Commandments should not be followed ...

[Teflon93]

The reason I was so interested in your answer is 1)because ella asked you so nicely many, many posts ago and you never answered her, and 2)because I’ve encountered those who believe in eternal security, but would conclude (wrongly) that since I’m now Catholic that I was never truly saved to begin with - since they can’t say I’ve lost my salvation without contradicting their theology.

Is the corollary true as well—do they believe that you are not saved simply by virtue of having joined the Catholic Church?

In other words, is joining the Catholic Church a mortal sin whereas becoming, say, a Methodist or a Lutheran would not be?

 

[BRB]

We worship Christ. He is the center, source, and summit of our faith

And if a Protestant does the same … would he be saved outside the Catholic Church ?

 

[BRB]

Is the corollary true as well—do they believe that you are not saved simply by virtue of having joined the Catholic Church?

In other words, is joining the Catholic Church a mortal sin whereas becoming, say, a Methodist or a Lutheran would not be?

Joining a Church does not insure salvation. Protestants love Catholics … and think all those who truely love and are disciples of Christ will be saved.

 

[Teflon93]

LutheranDK;3966637:

If you do good works because you believe that your good deeds MUST outweigh the evil deeds, or you’re doomed, you are NOT acting out of love of God. You are acting out of FEAR of the consequences of not doing it. So while you’re giving to charity, helping an old woman cross the street, visiting the sick, etc, you’re mentally keeping score: “Ok, Lord! That’s one more in my favor”
quote]

I’m not answering for Manny but for myself. This is a mischaracterization of Catholic thought. It isn’t about keeping score it’s about keeping the Lord’s commandment of love given in Jn 15:12 and summarized well by the same writer:
1 Jn 3:17 “But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?”

There is also Jude:

1: Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that** ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints**.
4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5: I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8: Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10: But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11: Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12: These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13: Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15:** To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him**.
16: These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.
17: But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18: How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19: These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: **And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24: Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, **
25: To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

We are to fear and love God—love His mercy; fear his Justice.

 

[trrocks03]

Abraham believed in the Lord and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his belief in Him) to him as righteousness.

I think that Abraham did indeed have faith in the Lord. But he also took his son and placed him on an alter to almost kill him. He did not just “believe” in God, he also did what God told him to do. Thats not “FAITH ALONE”. Thats “FAITH AND WORKS”.

 

[Teflon93]

Joining a Church does not insure salvation. Protestants love Catholics … and think all those who truely love and are disciples of Christ will be saved.

You might want to reread my question again.

I did not ask, “Do Protestants believe joining a church ensures salvation.”

As for Protestants loving Catholics, BRB…meet Moondweller. Moondweller, BFB.

The experience here in the Bible Belt is quite different. You can test it by crossing yourself at the next Protestant worship service you attend upon entering and exiting the pew.

If you’d like an even more dramatic test, bring rosary beads with you and pray with them prior to the start of the service.

 

[Teflon93]

I think that Abraham did indeed have faith in the Lord. But he also took his son and placed him on an alter to almost kill him. He did not just “believe” in God, he also did what God told him to do. Thats not “FAITH ALONE”. Thats “FAITH AND WORKS”.

Indeed, this passage of Scripture is simply completely unnecessary were Moondweller’s hermeneutic valid.

 

[BRB]

As for Protestants loving Catholics, BRB…meet Moondweller. Moondweller, BFB.

The experience here in the Bible Belt is quite different. You can test it by crossing yourself at the next Protestant worship service you attend upon entering and exiting the pew.

If you’d like an even more dramatic test, bring rosary beads with you and pray with them prior to the start of the service.

Is MD a Protestant … what Church ?? I’m not sure he has told us. At anyrate, anyone born again spiritually … would love all, w/o showing favoritism.

Again, belonging to Protestant or Catholic church does not insure our salvation. Only those who are ‘born again’ via H.S. will see the Kingdom …per teachings of Christ.

Re: rosary beads @ Protestant service yes, that will get you some looks… mainly curiosity. I don’t think you would be asked to leave. If a Catholic spoke in tongues @ a mainline Prot. service… now that would get some deacons coming over to suggest alternatives.

 

[BRB]

I’ve encountered those who believe in eternal security, but would conclude (wrongly) that since I’m now Catholic that I was never truly saved to begin with - since they can’t say I’ve lost my salvation without contradicting their theology.

On the otherhand, some Catholics will doubt your salvation was genuine before you entered the RCC.

There will always be doubters in both camps. But, you & Christ know what is reality for you. Don’t let the naysayers disturb your peace.

 

[LutheranDK]

I’m not answering for Manny but for myself. This is a mischaracterization of Catholic thought. It isn’t about keeping score it’s about keeping the Lord’s commandment of love given in Jn 15:12 and summarized well by the same writer:
1 Jn 3:17 “But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?”

And I agree! That is why I, as the Lutheran Churches also unanimously do (I am not counting those that are only nominally Lutheran, but de facto serves as propagandists for moral relativism and foul living), say that we are saved by Faith alone - the TRUE faith, which shows itself in works.

But the order of things is paramount here: Are we saved through faith AND works, or are we saved by the true faith, which also presents itself in works, ALONE?

 

[Teflon93]

And I agree! That is why I, as the Lutheran Churches also unanimously do (I am not counting those that are only nominally Lutheran, but de facto serves as propagandists for moral relativism and foul living), say that we are saved by Faith alone - the TRUE faith, which shows itself in works.

But the order of things is paramount here: Are we saved through faith AND works, or are we saved by the true faith, which also presents itself in works, ALONE?

Christ said we would be judged on our works, which stem from faith and grace. See Matthew 25.

The trouble is that we will not hear that “well done” until our service in this world has ended. It’s presumptuous in the extreme to presume salvation before this point.

 

[sandusky]

Are we saved through faith AND works, or are we saved by the true faith, which also presents itself in works, ALONE?

With great assurance, I say the latter.

 

[BRB]

Christ said we would be judged on our works, which stem from faith and grace. See Matthew 25.

It’s presumptuous in the extreme to presume salvation before this point.

A Christian has their salvation / spiritual rebirth [per words of Christ] when they first become a disciple. Christ fulfills the law for us, Christ merits our justification ( by grace ) before God the Father. And, the spirit proceeds from the Father & Son to the new disciple. ‘Apart from our works …lest any man boast.’

To say its presumptuous [in the extreme] to presume salvation before our deaths is misleading.

The Gospels teach the Good Shepherd actively/agressively maintains his flock. Many of us have Prodigal son events in our lives. What Christ has claimed for God … is not easily lost. Did not 11 of the original 12 make it to heaven ?

Scripture does teach us to be diligent and faithful til the end. Judas did not do so. Anyone can go back on their oath of discipleship to the Lord … free will is always a human option. If we are not true disciples …our branch in tree of life can be removed. But, it does appear that the majority of those who agree to discipleship are successfully shepherded in this life.

The judgement Christians undergo … is one where Christ acknowledges we were true disciples, and where rewards for our fruitful works are revealed to us.

Our fruitful works will merit us favor/heavenly rewards … but, they cannot replace the salvation grace of Christ on Cross. The minute we claim Christ and pledge discipleship … we pass from death to new life. It can only be lost if we deliberately chose apostasy and recant our oath of allegiance to our Lord.

To claim Christ lets his sheep go thru life w/o assurance of their salvations is heretical in the extreme. Did Christ not tell Peter, the thief on cross, and many others they were safely in his fold. How could Peter of been effective w/o such assurance ? How can you / I be effective disciples w/o this assurance of salvation ? Paul teaches this assurance of salvation is not just possible, but the norm.

To teach we can not have salvation assurance is cruel and not c/w Christ’s teaching. To say only ‘certain’ saints are assured of their salvation is not c/w Christ telling the thief he was headed to Paradise.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

To teach we can not have salvation assurance is cruel and not c/w Christ’s teaching.

Snippet from Assurance of Salvation?
Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

 

[BRB]

Snippet from Assurance of Salvation?
Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

Fabulous …
Tef and others here need to conform their theology with Church teachings …

 

[mikeledes]

You say God requires us to fulfill His “moral law.” (1) Requires this of us for what purpose?

To be under “the Law” means to be under the mastery of sin, to be in the flesh. Consequently, in this state, man is incapable of fulfilling the Law.

Romans 8:7

7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Since man in the flesh can do nothing pleasing to God and is thus not able to properly subject himself to the law of God, he can in no way obtain pardon from God on the basis of his own efforts, even through observance of the Law (i.e. works of the Law) and go from being ungodly to righteous in God’s sight (Romans 4). Even if he were to observe the precepts of the Law, this is a mere external observance, an observance *not *rooted in the right motive (i.e. love of God and neighbor) and is unable to observe it with this right motive because his heart is devoid of the love of God. This difference between external observance (i.e. the letter) versus observance rooted in the right motive (i.e. Spirit), is made clear by Paul:

Romans 2:28-29

**28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. **

Hence, a person under “the Law” can never become righteous in God’s sight through observance of the Law, because the Law can never give life (Gal. 3:21). It points to our sinfulness and condemns, but does not provide the means to escape our carnal state and spiritual predicament. Hence the need for Christ:

Romans 8:3-4

**3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. **

So we must turn to Christ in faith. By grace, we go from being ungodly to being righteous, from being under “The Law” to being under “The Law of Christ.” And hence, the Christian is not without the law of God:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

The law of Christ is the moral law of God expressed in a *new * form. It is a moral law because it deals with right and wrong and is observed as a standard of conduct:

James 1:25

25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

It is the “law of liberty” because, unlike “the Law”, those who are under it have been freed from the bondage of sin and, empowered by the Spirit, are thus free to observe it:

Romans 6:12-14

**12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. **

Galatians 5:13-14

**13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” **

The children of slavery are those who, being under “the Law”, are in bondage to sin and vainly attempt to free themselves through their own efforts. The children of promise are those who have faith and have been freed from bondage to sin by grace and now enjoy the freedom to serve God and one another in love, thus having the freedom to fulfill the Law of Christ. But fulfillment of the law of Christ is not optional for the Christian (Romans 8:12-13):

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body , you will live. **

“Putting to death the dees of the body” means using one’s body to fulfill the moral law of God as expressed in the law of Christ:

Galatians 5:16

**16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. **

It is the Spirit that empowers us to put to death the deeds of the body for it is through the Spirit that the love of God is poured in our hearts. Thus fulfillment of the Law of Christ is only possible for those who have the Spirit. Having been given this responsibility to fulfill the Law of Christ by walking in the spirit, we are also held accountable. Paul says that if by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body, we will live. James 2:12 says:

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by (W)the law of liberty.

In other words, you reap what you sow (Galatians 6:7-9):

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

God has given those who are in Christ the seeds necessary for sowing (2 Corinthians 9:8-11). Again, the Parable of the Talents perfectly illustrates this point (Matthew 25:14-30). The master (Christ) entrusted His slaves (Christians) with His possessions (spiritual gifts) and after a long time comes back (Second Coming) and settles accounts with them (judgement). Those who used (i.e. sowed) their talents (spiritual gifts) and produced a profit for their master (good deeds) entered their master’s joy (reaping/ eternal life). The servant that did not use his gift and was thus inactive (i.e. did not bear fruit) for the benefit (glory) of his master, was excluded, had his talent taken away, and was thrown into hell (i.e. cast into the fire). And we know that a person can be in Christ, be justified and not be productive and bear fruit (John 15:2, 2 Peter 1:8-9).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The judgement Christians undergo … is one where Christ acknowledges we were true disciples, and where rewards for our fruitful works are revealed to us.

Our fruitful works will merit us favor/heavenly rewards … but, they cannot replace the salvation grace of Christ on Cross.

That’s funny, because the judgement passage in Matthew 25 includes the righteous and the wicked before God’s throne and there isn’t any mention of rewards.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Teflon93]

Fabulous …
Tef and others here need to conform their theology with Church teachings …

My theology is the Church’s theology—I adhere to the Church’s wisdom, rather than shop for one which conforms to mine:

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022** Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death**, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

II. HEAVEN

1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face:598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599

There is a difference between claiming with certainty that one is saved and one will be saved and having hope of salvation.

Of course, you were just arguing my arrogance moments ago, and yet I am not so arrogant as to take for granted the need to continue to grow in holiness and refrain from sin.

You cannot type a post without refuting your prior posts, BRB.

 

[banjo]

And I agree! That is why I, as the Lutheran Churches also unanimously do (I am not counting those that are only nominally Lutheran, but de facto serves as propagandists for moral relativism and foul living), say that we are saved by Faith alone - the TRUE faith, which shows itself in works.

But the order of things is paramount here: Are we saved through faith AND works, or are we saved by the true faith, which also presents itself in works, ALONE?

In the Gospel of Matthew both John the Baptist (3:10) and Jesus (7:19) said that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Christ, at the end of the story of the Good Samaritan, told his listeners, “Go and do likewise.” Lk 10:37. The Apostle Paul instructed the Galatians “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” Gal 5:6, and Jas 2:17, 26 bluntly states that faith without works is dead. We are saved by God’s grace, we don’t earn salvation. Unlike some others posting here I believe we can reject this gift and lose salvation, so I would say we need faith and love. 1 Jn 3:18 “Little children, let us not love in word or speech but in deed and in truth” I think puts it well.

 

[moondweller]

I agree with you. Our only disagreement may be that I believe some of God’s adoptive children still fail to live by faith, and fall into sin, and therefore, still require “tutoring” toward the end that they are able to fulfill the Law of Christ.

You error in that (1) Paul specifically statesGal 3:25 "But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."Of course this referred only to the Jews, anyway. Gentiles were never under the covenant of Law/works (Rom. 9:4).

(2) The “tutor” is the Mosaic Law. It does not enable anyone to “fulfill” the law of Christ. Where is it stated that men are required to “fulfill” the law of Christ for salvation, anyway? If that was true then all men are still under the principle of law (for salvation) and Paul deceives us when he states that we (believers) are not under the principle of law but under the principle of GRACE (unmerited favor).1 Cor 9:21 "…to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.In context, Paul is merely saying that in taking the gospel to the world (both Jews and Gentiles) he, as an evangelist, out of selfless love for others, refrains from anything that would needlessly draw offense in order to win them to Christ. To be “under” the law of Christ is to do things like Christ, selflessly, out of love for others. IOW, not regarding oneself first or pridefully more important than others (see Phil, 2:3-8 as prime example). It is stated that the believer is under the law of Christ, not that he lives under requirement to fulfill the law of Christ that he might, in the end, merit salvation.Gal 6:2 "Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.Again, this is not a salvation verse. But merely stating the fact that believers fulfill the law of Christ (selflessness) when bearing each other’s burdens.

God’s moral precepts for man have not changed. It does not seem like a “spin” to me. It does seem clear that we are to keep God’s commandments. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15-16

What are these “moral precepts” that God demands of you to keep in order to be saved? What “moral precepts” did Adam fail to keep when he transgressed in the garden and plunged all his posterity into a life of sin and death? Are we back to the 10 Commandments again? Paul explicitly states that the the purpose of the Law (which included the 10) was not to justify any man (i.e., make him righteous before God), nor did it have the power to give life. But that the righteousness which God demands in respect to salvation is a foreign righteousness. That which is provided by God to the one who believes in Christ alone - Rom 3:22 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

2 Cor 5:21 “He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might (as the goal) become the righteousness of God in Him.”

Gal 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (dia nomou, no definte article, i.e., the principle of law) then Christ died needlessly.”

Phil 3:9 "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"Such divine righteousness is based on promise, not law, grace, not works.

As for, “if you love Me you will keep My commandments,” well, we’ve been all through that. No one has yet shown me where Jesus called the 10 Commandments “My commandments.” Plus, he says, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” He does not say “If you keep My commandments I will save you.” You’re spinning again, Guanophore.

there is at last the indwelling power of the HS, by whose ministry we are able to keep the commandments.

Where is it stated the ministry of the H.S. is to enable the believer to keep the commandments? It is stated, however, that the believer is to now walk in/by the Spirit (who indwells him) and he will not carry out the desire of the flesh:Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”

Perhaps I missed your reply to Teflon’s question. Do you think that the Kingdom of God is different from “eternal life”?

All who enter the kingdom of God are possessors of eternal life. The “kingdom of God” is a broad term which includes all that is holy, such as the holy angels and all the redeemed of mankind. The kingdom itself is not eternal life, but all men who inherit it have it.

When Paul says that people who engage in these sins will not inherit the Kingdom, does that mean something different to you than eternal life?

1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,…”

Gal 5:19-21 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."True believers are not named among those in 1 Cor. 6:9 but are the “washed,” “sanctified” and “justified” in verse eleven. Those sins listed in Gal. 5 are “deeds of the flesh” which believers can avoid by walking in/by the Spirit Who now indwells them. Paul separates believers from the unrighteous who “practice” (by nature, pattern of lifestyle) such deeds. They being “in the flesh,” which the true believer is not (Rom. 8:9). For instance:Eph 5:18 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,"This is an exhortation to proper behavior for the redeemed in Christ, not a condition (qualification) for salvation.

The problem with the legalistic mindset is that it interprets every exhortation in Scripture to the redeemed in Christ as a divine condition to be met in order to inherit salvation. Such a mindset cannot ever grasp GRACE. It kicks against the goads. The only way out for the person with such a mindset is to allow GRACE to grasp him (through faith). But few ever do.