Coming in and out of the Liturgy

[Stephentlig]

I’m not sure this is true and this is coming from someone who is new to the Byzantine rite. But in my local Ukrainian parish, one of the men said that they come and go from the Liturgy. Sometimes people will come in half way through. Sometimes people come around communion time and sometimes people people leave and go outside for a ciggerette in the middle of the Liturgy.

Is that true? and is it permitted or encouraged?

Pax
Stephen

 

[Cristiano]

I am sure that it happens and I am also sure that it is not forbidden. However, I seriously doubt that it is encouraged or even seen with approval.

Is smoking a cigarette more important than participating in the worship of our Lord through the Sacrifice at the Calvary?

I honestly would expect such a behavior from poorly instructed Latin Catholics, because I have seen it often. My assumption is that the average Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are usually more hard core than Latin Catholics when it comes to devotional practices.

 

[dcointin]

I’m Antiochian Orthodox, and we have a similar problem with people arriving half way through the Divine Liturgy. I’ve also noticed the same thing when I’ve attended other Orthodox parishes in the area. Our priest strongly discourages this, and has announced that if people don’t arrive by the Gospel that they shouldn’t commune, but the problem continues. I’m honestly not sure about people leaving to smoke and returning though. So I can at least say the former is an Orthodox problem as well, not just a Catholic one.

 

[Hesychios]

In temple worship there is a lot more freedom of movement, but that would be inside the temple. Generally one sees this in a setting without pews. Worshipers will move from icon to icon during services, lighting candles and crossing themselves. (We must not forget that people have to leave to relieve themselves, and more often than not I see mothers with young children and old men doing that.)

Going out to grab a cigarette just seems sinful to me, like running out to munch on a bag of peanuts.

Some of this may hearken back to earlier days in the little villages, when some of the temples were too small and the communities tended to be poor. It would be common for people to stand outside during the liturgy even in the worst weather and squeeze in when they could to venerate the icons.

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[ConstantineTG]

I’m not sure this is true and this is coming from someone who is new to the Byzantine rite. But in my local Ukrainian parish, one of the men said that they come and go from the Liturgy. Sometimes people will come in half way through. Sometimes people come around communion time and sometimes people people leave and go outside for a ciggerette in the middle of the Liturgy.

Is that true? and is it permitted or encouraged?

Pax
Stephen

My and my wife joke about this. Because Filipinos are known to be habitually late for anything and everything. But we come 5 minutes before Liturgy and we’re the first ones in. More than half will arrive after Liturgy has begun until its halfway. So I tell her that Ukrainians are very similar to Filipinos who are always late I wonder if the traffic in K’iev is as bad as in Manila

Seriously, I think the spirituality, the approach and understanding to Liturgy is different. Its not odd in Divine Liturgy that people may not be doing what everyone else is doing with Liturgy. Some may be moving about reverencing icons or lighting candles. That is why at certain points of the Liturgy, the Deacon will call upon the attention of the people so that all would focus on what’s going on at the altar.

 

[thirddec]

I honestly would expect such a behavior from poorly instructed Latin Catholics, because I have seen it often. My assumption is that the average Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are usually more hard core than Latin Catholics when it comes to devotional practices.

MMMMH a tad presumtuos and based on what evidence hmmmm

Even the phrase Latin Catholics shows a certain lack of knowledge as the Latin Catholics in the Roman Catholic church ( even if I personally disagree with their continual push to turn every Roman Catholic Mass into Latin and away from the vernacular ) are a very devout bunch. Or weren’t you aware of this very traditionalst group of Roman Catholics making the term Latin Catholic somewhat ambigious now.

I’m guessing this behaviour of lateness and lack of reverence is more cultural than related to denomination.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I had the same story from a close friend who is Russian Orthodox–including the cigarette story. It probably has happened at least a few times, but I have a feeling it’s also something of an ‘urban legend’ that has grown with repeating.

 

[Cristiano]

MMMMH a tad presumtuos and based on what evidence hmmmm

Even the phrase Latin Catholics shows a certain lack of knowledge as the Latin Catholics in the Roman Catholic church ( even if I personally disagree with their continual push to turn every Roman Catholic Mass into Latin and away from the vernacular ) are a very devout bunch. Or weren’t you aware of this very traditionalst group of Roman Catholics making the term Latin Catholic somewhat ambigious now.

I’m guessing this behaviour of lateness and lack of reverence is more cultural than related to denomination.

I think that you are quite confused. The term Latin Catholics has nothing to do with the use of the Latin language during the Liturgy. Latin Catholics are not a subgroub of the Roman Church. Latin Catholics are all the members of the sui juris Latin Church. I understand that the Latin Church is also referred to as the Roman Church, but I think that is really a consequence of adapting a protestant terminology.

I agree with you that the impact is more cultural than Church related; however most of the westerners (the west is main culprit of the recent poor cultural habits) are members of the Latin Church and that is why I assume that in average the Eastern Churches should be a little bit more immune by the lack of reverence.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think that you are quite confused. The term Latin Catholics has nothing to do with the use of the Latin language during the Liturgy. Latin Catholics are not a subgroub of the Roman Church. Latin Catholics are all the members of the sui juris Latin Church. I understand that the Latin Church is also referred to as the Roman Church, but I think that is really a consequence of adapting a protestant terminology.

Isn’t it Roman Church and Latin Rite? Also I don’t think Roman is just protestant terminology. Even the Vatican would reference itself as the Roman Church.

 

[twf]

Constatine:
Actually, I think technically it is Latin Church and Roman Rite…the two primary expressions of the mass are the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and the Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite. That being said, the term “Roman Church” is more widely employed than “Latin Church”, at least in English. Technically the Roman Church is the Diocese of Rome…AFAIK.

 

[Cristiano]

Isn’t it Roman Church and Latin Rite? Also I don’t think Roman is just protestant terminology. Even the Vatican would reference itself as the Roman Church.

I am not saying that Roman is just a protestant terminology. Now it is used in some documents by the Vatican too, and that it is the reason why I said that it is an adaptation.

This article from the New Advent gives a definition of Latin Church and Roman Rite. However, I think that today even the Vatican sometime uses terms Roman and Latin as synonyms for the definition of the Church.

 

[Stephentlig]

So yeah I guess it must be a cultural thing then. ( now I’m gonna go off topic ) Does it ever bother anyone that the Liturgy is always in Ukrainian? or would they like to see a return to Church Slavonic?

I like it in Ukrainian or Slavonic ( although sometimes would prefer English blush ).

Also, is there anyone here who does not understand Ukrainian or slavonic and yet has been attending the Ukrainian Liturgy over the years?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constatine:
Actually, I think technically it is Latin Church and Roman Rite…the two primary expressions of the mass are the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and the Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite. That being said, the term “Roman Church” is more widely employed than “Latin Church”, at least in English. Technically the Roman Church is the Diocese of Rome…AFAIK.

The Roman Rite when it refers to the Mass refers to the Mass itself. Such as Baptismal Rite, Confirmation Rite, etc. It doesn’t refer to the Liturgical tradition of the entire Church.

And you are right that the Roman Church is the Church in Rome. That is why every other Church whose patriarchate is Rome is a Roman Catholic Church. The same way that the Ukrainian Church is the Church in Ukraine. You don’t call the Church here in Canada as the Canadian Catholic Church. They are still under the Ukrainian Patriarch, thus they are Ukrainian Churches, as all Latin Rite Churches are Roman Catholic Churches

 

[ConstantineTG]

So yeah I guess it must be a cultural thing then. ( now I’m gonna go off topic ) Does it ever bother anyone that the Liturgy is always in Ukrainian? or would they like to see a return to Church Slavonic?

I like it in Ukrainian or Slavonic ( although sometimes would prefer English blush ).

Also, is there anyone here who does not understand Ukrainian or slavonic and yet has been attending the Ukrainian Liturgy over the years?

The common practice is to have 2 Liturgies, one in Ukrainian, another in English. At least here in Canada. St. Elias went all-English so that they will restore the tradition of Vespers, Matins and one Divine Liturgy per Sunday. Because if they will serve two languages, then they would have to do everything twice.

I don’t understand Ukrainian but English is widely available here in North America.

 

[vsedriver]

My and my wife joke about this. Because Filipinos are known to be habitually late for anything and everything. But we come 5 minutes before Liturgy and we’re the first ones in. More than half will arrive after Liturgy has begun until its halfway. So I tell her that Ukrainians are very similar to Filipinos who are always late I wonder if the traffic in K’iev is as bad as in Manila

If I were your priest one one Sunday, I’d delay starting Mass until the pews were filled. The next Sunday I’d instruct the ushers to not seat anyone coming late to service.

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I both enjoy the laxity in uniformity, some people make tons of metanies, some people make none. It’s usually about 10 or 15 minutes into liturgy before the church starts filling up. It’s annoying, and I agree with the person who said the pastor should try and discourage people from communing if it becomes habitual. Perhaps they should be told to come to vespers next Saturday evening as well. He who stumbles in prayer once, should pray again twice.

 

[Cristiano]

The Roman Rite when it refers to the Mass refers to the Mass itself. Such as Baptismal Rite, Confirmation Rite, etc. It doesn’t refer to the Liturgical tradition of the entire Church.

And you are right that the Roman Church is the Church in Rome. That is why every other Church whose patriarchate is Rome is a Roman Catholic Church. The same way that the Ukrainian Church is the Church in Ukraine. You don’t call the Church here in Canada as the Canadian Catholic Church. They are still under the Ukrainian Patriarch, thus they are Ukrainian Churches, as all Latin Rite Churches are Roman Catholic Churches

This is really what is going on:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“A German Catholic is not, strictly speaking, a member of the Church of Rome but of the Church of Cologne, or Munich-Freising, or whatever it may be, in union with and under the obedience of the Roman Church (although, no doubt, by a further extension Roman Church may be used as equivalent to Latin Church for the patriarchate).”

 

[dcointin]

I both enjoy the laxity in uniformity, some people make tons of metanies, some people make none. It’s usually about 10 or 15 minutes into liturgy before the church starts filling up. It’s annoying, and I agree with the person who said the pastor should try and discourage people from communing if it becomes habitual. Perhaps they should be told to come to vespers next Saturday evening as well. He who stumbles in prayer once, should pray again twice.

I’ve found the same variation in practice in my own parish, and the frustrating thing for me as a convert is that no one would give me direction lol! I asked when to I make metanias vs a bow vs crossing, how do I perform them, etc., and they just say oh watch the people around you. I still honestly have no idea on half of these things after six years!

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I’ve found the same variation in practice in my own parish, and the frustrating thing for me as a convert is that no one would give me direction lol! I asked when to I make metanias vs a bow vs crossing, how do I perform them, etc., and they just say oh watch the people around you. I still honestly have no idea on half of these things after six years!

Agreed. I usually followed what my spiritual father told me and what I was comfortable with.
My spiritual father told when metanies should be done, and then when they can be done. Then suggested the form he thought was best, and said most people do variations on that.

Even standing and sitting down is of variation amongst the faithful. Dcointin, I would suggest doing what you feel is comfortable. Always glorify the holy trinity, and always reverence the Theotokos. How you do that… is up to you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is really what is going on:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“A German Catholic is not, strictly speaking, a member of the Church of Rome but of the Church of Cologne, or Munich-Freising, or whatever it may be, in union with and under the obedience of the Roman Church (although, no doubt, by a further extension Roman Church may be used as equivalent to Latin Church for the patriarchate).”

The way we would refer to Churches is through their patrimony because in a place like Canada or the US where there are different liturgical traditions going on, what will the American Catholic Church be? Will it be liturgically Latin? Ukrainian? Melkite? Chaldean? Maronite?

You are right though that every Archdiocese and Metropolis/Archeparchy is technically its own Church. But we don’t refer to each one separately but identify them to which Church is their patriarchate.