Colorado Abortionist works at Catholic Hospital

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Elizabeth502 said:
“Supportive sources” = your phrase, not mine. (If you’re addressing me.) Are you referring to the commonly understood, universal knowledge that religions vary widely in their moral assumptions, standards, definitions? I don’t need to provide “sources” for what is common knowledge. And it would get quite lengthy to quote the Talmud, the Mishnah, other sources. I don’t think people would be interesting in reading the obvious.

Well said.

Not well said. 😉 God is individualistic in his judgments, not relativistic. Big difference. 🙂 We will each have a personal judgment, not an institutional one.* That judgment will vary according to how we measured up to the gifts we were given or had access to, which would include an institutional framework but not be limited by that. We cannot limit God’s judgment or mercy in either direction.**
  • Source = The deposit of faith of the Catholic Church.
    ** Source = Saint Faustina, canonized by the Catholic Church
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Elizabeth, again:

**from you:
Elizabeth502 said:
"Actually, no. He will not judge us by equal standards.
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…

This is classic, orthodox, traditional Catholic theology. The Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc. all support this understanding."**

**B]from me: Here you go, E502.

**Show me with relevant quotes, please, how classic Catholic orthodox theology,
The Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc. all support this understanding
(support YOUR understanding) that God will not judge us (all) by equal standards.

Whenever you’re ready. ****

(Source: deposit of faith
Source: St. Faustina

mean nothing as Sources)
 
sorry Elizabeth but I can’t read your nessages-you are on ignore remembe? But please feel free to entertain the observors.I consider our exchanges to be a near ocassion of sin for me and I refuse to engage someone who attacks the personand their literary style and not the posit.est of luck with all that:)
 
^ Well I must not really be in “ignore” if you keep reading my posts. 🤷

I have not “attacked your person,” merely disagreed with your statements. Big difference.
 
catharina said:
Show me with relevant quotes, please, how classic Catholic orthodox theology,The Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc. all support this understanding
(support YOUR understanding) that God will not judge us (all) by equal standards.
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I did not say that there are not certain universal standards. I said that circumstances of the individual (knowledge, access, individual faith tradition in which they are raised, with which they identify) will be judged person to person, by God, not by you or anyone else on CAF. We cannot know what His judgments will be.

From Lumen Gentium:

those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) **Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. ***

—Pope Paul VI (otherwise known as, A Source, otherwise known as, an essential part of the Deposit of Faith)
 
Remain on the topic of the thread, and cease with the personal remarks
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I did not say that there are not certain universal standards. I said that circumstances of the individual (knowledge, access, individual faith tradition in which they are raised, with which they identify) will be judged person to person, by God, not by you or anyone else on CAF. We cannot know what His judgments will be.

From Lumen Gentium:

those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) **Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. ***

—Pope Paul VI (otherwise known as, A Source, otherwise known as, an essential part of the Deposit of Faith)
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E520 -

In reference to the topic of this thread, “Colorado Abortionist works at Catholic Hospital,”
you have said that those who are non-Catholic (in fact ALL, Jew, Gentile, Muslim ),
will be judged by God in this way: “He will not judge us by equal standards.”

As I said, this is news to me and certainly news to the Church.
God is God. His “standards” are unchanging - because He is God.

Now, with no attempt to deny your own words, with no apologies for your error,
you say this, quoting Lumen Gentium:
“Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know
the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive
by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.”

Of course, the quote is accurate and while it MIGHT be what you intended to imply,
it has no real bearing on what you actually said. In the matter of God, the Church
and abortion, if this is what you meant to say, you could have said it in the first place.

Claiming a point in the name of “classic, orthodox, traditional Catholic theology” and
adding “The Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc. all support this understanding”
does not make it so.

Lovely that you have now explained what you might have meant to say.
Sorry it took so many posts to bring out the facts.
 
It should already be a given that God is not going to judge one person, who is Cathlolic and knows his/her doctrine well, the same way as another person, who was born, raised and has been faithful to another religion. How would that be possible or even fair?
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.
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The above implies that a non-Catholic cannot be held the to same standard or expectation that a Catholic will simply because they lack the knowledge and understanding that a Catholic is supposed to have. I would go so far as to say that a Catholic who has not been catechized, because his/her parents dropped the ball and did nothing to nurture Catholicism in this person beyond baptism, also falls within the category. How can this person be blamed for not knowing or not understanding, when all their lives they haven’t been spiritually nurtured?

So it’s unfair to expect all these other religions to conform to the strict guidelines of Catholics. They have their own religion, and if they are faithful to it, do not know the rules of the Catholic Church, by no fault of their own.

So, with regards to Catholic Hospitals, again, they’re probably better off if they just grant privelidges to practicing Catholics and make them sign morality contracts. If they’re not going to do that, then they can expect that their staff will be doing things they don’t approve of elsewhere.

This of course, would probably trickle down to nurses as well. It is NOT unusual for a nurse to work full time in one hospital, and work part time or PRN (as needed) in another facility (hospital, clinic, satellite, etc).

BTW, the only Catholic hospital in my area belongs to a network of five hospitals, four of which are secular hospitals.
 
catharina said:
it has no real bearing on what you actually said.
Lovely that you have now explained what you might have meant to say
Sorry it took so many posts to bring out the facts.

It has every bearing on what others brought out in reply to the issue being discussed.
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This butcher’s bloody hands would not touch my wife nor my newborn.
 
Someday’hopefully in the not too distant future future generations will look back at this era with disbelief,revulsion,and condemnation,much the same way we do at the slaughter of the innocents in the holocaust by the nation of Germany.
Those who were active participants,those who were complicit,those who were apologists,and those who were silent,will be regarded with contempt,and their memories shamed

There are those here who believe that all will not be judged equally,and that may be true for certain tribes in the Amazon,but there is not one blood drenched abortionist who has not SEEN the word of God in the faces and signs of the pro-life people who represent Christ’s Face to the world.There is a Biblical passage wherein Christ illustrates the difference BUT He also indicates that once having heard the Truth that ALL will be judged equally.
 
Rence said:
It should already be a given that God is not going to judge one person, who is Cathlolic and knows his/her doctrine well, the same way as another person, who was born, raised and has been faithful to another religion. How would that be possible or even fair?

The above implies that a non-Catholic cannot be held the to same standard or expectation that a Catholic will simply because they lack the knowledge and understanding that a Catholic is supposed to have. I would go so far as to say that a Catholic who has not been catechized, because his/her parents dropped the ball and did nothing to nurture Catholicism in this person beyond baptism, also falls within the category. How can this person be blamed for not knowing or not understanding, when all their lives they haven’t been spiritually nurtured?

So it’s unfair to expect all these other religions to conform to the strict guidelines of Catholics. They have their own religion, and if they are faithful to it, do not know the rules of the Catholic Church, by no fault of their own.

So, with regards to Catholic Hospitals, again, they’re probably better off if they just grant privelidges to practicing Catholics and make them sign morality contracts. If they’re not going to do that, then they can expect that their staff will be doing things they don’t approve of elsewhere.

This of course, would probably trickle down to nurses as well. It is NOT unusual for a nurse to work full time in one hospital, and work part time or PRN (as needed) in another facility (hospital, clinic, satellite, etc).

BTW, the only Catholic hospital in my area belongs to a network of five hospitals, four of which are secular hospitals.
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You seem to have missed seeing E502’s statement in Post # 32.
You are NOT saying what she said.
You are attempting to explain what she might have meant -
but you are not saying what she said.

This is what she said:
"He will not judge us by equal standards."

That statement is untrue.

E502 might have meant to say something else;
she might have intended to express her thinking more clearly;
but the quote above is what she actually said in Post # 32, word for word.

The quote is simply and fully UNTRUE.
God is God.
God’s standard is God’s standard.

Perhaps rence, you can now read Post #33 and the posts following it;
Then maybe you’ll be able to understand the reasons why E502’s words were erroneous.

Simply, Catholics are not allowed to “invent” theology,
even with the best intentions.

Again, God’s standard is singular. You know that, don’t you?
 
catharina said:
You are NOT saying what she said.
You are attempting to explain what she might have meant -
but you are not saying what she said.
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You’re right. I’m NOT saying what she said. I’m saying what I say.
I am attempting to explain what I mean, not what someone else says.
And I think Elizabeth understands what she means to say and communicates it well, or at least I understand her 🙂

Though I do feel Elizabeth and I probably share the same views regarding reasonable expectations of Catholics and non-Catholics. Obviously, one can’t be expected to live up to the expectations of the Catholic Church if one is faithful to another denomination. So to say that God will judge everyone the same is pure speculation. Not only do we not know how God will judge another person, but the CCC says they can still be saved regardless of their denomination if they have sought out Jesus. And I know plenty of Baptists who love Jesus as much as any Catholic even though the moral standards of Baptists are different from those of Catholics 🙂
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Actually, no. He will not judge us by equal standards. He will judge us individually according to the knowledge that each of us had, and had access to, the ability of our minds to grasp those ideas and apply them, the separate opportunities we did and didn’t have to exercise that free will, etc. A Native American or Australian Aborigine, a convinced Jew, a convinced Hindu, a convinced Muslim or Buddhist, will not be judged by the same standards applied to a Catholic who grew up in the faith, had excellent catechesis, had access to the sacraments, who could read, etc. There’s absolutely nothing negatively “relativistic” about this.
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This is how I was raised and taught in Catholic grammar school, Catholic high school, Catholic college and Catholic university. I agree Elizabeth. 🙂
 
Rence said:
You’re right. I’m NOT saying what she said. I’m saying what I say.
I am attempting to explain what I mean, not what someone else says.
And I think Elizabeth understands what she means to say and communicates it well, or at least I understand her 🙂

Though I do feel Elizabeth and I probably share the same views regarding reasonable expectations of Catholics and non-Catholics. Obviously, one can’t be expected to live up to the expectations of the Catholic Church if one is faithful to another denomination. So to say that God will judge everyone the same is pure speculation. Not only do we not know how God will judge another person, but the CCC says they can still be saved regardless of their denomination if they have sought out Jesus. And I know plenty of Baptists who love Jesus as much as any Catholic even though the moral standards of Baptists are different from those of Catholics 🙂
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We can not invent “things” about God.
Yet you spun off e502’s statement with no attempt to correct her earlier mis-statement.
If you can understand “what she means to say” then you can read minds, I guess.

No one has said thatwill judge everyone the same.
Clearly, some He will find guilty and some He will find cleansed.

Yet God does not hold SEPARATE standards for separate people.
To insist that He does is an error.
So re-invent the statements if you wish - but I know what E502 said in Post # 32.
That was and still is my issue with her. The error.

I’ll repeat:
“You are attempting to explain what she might have meant -”
and I surely don’t need the explanation. I doubt that anyone needs it.
 
;);):)I suggest you look up the differrence between Exegesis and eisegesis other wise its fruitless to continue the conversation with either of you.You can’t make Holy Scripture say what you want it to mean.I suggest that you speak to your parish priest and enrol in a good orthodox course of catechism and apologeticsYour rationalisations and verbal contortions must cause actual pain:):)…
 
Soutane said:
;);):)I suggest you look up the differrence between Exegesis and eisegesis other wise its fruitless to continue the conversation with either of you.You can’t make Holy Scripture say what you want it to mean.I suggest that you speak to your parish priest and enrol in a good orthodox course of catechism and apologeticsYour rationalisations and verbal contortions must cause actual pain:):)…
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Hi. Again, my guess?
You’re NOT addressing me!
 
catharina said:
Hi. Again, my guess?
You’re NOT addressing me!
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No sirree mam,just those who think Catholicism and Truth are a series of choices and that there will be different lines to the judgement seat.I so appreciate your support as double teaming is hardly sporting.You are in my prayers and thank you once again;)
 
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