Coming in and out of the Liturgy

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ConstantineTG said:
The common practice is to have 2 Liturgies, one in Ukrainian, another in English. At least here in Canada. St. Elias went all-English so that they will restore the tradition of Vespers, Matins and one Divine Liturgy per Sunday. Because if they will serve two languages, then they would have to do everything twice.

I don’t understand Ukrainian but English is widely available here in North America.
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I’d say Fr.Serge might do it in english here but because our congregation is wholly Ukrainian that the local Ukrainian community may not tolerate it being in English because what would be the purpose? seeing as there are little English speaking people there. Unless the congregation wished to brush up on their English but I doubt they’d need to. Attending the Divine Liturgy here for them is like stepping into a portal and getting a little piece of home.

I think some of my family members get confused as to why I attend the Ukrainian rite because I dont understand the language of the Liturgy, they can not understand how I like it. I dont know, no matter what language the Liturgy is in I like it. My soul seems to understand what my brain doesnt lol if that makes sense, and I enjoy the Liturgy immensely. I’d like to hear it in slavonic. now that would be great.

I’m unsure actually if my sons baptism is going to be in Ukrainian or English. What do you think? either way its all good, but we’d all have to respond in English. lol
 
ConstantineTG said:
The way we would refer to Churches is through their patrimony because in a place like Canada or the US where there are different liturgical traditions going on, what will the American Catholic Church be? Will it be liturgically Latin? Ukrainian? Melkite? Chaldean? Maronite?

You are right though that every Archdiocese and Metropolis/Archeparchy is technically its own Church. But we don’t refer to each one separately but identify them to which Church is their patriarchate.
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Do not ask me because I despise the term American Catholic (it smells of the heresy of Americanism) and also because I do not believe that there is any structure that could be considered the American Catholic Church.

I am a Catholic of the Latin Church living in the USA that attends Liturgies in the Latin Church, the Maronite Church and the Byzantine Church. I would define myself simply as a privileged Catholic.🙂
 
Stephentlig said:
I’d say Fr.Serge might do it in english here but because our congregation is wholly Ukrainian that the local Ukrainian community may not tolerate it being in English because what would be the purpose? seeing as there are little English speaking people there. Unless the congregation wished to brush up on their English but I doubt they’d need to. Attending the Divine Liturgy here for them is like stepping into a portal and getting a little piece of home.

I think some of my family members get confused as to why I attend the Ukrainian rite because I dont understand the language of the Liturgy, they can not understand how I like it. I dont know, no matter what language the Liturgy is in I like it. My soul seems to understand what my brain doesnt lol if that makes sense, and I enjoy the Liturgy immensely. I’d like to hear it in slavonic. now that would be great.

I’m unsure actually if my sons baptism is going to be in Ukrainian or English. What do you think? either way its all good, but we’d all have to respond in English. lol
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Same here. There is still some resistance to using anything other than Ukrainian. Sometimes at the cost of alienating those who are already born and raised here and who are not proficient with Ukrainian. You’d know a native speaker when he is with other native speakers, they’d speak their native language. What I see from our priests and even bishop who are born and raised here, they speak english to each other. Our parish’s administrator (I go to the Cathedral) is born and raised in Ukraine, but our bishop would speak to him in English because the Bishop was born and raised here, although he speaks Ukrainian and spent time in Ukraine.

If not English, then whatever the local language is. But its up to the Bishop. How healthy are the parishes in your area? For them to open up, they have to be motivated by the fact that they need to keep the parishes up and running and this would mean getting new parishioners who are not Ukrainians.

During Feast Days such as Easter, we’d do one bi-lingual Liturgy. The problem is that the Ukrainians would dominate the Liturgy and most of it will be in Ukrainian. Even if the priest and bishop would say the litanies in English, the response will still be in Ukrainian. Its supposed to be that if the priest says it in English the responses will be in English and if the priest says it in Ukrainian then respond in Ukrainian. But the choir does otherwise.
 
Cristiano said:
Do not ask me because I despise the term American Catholic (it smells of the heresy of Americanism) and also because I do not believe that there is any structure that could be considered the American Catholic Church.

I am a Catholic of the Latin Church living in the USA that attends Liturgies in the Latin Church, the Maronite Church and Byzantine Church. I would define myself simply as a privileged Catholic.🙂
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You are indeed privilege having access to so many of our Church’s traditions. You are Catholic in the true sense of the word.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Same here. There is still some resistance to using anything other than Ukrainian. Sometimes at the cost of alienating those who are already born and raised here and who are not proficient with Ukrainian. You’d know a native speaker when he is with other native speakers, they’d speak their native language. What I see from our priests and even bishop who are born and raised here, they speak english to each other. Our parish’s administrator (I go to the Cathedral) is born and raised in Ukraine, but our bishop would speak to him in English because the Bishop was born and raised here, although he speaks Ukrainian and spent time in Ukraine.

If not English, then whatever the local language is. But its up to the Bishop. How healthy are the parishes in your area? For them to open up, they have to be motivated by the fact that they need to keep the parishes up and running and this would mean getting new parishioners who are not Ukrainians.

During Feast Days such as Easter, we’d do one bi-lingual Liturgy. The problem is that the Ukrainians would dominate the Liturgy and most of it will be in Ukrainian. Even if the priest and bishop would say the litanies in English, the response will still be in Ukrainian. Its supposed to be that if the priest says it in English the responses will be in English and if the priest says it in Ukrainian then respond in Ukrainian. But the choir does otherwise.
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The parishes in my area? well at big feasts like Pentecost it can be packed. but in Sundays of ordinary time only about 10 people attend sometimes even less, thats not including the deacons and priest though.

Well the last thing I would want to do is cause upset amongst the Ukrainian Congregation on the day of Baptism which is on Pentecost. It is would just be difficult for both my wife and I and Godparents to respond in Ukrainian/Slavonic ( but its always in Ukrainian ). So I’m wondering how thats going to pan out so I’ve mailed Fr.Serge about it. Its not because I dislike the Ukrainian language I love it and in future would gladly attend any service in Ukrainian and have my wife teach my little one how to speak it but I just would feel out of place standing there not knowing what or how to respond lol.

Pax
Stephen
 
Spraznikom!
Stephentlig said:
But in my local Ukrainian parish, one of the men said that they come and go from the Liturgy.
Stephen
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My experience is limited to several Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Antiochian, parishes and one parish each of Melkite, Chaldean/Assyrian and Russian Byzantine Catholic almost only in No California, tho a couple of times on the road in other states.

It’s been my experience that the Greek Orthodox starts the Liturgy of the Catechumens with not a lot of folks having arrived and they continue to arrive on into the Liturgy of the Faithful. There seem to be a large number of the faithful arriving closer to the start of the Liturgy of the Catechumens in the Russian Orthodox, Antiochian, and the Melkite, and Chaldean/Assyrian. In our tiny Russian Byzantine parish the only time we have folks arriving after the start of the Liturgy is when they couldn’t find parking.

We apparently do have at least one or more persons in our small congregation who go in and out and move about during every Liturgy because the door opens and closes and footsteps are heard walking around in the hall. I’ve chosen to stand further up toward the Iconostasis so I don’t see that coming and going.

It is not my experience in the other Orthodox and EC/OC parishes I’ve been in that people come and go, only that they may come late but then they remain in the temple for the rest of the Liturgy, except occasionally, very occasionally I see parents take young children out and then come back, I assume for bathroom trips. I don’t see people wandering around inside the temple either, other than when they first come in and they venerate Holy Icons, and again after the conclusion of the Liturgy when they venerate Holy Icons again. (I’m not including when someone moves around opening windows or doors for ventilation which happens in my temple and the Russian Orthodox.)

The Greeks, Chaldean/Assyrian,and Melkites have pews so that may restrict people leaving once they have arrived. The Antiochian and Russian Orthodox don’t have pews but I still do not see them going in and out. We get visitors from a variety of other ECC and I’ve not seen any of them wander around during Liturgy in our temple, nor leave the temple and come back during Liturgy, nor have I seen Orthodox visitors to our temple do that. 🤷
 
5Loaves said:
Spraznikom!

My experience is limited to several Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Antiochian, parishes and one parish each of Melkite, Chaldean/Assyrian and Russian Byzantine Catholic almost only in No California, tho a couple of times on the road in other states.

It’s been my experience that the Greek Orthodox starts the Liturgy of the Catechumens with not a lot of folks having arrived and they continue to arrive on into the Liturgy of the Faithful. There seem to be a large number of the faithful arriving closer to the start of the Liturgy of the Catechumens in the Russian Orthodox, Antiochian, and the Melkite, and Chaldean/Assyrian. In our tiny Russian Byzantine parish the only time we have folks arriving after the start of the Liturgy is when they couldn’t find parking.

We apparently do have at least one or more persons in our small congregation who go in and out and move about during every Liturgy because the door opens and closes and footsteps are heard walking around in the hall. I’ve chosen to stand further up toward the Iconostasis so I don’t see that coming and going.

It is not my experience in the other Orthodox and EC/OC parishes I’ve been in that people come and go, only that they may come late but then they remain in the temple for the rest of the Liturgy, except occasionally, very occasionally I see parents take young children out and then come back, I assume for bathroom trips. I don’t see people wandering around inside the temple either, other than when they first come in and they venerate Holy Icons, and again after the conclusion of the Liturgy when they venerate Holy Icons again. (I’m not including when someone moves around opening windows or doors for ventilation which happens in my temple and the Russian Orthodox.)

The Greeks, Chaldean/Assyrian,and Melkites have pews so that may restrict people leaving once they have arrived. The Antiochian and Russian Orthodox don’t have pews but I still do not see them going in and out. We get visitors from a variety of other ECC and I’ve not seen any of them wander around during Liturgy in our temple, nor leave the temple and come back during Liturgy, nor have I seen Orthodox visitors to our temple do that. 🤷
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Thank you five loaves 👍
 
Don’t you just love it when someone of one culture judges another culture by your own standards? Just wonderful!!
 
ciero said:
Just read the responses on this thread…I think my intention is quite obvious. 😃

Folk being VERY judgmental again. When they have no idea of what they’re talking about.
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its late here in Ireland and the eyes are falling out of my head you’ll have to take me by the hand and point me to one lol.
 
Ciero: I believe it was primarily Eastern Christians who were criticizing people “coming and going” during the liturgy…so I’m not sure what you mean?
 
twf said:
Ciero: I believe it was primarily Eastern Christians who were criticizing people “coming and going” during the liturgy…so I’m not sure what you mean?
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Easter Christian or not…these folks are converts and do NOT understand or appreciate the culture that comes along with being members of these churches. It comes back to the idea were all really Roman Catholics but with a funny mass.
 
ciero said:
Easter Christian or not…these folks are converts and do NOT understand or appreciate the culture that comes along with being members of these churches. It comes back to the idea were all really Roman Catholics but with a funny mass.
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:confused: Are you talking about the coming and going? Part of the culture?

I am a cradle BC of many years and this idea is alien to me. I asked cradle EOs (ROCOR in a region with numerous immigrant Russians and other Slavic immigrants) and they also think the idea is daft. As one said: if I were milling about as a kid in church, the nearest baba would have grabbed me and given me a stern talking to.

The culture that we understand is this: you come early, stay till the end even if there is an extra service after the liturgy, and did your milling about before or after. During the liturgy you do the liturgy, attentively. That applies also, with the help of parents and grandparents, to all children beyond infancy. Yes, there are men outside (having a smoke in the old days) but these are not church goers: they are guys who drive the family to church but won’t set foot inside.

Now I see much more laxity, at least in the EO church I visit. This laxity is promoted by some as part of the culture and a wonderful part of Eastern phromena. Many of the promoters are converts. Some even hint at the Latinization among the prompt, enduring, and attentive participants. I am skeptical.
 
Stephentlig said:
I’m not sure this is true and this is coming from someone who is new to the Byzantine rite. But in my local Ukrainian parish, one of the men said that they come and go from the Liturgy. Sometimes people will come in half way through. Sometimes people come around communion time and sometimes people people leave and go outside for a ciggerette in the middle of the Liturgy. :confused:

Is that true? and is it permitted or encouraged?

Pax
Stephen
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Permitted? In many parishes, yes.
Encouraged? Not anyplace I’ve ever heard of.
Tolerated by long-suffering priests? In most of the places it frequently occurs.

Fr. James doesn’t like people leaving for the restrooms during liturgy. His request for people to use the basement ones rather than the fellowship hall ones has basically been ignored… what’s he gonna do? Lock them?
 
Cristiano said:
I think that you are quite confused. The term Latin Catholics has nothing to do with the use of the Latin language during the Liturgy. Latin Catholics are not a subgroub of the Roman Church. Latin Catholics are all the members of the sui juris Latin Church. I understand that the Latin Church is also referred to as the Roman Church, but I think that is really a consequence of adapting a protestant terminology.

I agree with you that the impact is more cultural than Church related; however most of the westerners (the west is main culprit of the recent poor cultural habits) are members of the Latin Church and that is why I assume that in average the Eastern Churches should be a little bit more immune by the lack of reverence.
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I was writing a bit tongue in cheek about the Latin Church; I knew exactly what you mean’t but as a relative recent newcomer to this Forum I was totally unaware how large the movement for Latinizing ( language ) within the Roman Catholic church which I don’t agree with but worse than that I can actually see why in places in the world this movement is growing and agree with them on many of their other concerns on doctrine. Sorry dont want to derail your thread. 👍
 
ciero said:
Easter Christian or not…these folks are converts and do NOT understand or appreciate the culture that comes along with being members of these churches. It comes back to the idea were all really Roman Catholics but with a funny mass.
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I enjoy the culture greatly but judging by the responses within this thread, I doubt coming and going from the Liturgy is cultural and is a bad habit? shrug In the Roman rite which spans across most of Europe, there are many different cultures though that behave differently to the Mass within the Roman rite itself so it does make one wonder if its cultural or not.

Speaking of whether or not its cultural I’m sure I read somewhere St.John Chrysostom himself in one of his homilies rebuke those who come late to the Liturgy.

I think most westerners find moving around the Church a bit strange because Vatican I declared that we must not practice devontionals during the Mass because the greatest feast is taking place at the Altar and thats where all of our attention should be.

Pax
Stephen
 
Stephentlig said:
I enjoy the culture greatly but judging by the responses within this thread, I doubt coming and going from the Liturgy is cultural and is a bad habit? shrug In the Roman rite which spans across most of Europe, there are many different cultures though that behave differently to the Mass within the Roman rite itself so it does make one wonder if its cultural or not.

Speaking of whether or not its cultural I’m sure I read somewhere St.John Chrysostom himself in one of his homilies rebuke those who come late to the Liturgy.

** I think most westerners find moving around the Church a bit strange because Vatican I declared that we must not practice devontionals during the Mass because the greatest feast is taking place at the Altar and thats where all of our attention should be. **Pax
Stephen
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In my experience, people moving around venerating icons, lighting candles, etc., takes place prior to and not during the eucharistic prayer.
 
dvdjs said:
:confused: Are you talking about the coming and going? Part of the culture?

I am a cradle BC of many years and this idea is alien to me. I asked cradle EOs (ROCOR in a region with numerous immigrant Russians and other Slavic immigrants) and they also think the idea is daft. As one said: if I were milling about as a kid in church, the nearest baba would have grabbed me and given me a stern talking to.

The culture that we understand is this: you come early, stay till the end even if there is an extra service after the liturgy, and did your milling about before or after. During the liturgy you do the liturgy, attentively. That applies also, with the help of parents and grandparents, to all children beyond infancy. Yes, there are men outside (having a smoke in the old days) but these are not church goers: they are guys who drive the family to church but won’t set foot inside.

Now I see much more laxity, at least in the EO church I visit. This laxity is promoted by some as part of the culture and a wonderful part of Eastern phromena. Many of the promoters are converts. Some even hint at the Latinization among the prompt, enduring, and attentive participants. I am skeptical.
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Agreed! I, too, am a cradle EC and never can I remember having behaviour like that encouraged, much less condoned during Divine Liturgy. Had my sister and I even tried something like that My Mom and aunts would have seen to it we wouldn`t have gotten too far.
 
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