OP = ‘Original Poster’ or somtetimes ‘Original Post’.Thanks for pointing this out. I am new to the site. I was wondering were some of my reply s went. Now I know.
is the OP - opposition. If so I hate to think myself as an opposition. We are fellow Christians, so how can we be opposed to each other.
craig
Ok.
If you agree with that point, then both of you are in error. The Sabbath was always spiritual to the Jews. In fact, there is no separation between spiritual and secular life for the Jews. Everything they did was part of their faith practice - clothing, food, activities, including the Sabbath.
This apparently is your belief, however, not all Christians beleive this way. Perhaps you believe that the ones who do not are not “true Christians”?
Part of the proof that some of those under the Law were saved by grace, through faith.
Your rendering does not change the facts, Craig. The early Church celebrated Sunday because Jesus rose from the dead on that day. They called the 8th day “The Lord’s Day” because of the appearances He made on that day. They were faithful Jews, and also celebrated the Sabbath in the synagogue with other Jews (until they were expelled in about 70 AD).
This is a broad, sweeping statement that does not apply to all the Jews. there were some Jews that did understand the Sabbath, and followed the commandments out of love for God, just as David did, who wrote the Psalm you posted.
I think this is a false statement. I don’t think the Sabbath was ever perverted. I think that people become perverted. Their observances and perversions had detracted from the meaning and purpose of the Sabbath. However, since the Sabbath was established by God, it is not possible for men to sully it, even by their bad behavior. Their perversions belong to themselves, not God’s creation.
Yes, this is certainly true of many sincere Christians, who have not yet entered fully into His rest.
He wanted the Romans and Galatians to understand that they did not need to become Jews to be good Christians, and that if they chose to do so, they would be responsible for keeping “the whole law”.
Yes, and this is what He has done, by guiding the church infallibly.
has anyone,lately or in the past,had a good look at the calendar or calendars at home or at work or other places like library or other offices - do they show the week starting on a Sunday or Monday - both are of course wrong - guess why - twinc
Thank you
You are right it was man who perverted the Sabbath, by their selfish acts.Amen Craig - no argument there and I love your sincerity and the charity in your posts. Interestingly, I’m also am between 45 and 50 - grew up in the jewish faith, came to faith in Christ in an evanglical setting being baptized in that “tradition” and then through the drawing of the sacraments (eucharist and confession), study of scripture leading me intellectually to believe in apostolic succesion, and study of history of the earliest christians validating and supporting core Catholic doctrines, I became a Catholc (though my family did not).
Hi Brian
Scripture references to gathering on the "first day of the week"
The mosaic law was still in effect, it was the custom of all rabbis to teach in the synagogue on the Sabbath and Jesus was reaching out to the lost sheep of Israel - thus Jesus preached during his ministry at the Temple on the Sabbath. In addition, one might say he effectively did tell them this, indirectly, as the Sabbath was observed in worship at the Temple and he predicted the Temple’s destruction. In fact, it was following the destruction of the Temple (circa 70AD) that saturday Sabbath observance among jewish christians, effectively ceased (at least from what contemporaneous written history seems to indicate).
Yes, this was the Mosaic Law - the full understanding of Christ’s redemptive work and the new covenant was not made known, even to the apostles, until Pentacost when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Thereafter, as recorded in Galations, Hebrews and Acts there was continued discussion and confusion over the ongoing role of the mosaic law after Christ. This was resolved in the Jerusalem counsel when it was held that Gentiles need not follow the mosaic law and this concept of the new covenant superceding the mosaic law (fulfilled and made obsolete) is further developed in Hebrews and Galations.
Which verse? the Luke reference was following the buriel of Christ (the commandment in question was the commandment as understood “at that time”).
That is a very fascinating testimony.
I hope that I am very involved in my parish when I am 150. What truth is it you think they are missing?
Are they among those who think that one does not have to keep God’s commandments?
Do you think your family members are following the commandments of men?
Can you give an example?
Why did not any of the apostles, after Jesus, inform of the change in day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday?
Because it was not necessary, or appropriate. They had no problems celebrating the Sabbath in the synagogue or the temple up until the time they were expelled.
BTTG;6994925:
Your notions of what is “opportune” and appropriate for Jesus or the Apostles to say and do have very little value. It is not up to you to determine the times and seasons that God has fixed by His own authority.
There were many things that were not revealed to the Apostles until later:
John.14
[25] "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
[26] But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, **he will teach you all things, **and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John.16
[12] "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
You seem to be suffering from the misunderstanding that all of what Jesus had to say is in scripture. This is a false assumption.
Well, we read it differently.
But Paul had a habit of going first to the Jews in every town, and sought out the synagogues on Saturday.
What day of the week did Jesus rise? What day did He appear in the upper room?
It may be that, since Catholics find our rest in Christ over and above the seventh day of the week, that you think we are not keeping his commandments?
Gal.5]Would you provide me with the scripture verse for the above.
[3] I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.
Yes, but we are not under the Law. We are under grace.
Yes, it began in the Upper Room, where the Apostles coward in fear because they thought they would be next.
All the evidence indicates that they did, though John writes that he was 'in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which was the first day of the week.
There is a tutorial you can read. All you need to do is put the persons tagline:
Yes, it began in the Upper Room, where the Apostles coward in fear because they thought they would be next.
All the evidence indicates that they did, though John writes that he was 'in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which was the first day of the week.
There is a tutorial you can read. All you need to do is put the persons tagline:
Your correct, the reason they met in the upper room was fear of the Jews, they would be next. The Apostles were not meeting in the upper room on the first day of the week to worship. This was in a private residence, not in a temple. This meeting had already been pre-arranged by Jesus…Mat 26:18, Mark 14:15-16, Luke 24:33, John 20:19. This meeting would have taken place in the evening, as told by their trip.
Because Jesus appeared to them on the first day of the week several times, that now the first day of the week is the day one should set aside for the day of worship? Without being sarcastic, that’s a very long stretch of the imagination.
I don’t understand what you mean.
What evidence indicates?
That is a very fascinating testimony.
No, and I did not claim that they were. For the Aposltes, “worship” consisted of the Lord’s Supper.
No, actually. They just did not know what to do with themselves. The point is that they gathered, and Jesus appeared to them. It happened again on the week following. Is there any reason to believe that this pattern would not continue?
Is there some reason it should not be? It was the day they gathered to celebrate the Lord’s Supper. This was the aspect of the sabbatical service that was missing on Saturday.
The scripture is clear that they gathered daily. How is this a stretch?Without being sarcastic, that’s a very long stretch of the imagination.
I think this is because you have not been to a synagogue service. Try it sometime.
The early church fathers, and the historians that wrote in the first 300 years all indicate that the early church continued to observe the Sabbath with the Jews until they were ejected from the synagogues in AD 70.
No. However, the Sabbath is Saturday, and the Apostles celebrated the Lord’s Day on the first day of the week, because that is when He rose.
Paul preached every day of the week. He sought out the synagogues on Sabbath because he knew the Jews and God Fearing Gentiles would be there on that day.
Yes, and they also conducted baptisms on the first day of the week.
No. You called it “worship” because you have a deficient understanding of the nature of worship. You asked when the first day of the week started as a day of observation. It happened in the upper room. They were gathered in fear, and Christ appeared to them. the same thing happened the following week.
The pagans also have a deficient understanding of worship.
Well, we read it differently, don’t we?
it is interesting you notice this, and yet, you do the same with your Sabbatarian perspective.
Yet, you think all those who do not follow the Law of the Sabbath are disobedient to His commandment…
I do not understand what you mean by the following, please expand. “It was the day they gathered to celebrate the Lord’s Supper.” Thanks
Now we are getting somewhere. You are right!!! The early church ( God’s people) continued to observe the Sabbath with the Jews. Therefore, Sunday worship did not start at the day of Pentecost as other Catholics have eluded to. The Romans under Titus expelled the Jews from Jerusalem in 70 AD. What happened in the early AD300’s… Constantine.
I previously provided many verses that clearly indicates that the Lord’s Day is the Sabbath.
i’ve already demonstrated to you by scriputre and by historical record, that the Christians gathered together on Sunday (the Lord’s day) from the earliest years of the Church (when the temple still stood). It is not, as you suggest, something that started with Constantine in the 4the century.I do not understand what you mean by the following, please expand. “It was the day they gathered to celebrate the Lord’s Supper.” Thanks
Now we are getting somewhere. You are right!!! The early church ( God’s people) continued to observe the Sabbath with the Jews. Therefore, Sunday worship did not start at the day of Pentecost as other Catholics have eluded to. The Romans under Titus expelled the Jews from Jerusalem in 70 AD. What happened in the early AD300’s… Constantine.
If the Sabbath ended with the resurrection of Christ, why did the church continue for 300 years keeping the Saturday Sabbath.