College: Worth the cost?

[Havard]

Notre Dame, or ‘Notre Shame’ as some CAF posters like to call it, made me a better Catholic. There is no doubt in my mind or my soul that I made the right decision, in choosing to go there.

 

[whatevergirl]

Notre Dame, or ‘Notre Shame’ as some CAF posters like to call it, made me a better Catholic. There is no doubt in my mind or my soul that I made the right decision, in choosing to go there.

*Have you seen a noteable difference now, from when you went, Havard? *

 

[eucharisteo]

Yes, it’s worth it.

Just don’t do what I did by majoring in something totally worthless like English or Philosophy.

I respect alot of the professors who I don’t agree with religiously or politically. I’m secure in my views, they have theirs.

The debates and talking about all issues under the sun are a dream.I met friends who I’d lay down in traffic for, still talk to, hang out with-everything.

I hated high school-the worst 4 years of my life, by far. College rocked.

If your insecure with your faith, overly sensitive, or just someone who doesn’t like to work, don’t do it.

The biggest lie of the last 30 years was that college is for everyone. It’s not. You need the make yourself.

My English Teacher wife would disagree with you. She has a degree in Criminal Justice, which for the school she teaches in may be a good thing, but she would rather have majored in English hind sight 20/20.

The degree you seek should help you no matter what avenue you take. There are many employers today that will pay for at least some of the cost. I used the military as my way of obtaining a degree. My brother calls me a professional student even though he’s worked maybe a tenth of what I’ve done so far. I’m planning on returning to school now after resigning from a job that did not require a degree but someone withe at least the smarts and some college. Engineering Technicians get paid quite well, but for me my degree is in Geography, seemingly useless until you find out it’s actually Geographic Informations Systems combined with a minor in math and engineering and science at the core. I’ve been a Planner, GIS Coordinator and Engineering Technician. None of them actually require a degree but had I not possessed the degree I would never had the opportunity to even get one of the jobs.

 

[Havard]

*Have you seen a noteable difference now, from when you went, Havard? *

From what I gather, Notre Dame appears to be getting more orthodox, at least in the theology department. The administration doesn’t appear to be much different, though. But there aren’t any young administrators, so I wouldn’t expect that to change yet.

 

[ryecroft]

I know that this is a Catholic forum and I am a Catholic, but I will point out something that seems obvious to me. I personally did not go to college in order to get “grounded” in the faith or anything like that. I went in order to learn about the larger world - specifically international affairs (no sex jokes please) and multiple linguistic languages - this provided for me to have a great job - but didn’t take into account getting kidney disease, finding that going into the Air Force was no longer an option and the foreign service wasn’t too “keen” on those of us with health problems (understandably so, I guess in hind sight) and then winding up living in a fairly small town (comparitively) where someone who spoke French, Russian, Japanese, English and was proficient in Ecclesiastical Latin was about as useless as “**** on a boar hog” as I’ve heard said down here 0 unless or course you wanted to teach -which unless you’re related to someone here is VERY difficult… Of course I also went a little further and worked on my Master’s in Ecclesiastical History - also a deffinate money maker (LOL).
Seriously, if I had the money, it would have been great to go get a liberal arts degree and “ponder” the faith at a Catholic University - but not wanting to have to have my parents fork out mega bucks (and yes many of these “Catholic” colleges are mega bucks - at least what I consider mega bucks-maybe not the price of Harvard but still expensive)- and what is someone supposed to do with a “Liberal Arts” degree? My answer - go get a master’s or another degree or go to law school. Most don’t go to school to study their faith - they go to school to learn to make money - it’s great if you can go to study your faith but that’s really not the purpose of college (IMHO).
God Bless
Rye

 

[Bluegoat]

to think about a more general context, I think universities and public education are suffering from larger problems, and they impact on many of the things which have been aid here.

Really, we North Americans spend 13 years in public school. There is no reason why most pupils should graduate without a decent grounding in math, grammar, literature, history, and logic. That is, a basic liberal arts education that will stand them in good stead to be citizens, parents, and go on to a more specific education if required or desired.

But few students come from public school with this kind of education. If they go to community college or trade school they don’t get it, because those institutions were never intended to provid it. If they study the sciences in university they may well not get it either, which has been very detrimental to the quality of our scientists. ( I think of Richard Dawkins, who clearly is missing some basic blocks in the area of the philosophy of science, or even epistemology, for example.) Only if they go to study one of the liberal arts do they get that gap filled in, and the university has to waste it’s time doing that work.

The other is that very many more people are going than really need to, and this has watered down the education that universities really give. I think there are two reasons for this - one is that as I noted above, people are failing to become educated in the broad sense in public school. The other is that governments implemented plans after the war and especially in the 1960’s to have as many people get university educations as possible.

But the purpose of the university is not career skills - that is what community colleges are for. THe purpose of the university has always been to support groups of scholars to seek truth in their respective disciplines. Professional schools are associated with universities so their students can take advantage of the learning of the scholars - so doctors can learn about biology, for example, at a fairly advanced level. So people wanting to enter professions or military officers often took undergraduate degrees. But the majority of other students would normally be people who were interested in being scholars.

All of these people suddenly entering did not want to be scholars, nor could society support so many academics. So they get various sorts of undergraduate degrees, and go on to jobs or skill training.

What effect has this had on the university? People have begun to think its purpose is career education, and it has begun to tailor its programs to that to the detriment of its core purpose. The quality of student is different and so professors must teach to a different level. And degree inflation has occurred when it is not really required for the field of work, except to compete with all the other applicants.

I think these problems account for a lot of the debate about the value of university education.

 

[eucharisteo]

The “Purpose of a University education” is really whatever the recipient wishes it to be. But I’d say most "recipients [aka students] don’t know because of exactly what you pointed out about the state of the public high school system.

Current administrators in many or all of the education systems are products of the same broken system. My first year of college was in a seminary. After moving to the public university setting I quickly realized a major lack of transformed lives all around me. I went from business (cold and dry) to Geology (interesting but lacking God) to engineering (cut throat ignorant morons who couldn’t tell you a Monet from a Picaso: meaning that they seriously lack a full education). It was obvious to me that I wanted a Liberal Arts education and ended up joining the Army to pay for college, see the world, and get out of my comfort zone. It worked. That’s when my interest in geography peaked. I was elevated above my closed environment for the first time and dealt with people from all over the world on active duty, though unpolished on many levels - but isn’t most of the world unpolished. I studied on my own during my spare time and even though I had planned to return to the seminary to at least finishing giving God a chance first for my vocation I ended up being redirected to marry a wonderful Christian woman that recently converted to Catholicism with me.

My plan was to return for a liberal arts degree and either get an engineering degree on top of it or do it afterward. I discovered a very good applied geography department, but only after moving away from my abusive father that threatened to kill everyone in my family as well as my new wife. Such a drama queen. But during one of my engineering classes I asked a student sitting next to me a question and he rolled his eyes at me and said something really rude. Engineering students are overly hostile and aggressively competitive. I have no problem with competition, since I’m pretty sharp anyway, but that is WAY over the top. Later I moved to a liberal arts college realizing my idea of combining degrees would be a good idea because becoming one of those knuckleheads was not my desire. I always notice a lack of true education on the part of those in business, science and engineering. I probably should have become an attorney but don’t have the desire to live that life knowing the attorneys around me.

Later after graduating and obtaining a good technical job in mapping I became a GIS technician, then Coordintor and moved over to city planning. From there I obtained a job in a private firm that I later discovered loathed planners and they placed a library of books on hydrology and hydraulics on me to train myself for engineering. I learned all of this and discovered just how educationally limited engineers really are in the world. I then went to a city and found out even more just how crude and obnoxious that even they were and recently resigned to trying something different. I was planning on obtaining a graduate degree in civil engineering but am having second thoughts and would now like to work in a liberal arts university or teach. Pray for me my last day in the engineering department was last Friday. Those engineers were very crude and rude and lacked a serious in depth education that can only be obtained by studying liberal arts. Find a mixed program, but don’t expect an extremely high return on your money. But if you don’t do it then you’ll lack a good job and/or a good education that can only be obtained from exposure to the various arts and sciences. I’ve taken everything under the son on top of my other classes. My brothers teases me and calls me a professional student, even though I’ve worked my entire life since high school.

There is a spike in people of faith across the board, evident by many falling away from their faith. After wasting nearly a lifetime trying to make their way in this broken world, some of those return to their faith and thus programs like “Catholics Come Home” kick off to reach out to this group. Other ecclesial communities are doing similar things. Most traditional churches are experiencing declines in attendance because real education was limited to the haves and the rest were expected to follow blindly - a modern heresy to me that parallels the clericalism heresies we’ve all experienced - we can’t possibly learn because we aren’t called like priests. Vatican Council II enlightens us that this is not true. All people are called to holiness and the baptized are called to evangelize. How can you really evangelize if you don’t educate yourself or get the education through traditional methods in universities?. People aren’t getting filled with what they need to make good solid choices that lean towards seeking God. Anything other than that is not a university education but rather a high tech trade school where people graduate thinking they are as educated as someone that learns the liberal arts, which includes science and math as well integrated in the curriculum. That’s my honest opinion on this subject.

 

[Realist]

Is a college education worth the cost not just in terms of the price of college but more importantly in the risk to the soul from activist professors with anti-life and anti-religion philosophies that contribute to students loss of faith as well as the general moral decay that is present on many college campuses that encourages sinful activities such as sex and drinking? Is the economic advancement that comes from paying for a degree worth the risks to the faith? Today, many secular economists are arguing on economic grounds to NOT go to college since the costs are higher than the pay offs these days and that investing the money elsewhere and building work experience should mean more than a degree. However, in my view the threat to the faith of a young person should be the greater question. Is economic advancement and educational achievement worth the possibility of losing your faith and possibility eternal salvation?

I would extend this discussion to public high school but in those years parents have direct control over what their kids learn and the parents can counteract some of the bad teaching and influences to a greater degree. In college, this is not a possibility and the new found freedom contributes to the loss of faith and sinful behavior.

From my experiences, the worst classes are philosophy and comparative religion classes in college followed by science courses. Philosophy and comparative religion in Jesuit colleges and secular universities teach errors such as that all religions are pretty much the same and morality does not exist. Teaching like this with a cultural of peer pressure for sinfulness puts youth in a high risk to fall and many do fall. So it begs the question about the benefits compared to the risks of college.

I wouldn’t even respond to this, but I teach at a university. Conservatives in this country seem to think we’re the enemy, but we really aren’t. I don’t even know why the controversy exists. What we require is that our students are thoughtful, engaged, and articulate in their arguments. We require that our students present their points through deference to authority and to the rules of logic. If a Christian student doesn’t feel he or she can logically defend his or her beliefs, then college is a great place for that student to learn how to use modern (and not so modern: think Aristotle) system of logic to build strong arguments regarding the god in which he or she chooses to believe. By all means, if you wish to espouse whatever you want for whatever reason you want, go ahead and skip college. I’m sure McDonald’s would love to hire you.

 

[eucharisteo]

I wouldn’t even respond to this, but I teach at a university. Conservatives in this country seem to think we’re the enemy, but we really aren’t. I don’t even know why the controversy exists. What we require is that our students are thoughtful, engaged, and articulate in their arguments. We require that our students present their points through deference to authority and to the rules of logic. If a Christian student doesn’t feel he or she can logically defend his or her beliefs, then college is a great place for that student to learn how to use modern (and not so modern: think Aristotle) system of logic to build strong arguments regarding the god in which he or she chooses to believe. By all means, if you wish to espouse whatever you want for whatever reason you want, go ahead and skip college. I’m sure McDonald’s would love to hire you.

I agree on much of what you’ve said. Many of my profs were pretty decent people, some liberal and others more conservative. It’s a hodgepodge of folks that make up the systems.

 

[dominicandinah]

To earn a salary where they can support and raise a family in a decent neighborhood (or better) and provide all members of the family decent opportunities in life.

I can name a lot of folks in my own parish. Blue-collar, skilled tradesman with union jobs that are pulling in 75,000-100,000 a year. However, I’m sure there are many of you out there who don’t consider someone successful unless they are making over $250,000 a year and have a McMansion, luxury SUV’s and yearly trips to Disneyworld…

With the drastic economic downtown in the past 2 years, the local “junior colleges”, community colleges and trade schools saw a massive increase in enrollment…mainly from those that already had a college degree…hmmmmm, wonder what that says about college (as in 4 year, university education) being a must???

 

[dominicandinah]

Of course a degree is worth it. Unless you want to be satisfied with menial jobs the rest of your life, a college degree is definitely worth it.

Very few people are successful these days without a college degree.

Wonder if your plumber that had on the job training and pulls in 90,000 a year feels like his job is menial because he doesn’t have a degree. Or your auto mechanic, or heating and air conditioning specialist? Or the radiology tech that takes your x-ray? I suppose you may look down on them, but you sure appreciate them when you need them, don’t you?

I found your comment to be lacking both charity and respect to those that don’t have a degree.

In my state alone (Illinois), we’ve had enrollment almost double in some community college programs since the economy went south…nearly all those applying to these programs had a university degree in something that obviously wasn’t getting the bills paid! Please consider that there are many on here who don’t possess a college degree and you’ve insulted them by stating the majority of them are not successful and the work they do is menial!!!

 

[dominicandinah]

I wouldn’t even respond to this, but I teach at a university. Conservatives in this country seem to think we’re the enemy, but we really aren’t. I don’t even know why the controversy exists. What we require is that our students are thoughtful, engaged, and articulate in their arguments. We require that our students present their points through deference to authority and to the rules of logic. If a Christian student doesn’t feel he or she can logically defend his or her beliefs, then college is a great place for that student to learn how to use modern (and not so modern: think Aristotle) system of logic to build strong arguments regarding the god in which he or she chooses to believe. By all means, if you wish to espouse whatever you want for whatever reason you want, go ahead and skip college. I’m sure McDonald’s would love to hire you.

My plumber skipped college. My auto mechanic did, too. They probably make more than I do with my MSW. I appreciate what they do for me and don’t look down on them because they received vocational school, “on-the-job” or apprenticeship training. I am amazed at the arrogant attitude people on a Catholic forum display towards those that have chosen not to get a traditional college degree.

 

[CountrySinger]

I can name a lot of folks in my own parish. Blue-collar, skilled tradesman with union jobs that are pulling in 75,000-100,000 a year. However, I’m sure there are many of you out there who don’t consider someone successful unless they are making over $250,000 a year and have a McMansion, luxury SUV’s and yearly trips to Disneyworld…

With the drastic economic downtown in the past 2 years, the local “junior colleges”, community colleges and trade schools saw a massive increase in enrollment…mainly from those that already had a college degree…hmmmmm, wonder what that says about college (as in 4 year, university education) being a must???

Also grad schools are experiencing a boost (sorry, I had to mention it from personal experience, but I did get in, YAY). Other teachers finally figured out that Special Education is a sure job I guess, lol.
I have dated a plumber. He was very nice, but working a physically demanding job does take its toll. He was young (mid-30s), and had ailments like he was a lot older (bad back, bad hands and wrists, etc.). What happens if he couldn’t physically work when he was in his 40s? I tried to convince him to try to get into moving up or getting into management, etc.
We broke up, because of different values though. I needed someone who valued education (my field), and he didn’t.

 

[Nec5]

If you can get into the four year college/university and afford it… do it. Don’t waste time at community college. The level of education at a four year University is much better, you are around students who are more focused towards learning, and you will be challenged more than a community college.

That’s pure nonsense. I teach at a community college. I’ve taught at two major four year institutions (one private; one public). It’s the same instruction, and the majority of students are identical in demeanor (goof offs as freshmen and sophomores). Because community college classes tend to be smaller, there’s greater liberty to actually work with students and address their concerns.

The only thing that makes a given course worthwhile is the instructor. Don’t let anyone fool you; some are loonies and others give you a fair shot.

Combining closer teacher contact with the price, it’s not a difficult decision, and the only real reason to head straight to a four year institution is because you want the "university experience, which is generally overrated and overpriced.

 

[dominicandinah]

Also grad schools are experiencing a boost (sorry, I had to mention it from personal experience, but I did get in, YAY). Other teachers finally figured out that Special Education is a sure job I guess, lol.
I have dated a plumber. He was very nice, but working a physically demanding job does take its toll. He was young (mid-30s), and had ailments like he was a lot older (bad back, bad hands and wrists, etc.). What happens if he couldn’t physically work when he was in his 40s? I tried to convince him to try to get into moving up or getting into management, etc.
We broke up, because of different values though. I needed someone who valued education (my field), and he didn’t.

Congrats on getting into grad school! I see your point with someone having to do physically challenging work, but in the same regard, I can point out those that have high stress “white collar” jobs are at an increased risk of having a stroke or heart attack.

I’m glad you were able to realize that you and this young man were not suited for each other. However, not everybody is suited to college.

While I found nothing in your comment that was offensive, it’s sad to see so many Catholics and other Christians that practice their faith look down at those that choose not to attend college. Nearly every comment on here that speaks of the value of a college education also makes a degrading and insulting remark at those who opt not to get a degree. It saddens me to think how much “affluenza” and materialism affect practicing Catholics.

 

[CountrySinger]

Congrats on getting into grad school! I see your point with someone having to do physically challenging work, but in the same regard, I can point out those that have high stress “white collar” jobs are at an increased risk of having a stroke or heart attack.

I’m glad you were able to realize that you and this young man were not suited for each other. However, not everybody is suited to college.

While I found nothing in your comment that was offensive, it’s sad to see so many Catholics and other Christians that practice their faith look down at those that choose not to attend college. Nearly every comment on here that speaks of the value of a college education also makes a degrading and insulting remark at those who opt not to get a degree. It saddens me to think how much “affluenza” and materialism affect practicing Catholics.

I didn’t mean anything offensive at all. I’m getting my master’s in Special Education, which I am very excited about. It’s job security, plus the education field is very family-friendly (I want to get married and raise a family as well).
I know that not everyone is meant for college. I do think that people need to have a skill that they can use in the job market ( a trade counts).
To me, as long as there is a roof overhead, no one is hungry, and basic needs are taken care of, it’s all good. Money is nice, but it’s not the end all.

 

[dominicandinah]

I didn’t mean anything offensive at all. I’m getting my master’s in Special Education, which I am very excited about. It’s job security, plus the education field is very family-friendly (I want to get married and raise a family as well).
I know that not everyone is meant for college. I do think that people need to have a skill that they can use in the job market ( a trade counts).
To me, as long as there is a roof overhead, no one is hungry, and basic needs are taken care of, it’s all good. Money is nice, but it’s not the end all.

Uh-oh, I hope you didn’t think I was “calling you out” on your post…quite the contrary and now reading your reply, I can say I’m happy that at least one other person on here does “get it” as far as what’s truly important!

Teaching is great for family life…you have summers and holidays off! Healthcare is great for tag-team parenting, too. Best wishes in your endeavors. God Bless!

 

[CountrySinger]

Uh-oh, I hope you didn’t think I was “calling you out” on your post…quite the contrary and now reading your reply, I can say I’m happy that at least one other person on here does “get it” as far as what’s truly important!

Teaching is great for family life…you have summers and holidays off! Healthcare is great for tag-team parenting, too. Best wishes in your endeavors. God Bless!

I didn’t think you were calling me out, don’t worry. In college, my friends all thought I was insane for going into teaching (they were business and engineering majors mostly). But I love kids and I hate cubicles, lol. And if I end up a SAHM, I can still use my degree and homeschool.

 

[Cat]

Plumbers, auto mechanics, heating and air-conditioning specialists–these are what are called “skilled professions.” Plumbers in particular have to undergo an apprenticement for several years, and many hours of training. Auto mechanics have to pass certification tests.

Many people, myself included, do not have the right kind of intelligence to enter these professions. I don’t have any mechanical aptitude and I’m helpless with tools, wires, and pipes.

I think the word “menial” was an unfortunate word choice. I’m sure the poster was not referring to the professions listed above. I’m guessing that the poster was referring to jobs like fast food worker, retail sales, office assistant, housekeeping, etc.

Certainly on a spiritual level, these jobs are worthwhile, meaningful, and can be fulfilling and enjoyable. We should not look down upon such people or consider ourselves better.

But these jobs generally don’t pay a living wage, and they generally do not provide benefits adequate to support a family. That’s what the poster was referring to when he/she used the word “menial.”

These jobs were never meant to support families; most of them were meant as temporary part-time work for teenagers, college students, and as second jobs for people who are trying to make a little extra money for family pleasures, debt repayment, etc.

Often these types of jobs do not last. People burn out quickly and leave these jobs to search for something better, and many people without college degrees or technical school training end up in another similiar job with inadequate salary and no or inadequate benefits.

Often a college degree, or a year or two in a business school, is enough to qualify a person for a management position. Instead of making the french fries, a person can manage the whole restaurant, and in the process, receive a higher salary and full-time benefits. Or instead of selling clothing or computers, a person can manage the whole store or even the mall or shopping center. Or instead of assisting in the office, a person can get a job as the Administrative Aid, or Secretary, or Office Manager–these jobs are generally better-paying and come with benefits. Or instead of scrubbing floors and making beds, a person could manage the team of housekeepers.

But generally speaking, people do not rise to management positions without some kind of post-high-school education. And people do not do skilled professions without tech school or apprenticeship.

Without that education, many people remain in a job that doesn’t pay a living wage and doesn’t provide benefits.

There are plenty of people on CAF, especially women, who write anquished posts about money struggles. It may sound spiritual to be poor, but on a daily basis, it is very difficult to struggle along and wonder if you will have enough money to buy food for your children. For a man attempting to support a wife and children, this kind of povery and struggle can be completely demoralizing. His masculinity is dependent on providing for his family. When he can’t, even working several jobs, he becomes despondent. Just read more posts in this section and you’ll see that I speak the truth.

There’s a huge difference between materialism and wanting enough money to pay for a decent, worry-free lifestyle. We should not look down on those who want to make enough money to provide their families with good things and even luxuries. That is not materialism. Materialism is entirely relative. To someone with nothing, the person who possesses a crust of bread can be considered materialistic. Many of the poor are more materilistic than the rich because materialism is an attitude of wanting–think about that. We need to be careful about throwing such a serious accusation at others.

BTW, an x-ray technologist has a FOUR YEAR COLLEGE DEGREE and a year of internship. Most hospital professions in technical fields require a Bachelor’s Degree. And an x-ray tech makes good money and good benefits, and enjoys a satisfying profession helping people and saving lives.

 

[purplesunshine]

That’s pure nonsense. I teach at a community college. I’ve taught at two major four year institutions (one private; one public). It’s the same instruction, and the majority of students are identical in demeanor (goof offs as freshmen and sophomores). Because community college classes tend to be smaller, there’s greater liberty to actually work with students and address their concerns.

The only thing that makes a given course worthwhile is the instructor. Don’t let anyone fool you; some are loonies and others give you a fair shot.

Combining closer teacher contact with the price, it’s not a difficult decision, and the only real reason to head straight to a four year institution is because you want the "university experience, which is generally overrated and overpriced.

I have to disagree:

As someone who went to a private college…had friends who went to state and I know know comunnity colleges deeply.

I had the opportunity to compare 3 sylibi side by side that used the EXACT same english text book (English 102-literature). The work load at the private school was THREE TIMES what was expected of the CC students and about one third to twice the work expected of the state school students. The Private college wasn’t top tier, either.

I’ve since had the chance to make not page-for-page comparisons across different subjects. Some the CC’s seem to do better depending on their programs…computer graphics classes for instance were off the charts better than the private uni. But for the most part they lagged behind in many significant ways. The nursing programs were both off the charts according to most standards, however, the uni kids had swankier job opportunities upon graduating. Many entered the field at a higher rate of pay or with better positions. I can’t say much for the cost value, although the Uni was almost entirely dorming students and the CC had no dorms, leading to a much different student body. And I am talking comparing a CC of 3,000 against a university of 3,000…class sizes were about the same…sometimes much smaller at the private university.

If my future children were to want to study a subject I’d send them to a Uni with a good program straight away and not advice them to “save money” at a CC. If they were not the college type then I would probably set them up with vocational training or let them take some CC classes (although i hope to intergrate CC classes as part of HS)

The thing about CC’s or any college is that it’s hit or miss. There is a private top rated highschool about 60miles from my CC that uses the same books that we use in their LOWER level classes. Eg: their 7th grade history book is OUR History 201 book.