College: Worth the cost?

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Plumbers, auto mechanics, heating and air-conditioning specialists–these are what are called “skilled professions.” Plumbers in particular have to undergo an apprenticement for several years, and many hours of training. Auto mechanics have to pass certification tests.

Many people, myself included, do not have the right kind of intelligence to enter these professions. I don’t have any mechanical aptitude and I’m helpless with tools, wires, and pipes.

I think the word “menial” was an unfortunate word choice. I’m sure the poster was not referring to the professions listed above. I’m guessing that the poster was referring to jobs like fast food worker, retail sales, office assistant, housekeeping, etc.

Certainly on a spiritual level, these jobs are worthwhile, meaningful, and can be fulfilling and enjoyable. We should not look down upon such people or consider ourselves better.

But these jobs generally don’t pay a living wage, and they generally do not provide benefits adequate to support a family. That’s what the poster was referring to when he/she used the word “menial.”

These jobs were never meant to support families; most of them were meant as temporary part-time work for teenagers, college students, and as second jobs for people who are trying to make a little extra money for family pleasures, debt repayment, etc.

Often these types of jobs do not last. People burn out quickly and leave these jobs to search for something better, and many people without college degrees or technical school training end up in another similiar job with inadequate salary and no or inadequate benefits.

Often a college degree, or a year or two in a business school, is enough to qualify a person for a management position. Instead of making the french fries, a person can manage the whole restaurant, and in the process, receive a higher salary and full-time benefits. Or instead of selling clothing or computers, a person can manage the whole store or even the mall or shopping center. Or instead of assisting in the office, a person can get a job as the Administrative Aid, or Secretary, or Office Manager–these jobs are generally better-paying and come with benefits. Or instead of scrubbing floors and making beds, a person could manage the team of housekeepers.

But generally speaking, people do not rise to management positions without some kind of post-high-school education. And people do not do skilled professions without tech school or apprenticeship.

Without that education, many people remain in a job that doesn’t pay a living wage and doesn’t provide benefits.

There are plenty of people on CAF, especially women, who write anquished posts about money struggles. It may sound spiritual to be poor, but on a daily basis, it is very difficult to struggle along and wonder if you will have enough money to buy food for your children. For a man attempting to support a wife and children, this kind of povery and struggle can be completely demoralizing. His masculinity is dependent on providing for his family. When he can’t, even working several jobs, he becomes despondent. Just read more posts in this section and you’ll see that I speak the truth.

There’s a huge difference between materialism and wanting enough money to pay for a decent, worry-free lifestyle. We should not look down on those who want to make enough money to provide their families with good things and even luxuries. That is not materialism. Materialism is entirely relative. To someone with nothing, the person who possesses a crust of bread can be considered materialistic. Many of the poor are more materilistic than the rich because materialism is an attitude of wanting–think about that. We need to be careful about throwing such a serious accusation at others.

BTW, an x-ray technologist has a FOUR YEAR COLLEGE DEGREE and a year of internship. Most hospital professions in technical fields require a Bachelor’s Degree. And an x-ray tech makes good money and good benefits, and enjoys a satisfying profession helping people and saving lives.
As a social worker in the hospital setting, I know that a FOUR YEAR DEGREE IS NOT required to be a Radiologic Technologist (X-ray Tech). In fact, the hospital system I am employed in has a Radiologic Technologist Program that is approximately 18 months in length. After completing it, the students are eligible to sit for the national exam. While one can attend a 2 year college or program, along with also earning a Bachelor’s in Allied Health at a 4 year college to become a Radiologic Tech, it is not necessary. The same goes for Respiratory Therapists, Surgical Technologists, MRI Techs, Cardiovascular Techs, etc. The only thing a B.S. in Allied health does is give you a step up towards management or if you want to go into teaching these fields. You can visit www.asrt.org to find out more about becoming a Radiologic Technologist.

BTW, thanks for clarifying to others about the difference between “skilled trades” and what those one here seem to consider “menial” jobs…unfortunately, the prevalent attitude with most on this thread is that they are the same thing.
 
*I thought that was an unfortunate word choice also. College isn’t for everyone…and it doesn’t always dictate that you’ll be making a great salary, just because you graduated with a BA. Do many employers in corporate america look for degreed applicants for their jobs? Yes, but my sister didn’t set foot for a day in a college, and she runs an entire resort making 6 digits. So…it depends on the person, industry, and longevity in the field you’re in, too. Experience thankfully, counts for something…STILL. :o

I also can’t help but wonder nowadays with such a horrible job shortage, and employers not putting forth money for support and training of new hires like they used to (they want experienced people) what modern day college grads are doing with their degrees? I’ve read that MANY are unable to find work…so imagine you shell out all that money for a degree, and you’re not able to find anything really worth while that will pay your bills. Ít has me a bit worried for my own kids…my dd has a little while to go before going to college, but my son goes off in two years…so…hopefully, at some point, we’ll start seeing more employers hiring. *
 
To those here who were offended by the ‘‘menial’’ comment…understandable. (I for one, don’t believe that having an education is the only option out of high school) But, to those of you who think getting a degree is nothing more than a ‘scrap of paper,’ that is equally offensive. It isn’t just a time for partying endlessly, like many might believe. Many students take their futures seriously, and buckle down, and want to go the course. It takes discipline, and effort…it is much more than a scrap of paper to many of us. 😉
 
Of course a degree is worth it. Unless you want to be satisfied with menial jobs the rest of your life, a college degree is definitely worth it.

Very few people are successful these days without a college degree.
*Unfortunately, you are right…and I say unfortunately, because I have seen interns come through where I work…who are chronically late, have an entitlement attitude, and are frankly a bit lazy. I absolutely cherish the education I received in college…but, I think that employers have become snobs when looking at people who don’t have degrees…as if they couldn’t possibly bring anything to the table like a college grad. A lot of the older women in my office, say 55+…work ten times harder than the college grads who are in their late 20’s…coming in doing the same jobs. I also think that many college grads can’t communicate well…they do everything by email, blackberry, etc…I am a college grad…but, I definitely think that employers have created an uneven playing field, automatically assuming that if someone doesn’t have a degree, they couldn’t possibly be a hot commodity…and we have fired interestingly, more people with degrees where I work, than people who don’t have them. College is a very sheltered world, too…I had a rude awakening when I got my first job out of the gate…A RUDE AWAKENING. I believe highly in higher education, but I think that there is this false notion out there that suggests that you must have a college degree to be successful…and that’s only because many companies won’t give the non degreed person a chance to even get his/her foot in the door.

Know what I mean…it’s like…is the college person truly more capable for the job, or have employers just become so snobby, that they don’t want any non degreed people working for them, so it appears like only college educated folks are making good money. Would be interesting to do a study on this. :hmmm: *
 
To those here who were offended by the ‘‘menial’’ comment…understandable. (I for one, don’t believe that having an education is the only option out of high school) But, to those of you who think getting a degree is nothing more than a ‘scrap of paper,’ that is equally offensive. It isn’t just a time for partying endlessly, like many might believe. Many students take their futures seriously, and buckle down, and want to go the course. It takes discipline, and effort…it is much more than a scrap of paper to many of us. 😉
The scrap of paper comment offended me as well. I went to a very good private university (with aid it was cheaper than community college or state school). I worked my hiney off, and my degree required real life experience (we were required to log 1000 hours of experience with children before we started student teaching) in addition to a demanding class load. And I worked a full time job in college carrying 21 hours a semester. Yep, I’m the lazy college student. And I graduated top of my class.
 
The scrap of paper comment offended me as well. I went to a very good private university (with aid it was cheaper than community college or state school). I worked my hiney off, and my degree required real life experience (we were required to log 1000 hours of experience with children before we started student teaching) in addition to a demanding class load. And I worked a full time job in college carrying 21 hours a semester. Yep, I’m the lazy college student. And I graduated top of my class.
*Good for you! That’s truly awesome…👍👍

I sense some …classism here…like some here think if you don’t get a degree then you are categorized as ‘‘this,’’ or if you do get a degree…then you’re over here in ‘‘xyz’’ slot. No need to cut someone down because they went to college…and you didn’t. And likewise…don’t look down at people who didn’t get a degree, just because you did. Everyone is a unique child of God, and we shouldn’t be classifying anyone as anything here. Just my ramblings for the day–sorry! :p*
 
*Good for you! That’s truly awesome…👍👍

I sense some …classism here…like some here think if you don’t get a degree then you are categorized as ‘‘this,’’ or if you do get a degree…then you’re over here in ‘‘xyz’’ slot. No need to cut someone down because they went to college…and you didn’t. And likewise…don’t look down at people who didn’t get a degree, just because you did. Everyone is a unique child of God, and we shouldn’t be classifying anyone as anything here. Just my ramblings for the day–sorry! :p*
A family friend works for the HR department for the state, and their “view” is that college graduates can finish what they start. I did get a state job before I moved away. I might have a bachelors, but I have an awesome work ethic. No job is below me, and I will work my best. Do I want to work in a call center the rest of my life? NO. But I don’t act like it is below me, you know?
 
Yes, I do know…I think that while the degree is a good thing to have, ultimately, it’s a door opener ONLY. What we do beyond the door matters the most…and a good work ethic, team spirit is what keeps people moving up the ladder…although, at my company, very few move up the ladder of mgmt without the degree. And to me, that’s so short sighted on their part, because there are some very talented people who never went to college …in various departments. Some jobs require a degree…I don’t need a degree to do my job, to be honest…I’m in sales and marketing…you just need a thick skin to accept rejection on a daily basis…and the ability to communicate well. I make a great living, but…to me? I don’t need my degree. But, see? I wouldn’t have been hired without the degree…so it’s kind of off like that. 🤷
 
Yes, I do know…I think that while the degree is a good thing to have, ultimately, it’s a door opener ONLY. What we do beyond the door matters the most…and a good work ethic, team spirit is what keeps people moving up the ladder…although, at my company, very few move up the ladder of mgmt without the degree. And to me, that’s so short sighted on their part, because there are some very talented people who never went to college …in various departments. Some jobs require a degree…I don’t need a degree to do my job, to be honest…I’m in sales and marketing…you just need a thick skin to accept rejection on a daily basis…and the ability to communicate well. I make a great living, but…to me? I don’t need my degree. But, see? I wouldn’t have been hired without the degree…so it’s kind of off like that. 🤷
I can see both sides, from a business’s point of view, a degree does show that a person is somewhat intelligent, but it’s not foolproof. Having a degree helped me a lot when looking for jobs. I stood out from people who just graduated high school.
For me, my future career does require advanced education. I know I’d want my future children’s teacher to be educated. There is a difference between book and street smarts, but I think people need both. I could know all about child development, but miss the emotional part of teaching. Or I could have the emotional part, but not understand what I’m teaching the kids.
In my opinion, people should do what they love, and it shouldn’t matter their educational level. If a person loves plumbing, do they really need a phd? I do what to become a professor when I’m older, so I do need a phd.
 
I think that most people need some sort of post high school education and/or job training. Obviously, there are going to be exceptions. I know someone who has a high school education who makes around $100k per year in his own business. I think he is the exception though. I don’t think that everyone should necessarily go to college, some people do quite well in the skilled trades or other areas.
 
There is too much emphasis here on how much money a person can earn with or without a degree. Is that really all people are going to college for? I guess wanting to make a lot of money is a valid reason, but many of us go to university for more than just the piece of paper or the (hopefully) inflated paycheck. I’m in grad school now (both taking classes and teaching undergrads), and I have to say that the degree I’m pursuing is, in an of itself, meaningless. I’m pursuing the degree because of what I’m learning. And I think that should be a factor. If you have no interest in what you’re learning at a traditional university, there are certainly other worthwhile and less expensive options.
 
As a social worker in the hospital setting, I know that a FOUR YEAR DEGREE IS NOT required to be a Radiologic Technologist (X-ray Tech). In fact, the hospital system I am employed in has a Radiologic Technologist Program that is approximately 18 months in length. After completing it, the students are eligible to sit for the national exam. While one can attend a 2 year college or program, along with also earning a Bachelor’s in Allied Health at a 4 year college to become a Radiologic Tech, it is not necessary. The same goes for Respiratory Therapists, Surgical Technologists, MRI Techs, Cardiovascular Techs, etc. The only thing a B.S. in Allied health does is give you a step up towards management or if you want to go into teaching these fields. You can visit www.asrt.org to find out more about becoming a Radiologic Technologist.

BTW, thanks for clarifying to others about the difference between “skilled trades” and what those one here seem to consider “menial” jobs…unfortunately, the prevalent attitude with most on this thread is that they are the same thing.
I’m not quite sure about this.

I looked at a few other sites and it seemed that rad techs need an Associates or Bachelors degree.

I’m wondering if it’s like my profession, Medical Technologist. There are several possibilities of lab careers: Medical Technologist is a 4 year degree (Bachelors), Medical Lab Technician is a 2-year degree (Associates), and a Certified Lab Assistant has 6 months of training.

So it sounds on the surface like there are options that don’t require much college. But in reality, MLTs and CLAs are not always welcome.

Our hospital doesn’t like to hire MLTs or CLAs. The few that we have in our lab make significantly less money than the MTs, even though they do the same work. That’s tough on them.

Usually the Med Techs that rise to a management position have a Master’s Degree, either an MBA, or a Master’s in some related field. Our Lab Manager has a Master’s in Education.

It’s very hard to become a manager of a lab, since usually the managers stay until they retire.

Again, not sure if MTs and RTs are simliar. One big difference is that MTs–thank the Lord!–are not licensed, while RTs and many other medical professions are licensed. I hope that we never get to a point where licensing is required for MTS. Waste of money.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that even though there are careers in health care that don’t require college, most of the health care professions require at least some post high school education and many do require at least an Associate’s Degree. Perhaps this will change under Obamacare; I’m thinking that health care would be a lot cheaper if health care workers were hired straight out of high school and trained on the job. I don’t agree with this, but I admit that in the face of a continued shortage of health care workers, reducing the eduational requirements would result in more workers, and this should reduce salaries. OTOH, many people, including myself, would not continue working with pee, poop, tissue, blood, etc. unless I am paid a very handsome salary. It’s not worth the risk.
 
I hinted at this in my earlier post.

There are different kinds of intelligence. I’m sure many of you have read the various articles. There are various classification systems for these different kinds of intelligence.

There are people who are very book-smart, but can’t function without someone to cook and pay bills.

There are people who are very art-smart, but they can’t network with others or market their art. (That would be me.)

There are people who are mechanically-intelligent, but they can’t read

There are people who can sell anything, but they don’t know anything about literature, math, science, etc.

You get the idea.

There are rare people who are smart in many ways. My husband is one of these–he is knowledgeable about many different subjects. He has B.S. degrees in Computer Science and Math, and a minor in linguistics. He’s artistic. He’s mechanical–he can fix or build anything. He’s well-read.

But…he lacks the kind of intelligence that knows how to turn all those talents into big bucks! He’s very introverted (except around his skating friends) and he’s awkward in social settings.

My dad is just the opposite–he basically has mechanical intelligence and that’s it. He dropped out of school in 7th grade and has to hire someone to read for him. He loves music and other arts, but he can’t do any of them. He loves medical subjects and talks with doctors, but he doesn’t know the first thing about cell biology or biochemistry or even biology.

However, he has the kind of intelligence that knows how to turn almost anything into big bucks! He owns so many houses that I’ve lost track. He buys and sells antiques, copper wire, etc.–anything that will make money. He’s effervescent and outgoing–I think this is part of the kind of intelligence that can make money. He sells himself well, and people like and trust him, therefore they buy from him.

I think people should try to figure out what kind of intelligence they have and go with it. And even more importantly, I think that parents should accept whatever kind of intelligences their children were given by God, and encourage it.

If the parents want a book-smart intelligent child, but ended up with an art-smart intelligent child, they should give up their dreams of a little professor and accept that their child will probably grow up to be some kind of artist who lives from gig to gig.

Or if the parents wanted a little girl who is mechanical, but the girl can’t keep the ends of a wrench straight (that would be me), however, she is very outgoing and interested in other people, the parents should go with that and stop trying to get her interested in wiring the family room or fixing the car.

A lot of us compare ourselves or our children to others, and we want to be like them. We have to accept who we or our spouses or children really are and make the most of it.
 
I’m not quite sure about this.

I looked at a few other sites and it seemed that rad techs need an Associates or Bachelors degree.

I’m wondering if it’s like my profession, Medical Technologist. There are several possibilities of lab careers: Medical Technologist is a 4 year degree (Bachelors), Medical Lab Technician is a 2-year degree (Associates), and a Certified Lab Assistant has 6 months of training.

So it sounds on the surface like there are options that don’t require much college. But in reality, MLTs and CLAs are not always welcome.

Our hospital doesn’t like to hire MLTs or CLAs. The few that we have in our lab make significantly less money than the MTs, even though they do the same work. That’s tough on them.

Usually the Med Techs that rise to a management position have a Master’s Degree, either an MBA, or a Master’s in some related field. Our Lab Manager has a Master’s in Education.

It’s very hard to become a manager of a lab, since usually the managers stay until they retire.

Again, not sure if MTs and RTs are simliar. One big difference is that MTs–thank the Lord!–are not licensed, while RTs and many other medical professions are licensed. I hope that we never get to a point where licensing is required for MTS. Waste of money.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that even though there are careers in health care that don’t require college, most of the health care professions require at least some post high school education and many do require at least an Associate’s Degree. Perhaps this will change under Obamacare; I’m thinking that health care would be a lot cheaper if health care workers were hired straight out of high school and trained on the job. I don’t agree with this, but I admit that in the face of a continued shortage of health care workers, reducing the eduational requirements would result in more workers, and this should reduce salaries. OTOH, many people, including myself, would not continue working with pee, poop, tissue, blood, etc. unless I am paid a very handsome salary. It’s not worth the risk.
I understand your doubts about Rad Tech, etc, but please see the link I provided in my first reply to you. It lists the different ways in which to get an education to become a Radiologic Technologist (known to those outside healthcare as X-ray Techs). I checked on the program at my hospital, which is 18 months long. To be admitted, you need a few classes from the local junior college prior to beginning the 18 month phase. I would take a wild guess that the ASRT are equating this with an Associate Degree, although it’s still considered a “hospital-based” program. My niece is a respiratory therapist and received her Associate in Applied Science from a 2 year community college in Indiana. Her credentials are Registered Respiratory Therapist (RRT), same as her co-workers that hold a Bachelor’s in Allied Health. Just as we still have Associate Degree Nursing programs and a few lingering hospital-based schools of nursing, those graduates still sit for the same NCLEX exams as their peers that earned an BSN at a 4 year college or university and still earn the same title and licensure as Registered Nurse (RN).

All paraprofessional healthcare positions DO require some post high school training; whether it’s a 6 month long EMT course at the local fire department, a year-long medical assisting course at a vocational school, or the hospital-based programs for a few Allied Health jobs. The only one that I can think of that doesn’t require more than a couple of weeks of training is a nurse’s aid and God bless them for the tasks that they are required to do!

Along with you (and the majority of the US), I hope and pray “obamacare” doesn’t go any further this week!
 
I hinted at this in my earlier post.

There are different kinds of intelligence. I’m sure many of you have read the various articles. There are various classification systems for these different kinds of intelligence.
👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

And as was also hinted at… The type of schooling that best benefits people (financially) is influenced by the type of intelligence that the individual processes.

The subject did come as to whether financial gain is the only reason to go to college. Well, of course it isn’t. But for the purposes of this thread we can really only address the way education impacts finances and/or overall quality of life.

A bachelor of liberal arts degree is unlikely to contribute greatly to a plumber’s financial success. But it might help him become a more well rounded person or factor into a hobby. But a plumber would probably benefit from technical training and perhaps some business training. A plumbing business has the potential of being far more financially lucrative than careers which require a bachelor of science degree.

And not only does the best type of education vary by the type of intelligence… The best type of education often depends on the organization where one wishes to work. Someone who wants to be self employed will needs different skills than the majority of us who are just going to be employees of someone else. College does a good job of teaching us to use our skills as part of a bureaucracy …er… corporation.
 
If you can get into the four year college/university and afford it… do it. Don’t waste time at community college. The level of education at a four year University is much better, you are around students who are more focused towards learning, and you will be challenged more than a community college.
Not only is this comment nonsense and demeaning - it’s also highly inaccurate. It’s sad people not only think this - that they believe these things.

I do recommend to others and will insist to my own that our 2 year state community college be attended prior to the 4 year college.

Not that there is anything wrong with the 4 year local state school - the 2 year college matches the learning opportunities dollar for dollar at a much lesser cost.

I have Doctor’s in my family the leveraged the classes at the 2 year college and xfered the credits to the private college to get the credits offered. Their claim is the learning options at the community school were actually a little better than at the private school. They needed the private school only for the Doctor degree they have.

My wife and I both went to the local 2 year community college 20 years ago and loved it. In fact that is were we met and have been together since.
 
Is a college education worth the cost not just in terms of the price of college but more importantly in the risk to the soul from activist professors with anti-life and anti-religion philosophies that contribute to students loss of faith as well as the general moral decay that is present on many college campuses that encourages sinful activities such as sex and drinking? Is the economic advancement that comes from paying for a degree worth the risks to the faith? Today, many secular economists are arguing on economic grounds to NOT go to college since the costs are higher than the pay offs these days and that investing the money elsewhere and building work experience should mean more than a degree. However, in my view the threat to the faith of a young person should be the greater question. Is economic advancement and educational achievement worth the possibility of losing your faith and possibility eternal salvation?

I would extend this discussion to public high school but in those years parents have direct control over what their kids learn and the parents can counteract some of the bad teaching and influences to a greater degree. In college, this is not a possibility and the new found freedom contributes to the loss of faith and sinful behavior.

From my experiences, the worst classes are philosophy and comparative religion classes in college followed by science courses. Philosophy and comparative religion in Jesuit colleges and secular universities teach errors such as that all religions are pretty much the same and morality does not exist. Teaching like this with a cultural of peer pressure for sinfulness puts youth in a high risk to fall and many do fall. So it begs the question about the benefits compared to the risks of college.
In my opinion, a college education is absolutely, 100% worth it. If there’re things that concern you, you can always go to a Catholic university. But the things that you learn and the experiences you will be drawing upon the rest of your life.
 
Ultimately, a person can make or break his education wherever he gets it.

My cousin did a hisory degree. She put in as little work as possible, and it wasn’t very worthwhile. Not a total loss, but compared to money spent, a bust. She then went and did a year long electricians course at the community college, and worked hard, and now has her journeymen papers. She earns a good living and enjoys the work. She can get as much extra work privately as she wants, but leaves her work there when she is at home.

Lots of people prefer some practical work like this. In some places there is a real shortage of people to do it too. In Finland, too many people decide to go to university.
 
I absolutely think college is worth the cost. I’d advise people to get a good, firm grip on their faith because everything will be challenged, due to most of academia having a leftist agenda (I think it is now required in the hiring process at secular universities! :p). If you can ignore that kind of stuff, it is fine. There were times that I stood up for what I believed and got scorn for it, but okay.
I can honestly say that if I hadn’t finished my degree I wouldn’t be where I am today, with two performing art studios and about 23 faculty members. I don’t think I would have had to know-how to have put it all together.
Besides, I got the coolest degree ever - Literature. I got to read for four years. It was great. When I graduated I went into teaching, which became a passion for me as well as performing with my music. It just all came together for me, but I know my education really played a part in my career.
 
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