish budget. It provides accountablity and insures compliance with church law, best accounting practices and prevents fraud. One facor in preventing fraud is to know who gives what amount Also recent changes to the IRS tax codes requires Charititable organizations to track and report constributions differently. [Also, the person claiming deductions can no longer just track cash contributons upto a certain level and claim them as they have in the past-FYI]

As Christians we are called to do certain things-attend mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. To receive the Sacraments, we must be properly catechized, properly disposed, seeking the Sacrament and freely assent to its recpetion.

Without the parish, we have no place to go to recieve the sacraments, the religious education, the priest. Jesus called us by name to foolow him, He did not call anonymous pew sitters. We are not a faith of its “just me and Jesus. Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior” While Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior, He came to save the world, not just me. Jesus founded a church, a community of believers to love and serve others.

I am reminded of a couple of bible passages: Matthew Chapeter 25

It will be as when a man who was going on a journey 7 called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
to one he gave five talents; to another, two; to a third, one–to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five. Likewise, the one who received two made another two. But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money. After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them. The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ (Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter; so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’ His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter? Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return? Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten. For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,…

 

[YADA]

And the second passage from Acts:

A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. He retained for himself, with his wife’s knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.
The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her, “Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?” She answered, “Yes, for that amount.” Then Peter said to her, “Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.

To whom much is given, much is expected: We are a ransomed people. Jesus calls us to live our faith and give an accounting…

How can a parish provide for its parishioners if they do not know who the parishioners are? How can a parish provide for the needs of the people without funding for those needs? How can a parish budget if it does not know what to expect in terms of contributions?

Off my soap box now!

 

[airforcemom]

For large parishes it is not too important if a few families refuse to use envelopes but for small parishes it is very important so they can show that they are serving a number of families to stay open. Catholic 2000 put limits and a lot of small churches were closed because they did not have enough registered/envelope using families. My LA church was real small and we only remained opened because it is a hostoric church and we were in the country so it would miles to travel to the next church whereas in New Orleans you may only have to go a few blocks to get to another church. Having been on the pastoral coucil, finance committee and cemetery board it can be very important to know how many members belong and participate in the church - it can be very difficult to create a budget and maintain it if you have no idea whatsoever of the income you may receive. We never asked anyone to contributed any specific amount but most people give the same each week. The only time we looked at anyone’s contributions were for vouchures for school. We figured if a family came for $250 then we expected them to give $500 a year - before we started looking at that we were giving out families would show up 2 or 3 times a year and give $3 a year and they wanted the $250, and when the church goes from Sunday to Sunday in its operating expenses that can put one in the red quick. No one was every refused to baptize their baby or get married in the church because they did not use envelopes or give a specific amount. I had my youngest grandson scheduled for baptism the day before Katrina, so needless to say it did not happen. He is now rescheduled in AR for 7/8. I called to arrange it in what would be my son’s parish but the priest said no not until my son applied for an annulment so I had to call the church in the city where I’m living and they said yes - son just got back from Iraq and we will go to the church next week to make sure everything is still okay. My LA pastor was kind enough to send a letter so no one has to go through the classes again. Every church basically has different rules - it all depends on the pastor and some rules are set by the bishop or archbishop. I can’t wait for my grandson’s baptism but I’m sorry it won’t be in the same church his father was baptized - it will be reopened - we are in the process of trying raise money to repair it but it will take time and with my son going to Iraq every 3-6 six months I don’t think we can put this off any longer. So if a priest refuses to baptize a baby please look for another who will.

 

[quiet52]

A practical consideration re: using the Sunday envelopes: Every January I receive a statement from my parish acknowledging the total amount of my weekly and special contributions, for tax reporting purposes.

Also, a pastor cannot personally know everyone in his parish. When someone wants to be a sponsor, or to be married in the parish (parishioners usually have a lower use fee for the hall) – a record of regular contributions shows the pastor that the person regularly attends mass. Pastors aren’t to judge individuals based on the amounts of their contributions.

 

[Brendan]

It seem like collecting tickets at the door. Just put the empty envelope in the collection every Sunday if you do not wish anyone to know what you contribute. They are not asking you to put money in it!

Exactly!!!

They want to know if you are attending Mass faithfully, NOT if you are giving money.

 

[sarahraegraham]

When my husband and I attended a Presbyterian church a few years ago (before we reverted to Catholicism, obviously), they had attendance cards that members/visitors were asked to complete… name, address, phone #. That way they could account for everyone, but you don’t fee obligated to give if do not want to or cannot for whatever reason. I think this would be a good compromise and do not see why it is not already being done.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Exactly!!!

They want to know if you are attending Mass faithfully, NOT if you are giving money.

Not that they may not enjoy (or even need for parish upkeep) the money.

 

[Brenda_V]

whatevergirl;2415739 Granted:

As far as a Priest looking out into the pews to see if Mass is empty or not that doesn’t help with knowing if you are a regular attendee. At my Parish we are blessed with one full time Priest and two Priests who have responsibilities in other parts of the Diocese, I would venture to guess as well that you can not see who is sitting all the way in the back of the church from the altar either. This then means that the Priest won’t know everyone so he can’t tell if you are a regular attendee. So for a Priest to know if a family regularly attend the easiest way is for one to use the envelopes, whether you put money in them or not.

When my husband and I attended a Presbyterian church a few years ago (before we reverted to Catholicism, obviously), they had attendance cards that members/visitors were asked to complete… name, address, phone #. That way they could account for everyone, but you don’t fee obligated to give if do not want to or cannot for whatever reason. I think this would be a good compromise and do not see why it is not already being done.

It is actually already being done with envelopes! They are pre-printed for you and everything. As an aside, when I have attended a non-Catholic church (my husband is Lutheran and when we were first married and moved he was “looking for a church home”) the cards were for guests to fill out so they could evangelize you. We had this happen at least once, had a group of Baptist men come to my apartment door, bibles in hand and when I told them I was Catholic and had a church to go to they more or less told me I was going to Hell and that I needed to listen to them. I am not saying this is what was happening at your former church but I will bet it was and you just didn’t know it because you were a member so they didn’t need to evangelize you

Brenda V.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My son and his new wife,(one year into their marriage) registered with their new parish, but asked not to receive envelopes. He was totally upset when he filed his taxes and discovered that he could not deduct is weekly church contributions, because he could not get a receipt from the parish(envelopes are needed) and he gave cash. He now receives envelopes.

Now there are other reasons for using envelopes other than tax deductions, but its kind of silly not to.

Jim

 

[whatevergirl]

wow-wee----what excellent posts! You are all very insightful. I personally don’t mind handing in envelopes…I think the accounting for who is a practicing Catholic is important…but if you are not comfortable sharing the $ amount that you give, (no one should be embarrassed by that though?) then, just put in an empty envelope.

 

[YADA]

That fact is many perople would be embarrased by the amount they contribut. They actually do not want the church to know how little they contribute to the care and upkeep of *their *parish.

I have noted in earlier posts [on related threads] my parish [which is an up scale parish that is generally considered ‘generous’ and gives more than the archdiocesan average] gives relatively little according to its means each Sunday…

In our archdiocese, the last figures I saw reflect an average of $6.00 per family per week.

In my parish [whch has over 2000 families] our last financial report indicated that:

35% of registered families either did not give at all or did so without using envelopes or checks.

5% gave lless than $1.00 per week
25% less than $5.00 per week.

9% gave over $30.00 per week.

Given that 1% of our state’s minimum wage equals $3.00 per week [Oregon minimum wage is $7.50 per hour] and I live in an affluent community…

Catholics rank last in support of their church and its mission, giving less than other Christian denominations to the support of their church and charitable causes…I can only guess that catholics prefer Bingo and Bake Sales to Sunday Collections…as the Bingo and Bake Sales do not really cover costs…we will continue to see school and church closings.

 

[Karl_M]

It sounds to me like the church basically wants to make sure people aren’t just registering as members only to be able to use that building for their wedding or something. It also gives them a really good idea of how many people are really attending every week. Also, if someone suddenly disappears, the sudden missing envelopes may be the clue that something is wrong.

 

[VAC]

In my church, they give the CCD kids a different set of envelopes to be dropped into the offering (preferably not during the mass held during CCD time, which has happened) The kids can put in money if they want, or draw a picture, write a message, etc.

I don’t really like using the envelopes, but remember a while back there were some stories on the news of some embezzeling happening of some church’s collections… It’s nice to know there’s a way of making sure you’re contribution get’s into the right hands.

 

[YADA]

VAC,

exacltly, as I posted earlier

Canon law requires every parish to have some financial council [sometimes called by various neames…administrative council for eample]. This council is responsible for assisting the parish priest in administering the parish budget. It provides accountablity and insures compliance with church law, best accounting practices and prevents fraud. One facor in preventing fraud is to know who gives what amount

but we are christians, to whom much has been given. Think about that…“to whom much has been given”…

We have been given ***eternal life…***bought by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross!

If the Jewish people were called to give 10%, and some new testiment believers were struck dead for only contributing a ‘portion’ [see above quote from Acts] of their possessions; why do we feel justified in not supoorting our parishes? This; while expecting our children [and grandchildren] to be baptized and/or married in the church?

If we do not attend mass each week and support our parishes; why do we think they will be available for Christmas and Easter. You know those days of the year we expect the “Church” to be open?