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BTTG
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The church does not fulfill the obligation of the Sabbath (Saturday) Day rest.
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BTTG
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BTTG
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Robbinson
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guanophore
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Jesus institued the anamesis of His Body and Blood during the Passover meal. A few days later, he rose from the grave, and appeared to His disciples in the upper room. A week later, he came to them there again. They chose the first day of the week to observe The Lord’s Supper (the anamesis of the Body and Blood).I do not understand what you mean by the following, please expand. “It was the day they gathered to celebrate the Lord’s Supper.” Thanks
You are right, BTTG, the Christians gathered on the first day of the week as well as celebrating the Sabbath in the synagogue the day prior. This custom began on Resurrection Sunday, and has continued ever since. Jesus did not wait until the Sabbath to appear to them. They celebrated the first day of the week because they celebrated His resurrection.
But this is not related to the expulsion of the Christians from the synagogue. Both traditional Jews and Hebrew Christians were treated as Jews by the Romans. Rome did not distinguish Christianity as being separate from Judaism at the time.
Did you think he had something to do with the Sabbath? And what did you think was going on for the 160 years prior to that?
What made you think “the sabbath ended with Christ”?
Not all the Christians did observe Saturday Sabbath. This was a peculiarity of Jewish Christians. Converts from Paganism had no reason to observe Sabbath.
This why the Apostle wrote to them not to concern themselves with Hebrew customs.
Col.2
[16] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.
Rom.14
[4] Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.
[6] He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Yes, you have. But for the Christian, the Lord’s Day is the day He rose from the dead - the first day of the week.I previously provided many verses that clearly indicates that the Lord’s Day is the Sabbath.
What you have done is disregard the Teaching of the Apostle above, who clearly does not command the observance of the Sabbath.
Paul met with the disciples on the first day of the week:
Acts.20
[7] On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
The phrase “gathered to break bread” is a reference to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper (the Body and Blood).
1Cor.16
[2] On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.
The reason that the collection was set aside on the first day of the week was because that was the day that the believers gathered. We can see this in Ignatius of Antioch, the earliest Church Father to address this day of observance, when he states that Christian converts “have given up keeping the Sabbath and now order their lives by the Lord’s Day instead, the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to him [Christ] and his death.” (Letter to the Magnesians 9 [A.D. 107]).
So, if you really thought that Sunday observance began with Constantine, you are mistaken.
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guanophore
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Jesus taught that we were to celebrate the memorial of His sacrifice through the anamnesis of the Body and Blood. This is a memorial.
Baptism is the sacrament thruogh which we are joined to Him in His death and resurrection. Baptism is only celebrated once (one baptism for the forgiveness of sins) but the Lord’s Supper is celebrated at least weekly, on the Day of His Resurrection.
Yes, this was the Teaching of the Apostles. That is why they gathered at “broke bread” on the first day of the week. The Catholic Church has preserved the practices of the Apostles.
The significance was not in the meeting. The significance was that Christ appeared to them on that day, and again on the same day a week later. They decided they could expect Him to appear in their midst on the first day of the week.
No. I am saying that non-Hebrews who converted to Christianity had no reason to observe the Jewish Sabbath. They only gathered on the first day of the week to observe the anamnesis of the Lord’s Supper. They gathered on that day because that was the day of His resurrection.
You are quite right about this. It is Jesus who has fulfilled the Sabbath. Christians now find our rest in Him.
Heb.4
[1] Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it.
[2] For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers.
[3] For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath,
`They shall never enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4] For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”
[5] And again in this place he said, “They shall never enter my rest.”
[6] Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
[7] again he sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
[8] For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day.
[9] So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;
[10] for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.
[11] Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Christians enter the Sabbath rest through faith in Christ. He is our rest, and we cease from our labors.
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guanophore
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One must exercise some caution with the Catholic Encyclopedia, as it is not infallibe, and sometimes it contains errors.
What was changed was the “observance” of the day of rest. No one can change God, who is immutable, or His commandments.
You make such statements because you do not understand the manner in which God works through His One Body, the Church. These types of decisions are not of human origin, but also from God. This decision was made just like the one in the book of Acts, about instructions for the Gentile converts. As you will note, when James writes the decision of the Council, he writes “it seemed right to the Holy Spirit and to us”. This is how infallible decisions are made. It is the participation of the Holy Spirit in them that makes them infallible, not the human element. How can you say a decision that “seemed right the Holy Spirit” is from a “human hand”? Do you honestly believe that God is too weak to guide His church into “all Truth, as He promised”?
Even though God gave the authority to the church to bind and loose such things, the Church observes Sunday as the Lord’s day in honor of His resurrection. However, Apostolic faiths that were founded by the Apostles do observe a vigil from sundown on Sat.
And indeed there has been. However, since Paul encouraged the gathering of the disciples on the first day of the week, this practice would not be considered part of the that Apostacy. Ignatius confirms that this was the practice, in his letter to the Magnesians in AD 107.
There was no relationship between this cult and the observance of Sunday as the Lord’s Day. This observance began with the Apostles in the Upper Room on Resurection day. They had no exposure to Mithraism.
Can you give an historical reference for Constantine pressing his “pagan hordes into the Church”? This seems to be some sort of mythology that you have been taught that has no basis in actual historical fact.
I would like to see you produce a historical reference that Constantine changed the day of worship, also. This is also a common fantasy spun by Sabbatarians and other anti-Catholics that has no basis in historical fact.
I would like to see some historicall support for this also.
The fact is that the Apostles taught that “salvation is of the Jews”. Jesus was a Jew, and all His first disciples were Jews.
Then you should have no trouble producing it.
It is true that the rift between the Hebrew Christians and the Greeks that we read about in the NT was a difficult cultural situation to be managed. And it is also true that the Christians moved progressively away from Judaism. However, the Patriarchy of Jerusalem, which has always been occupied by a Palestinian Christian, did not continue to observe the Jewish Sabbath either.
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guanophore
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This is a sweeping generalization that is a sign of prejudice. Paul founded many faithful communities of Gentile Christians all over the Roman Empire. They were not at all idolatrous. They did gather on the first day of the week, though.
Acts.20
[7] On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them…
You are required to cite your source here on CAF Craig. This is one of the forum rules.
If you wish to post this anti-catholic fantasy based mythology, that is ok, because it is a discussion forum but you have to give us the website or the source.
One of Constantines major goals in facilitating the council of Nicea was to resolve the issue of the Sabbath. Have the empire observed Sabbath, and the other half, the Lord’s Day (resurrection Sunday). The effect was that most of the empire was closed for commerce on two days of the week. In the interest of improving the economy, he wanted the Church to choose one day, or the other, so that business could be conducted on the other day.
You were doing so well, and then…
Yes, Constantine had the vision, or so history says, however, he did took it as an omen that he would conquer if he used the cross. He did not become a Christian,a nd neither did his army. He had banners made with the cross, and had the cross painted on the shields.
A person cannot become a Christian by bein g “declared” to be so by an emperor, or anyone else. People become Chrisitans through baptism, so even if he had done such a thing, it would not have made them Christian.
He was zealous to build the Church out of love for his mother, who was a Christian (through baptism, not declaration).
I am sorry that you have been misinformed about history, Craig, but no one becomes Christian in a “block”. All persons who became Christians did so though baptism by a person authorized to provide this sacrament on behalf of the Church.
If your fantasy history were true, then this would also be true. However, no one was allowed into the Church without repentance and baptism, so people who were “pagan at heart” were not welcome.
Craig, love resides also in Truth, and if you really want to profess love to all, learning and adhering to the Truth would be a big help. Be loving by putting a stop to spreading these lies about the Catholic Church.
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BTTG
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Thank you for your previous reply.
Let’s take a look at the verse…
(Joh 20:19) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Please carefully notice what the apostle said, and what he did not say. Many have assumed that a religious meeting was held and a collection plate passed. This is not the…
Paul was writing special appeals to the churches in Asia Minor, because many of the Christians in Jerusalem were suffering greatly for lack of food and daily necessities. Paul asked the church at Corinth to gather food, clothing, etc., and store it up at home until he could send men to transport it to Jerusalem. The expression lay by him in store in the original Greek gives the clear connotation of putting aside at home. Even Sunday advocates agree to this.
saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain (Romans 15:2528).
field would certainly not be appropriate on Sabbath. In these verses, Sunday is identified once again as a day for secular activities and gives no indication of religious observance.
Was Ignatius a prophet? The Bible is the word of God.
with respect
craig
Let’s take a look at the verse…
(Joh 20:19) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
- The words in the verse explain why the disciples had gathered…" for fear of the Jews". It does not say they were gathered to observe the Lord’s supper. The frightened disciples had already learned that the tomb was empty, and they expected shortly to be charged with stealing away the body of Jesus. The disciples were not gathered in this upper room waiting for Jesus, for in Marks account he reveals that they totally rejected the testimony of Mary and the other disciples who brought word of actually seeing the resurrected Lord. Vs. 20 states that Jesus had to show his hands in order for the disciples to believe. Therefore, why would the disciples be gathering to the celebrate the “Lord’s Day” when they did not believe He had risen until He appeared to them in the room? They were fearful, depressed, and unbelieving. When Jesus did appear to them He was rebuking them for their lack of faith. ( Luke 24:36).
The Sabbath day (Saturday) of worship ( to honor God as our creator of all) , that was instituted at creation by our creator, before Jews were on this earth did not end with Christ.
In 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, Paul wrote: Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
Please carefully notice what the apostle said, and what he did not say. Many have assumed that a religious meeting was held and a collection plate passed. This is not the…
Paul was writing special appeals to the churches in Asia Minor, because many of the Christians in Jerusalem were suffering greatly for lack of food and daily necessities. Paul asked the church at Corinth to gather food, clothing, etc., and store it up at home until he could send men to transport it to Jerusalem. The expression lay by him in store in the original Greek gives the clear connotation of putting aside at home. Even Sunday advocates agree to this.
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There was no service held on the first day of the week. The gathering up and storing was to be done on that day. Why did Paul suggest that this work be done on Sunday, and what was involved in getting it done
First, the letter would have been shared with the church on the Sabbath when they were all gathered for worship. The first opportunity to do the work would be the next daythe first day of the week. Keep in mind that there was an apparent food shortage in Jerusalem, and the need was not primarily for money. Such famine conditions were not unusual in areas of the Middle East, as Luke reminds us in Acts 11:2830.
The church in Rome gives a clue as to the special needs of those suffering Christians. But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto...
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Here the apostle touches a tender spot in his eloquent appeal. The Roman Christians owed a great debt of gratitude to the mother church in Jerusalem that had sent teachers to evangelize them. Paul urges them to return carnal, or material, gifts in appreciation of the spiritual truths received from them. What kind of gifts did Paul have in mind It is very interesting that he describes it as sealing to them this fruit. The Greek word used here is karpos, which is the universal term used for literal fruit. It can also have the connotation of fruits of ones labor.
This throws light on Pauls counsel to the Corinthian Christians to do their work on the first day of the week, so that there be no gatherings when I come. Such work as gathering and storing up produce from garden...Was Ignatius a prophet? The Bible is the word of God.
with respect
craig
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BTTG
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The following verse doesn’t read as it is the Lord’s Supper.
When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten (Acts 20:11).
There are some very unusual things about this all-night meeting in Troas. First, it had to be a solemn, poignant occasion for the speaker and congregation, as well. In verse 25 Paul declared, And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
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It is obvious that this farewell meeting was held on the dark part of the first day of the week. There were lights in the room, and Paul preached until midnight. It is important to understand the Jewish way of reckoning...
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Genesis describes all the days of creation week in the same wayThe evening and the morning were the first day the evening and the morning were the second day, etc. In other words, the evening always comes first in the day.
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Incidentally, Pauls missionary companions, including Luke, who chronicled the highlights of the carefully scheduled voyage, manned this boat. It is very significant that they would not go out to sea until the Sabbath was over on Saturday night. Toiling at the oars and sails would have been no more proper for a holy day than Pauls twenty-mile walk across the isthmus on Sunday morning. Neither Paul nor his fellow travelers would have indulged in those secular activities on Gods holy...Paul did not even preach a sermon ( bible reads that he had a speech) when he had the opportunity of the falling of Eutychus and the restoration of his life.
Early Christians broke bread daily. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart (Acts 2:46).
It is only certain people that have taken this verse to interpret as the Lord’s supper.
I also point out in Acts 16:13 we have positive proof that Paul kept the Sabbath even when there was no synagogue and very few Jews. He was ministering in Greece, where there were only a few scattered Jews and no synagogue at all. What did he do on the Sabbath And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spoke unto the women which resorted thither.
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BTTG
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There is no mention at all about the day of worship. When you read the scriptures above and below this verse, Paul is talking about Jewish feast and festival days. Paul talks to the Galations about the same topic…(Gal 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (Gal 4:10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. (Gal 4:11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
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BTTG
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I apologize to all. I am new to this site. When I first was orientating myself with the site, I accidentally started 2 forums on the same topic… Ten Commandments.
Therefore, if you are interested in the 10 commandments, you will find additional discussions on the forum Non-Catholic Religions…10 commandments.
The last 2 threads that I posted, might be of particular interest.
searching the scriptures for truth.
craig
Therefore, if you are interested in the 10 commandments, you will find additional discussions on the forum Non-Catholic Religions…10 commandments.
The last 2 threads that I posted, might be of particular interest.
searching the scriptures for truth.
craig
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fhansen
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Of course-why would God command us to do something He didn’t want us to obey-or didn’t think we could obey?
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guanophore
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I don’t recall anyone here claiming they were?
You have no evidence to support this assertion about their expectations.
Again, I don’t recall anyone here claiming they were.
You asked when the custom of gathering on the first day of the week originated, and we have shown you. This is where it originated. You seem to be creating strawmen. A strawman in debate is when you make up a position that you assign to your opponent and then attempt to attack it.
No, and Catholics do not claim this either. The Apostles taught that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath.
So, why not take up the collection during the synagogue service on Sabbath? When you are brave enough, you will go to a Synagogue service, and you will see that there is a part of the liturgy that involves the bringing forth of gifts.
You are adding words to the Scriptures, Craig.
Then it should not be a problem for you to give us some documentation to that effect.
On resurrection Sunday, no there was not. However, the Church chose the first day of the Week to celebrate the Lord’s supper, because He rose and appeared to them first on that day, and again the week following.
The Early Christians adapted the synagogue service, inserting into it the Supper. The liturgy that has been preserved contains the basic elements of the synagogue liturgy to this day.
If the disciples were meeting on Saturday, why not set aside the contribution on that day?
Why do YOU think he mentioned the first day of the week?
Why has the collection for the poor been done during the liturgy from that day, until this, every first day of the week?
Craig, the letter was written to the Corinthians. They converted to Christianity from paganism. They had never observed the Sabbath, and the Apostles did not teach them to do so. The letters were read on the first day of the week, when the early Church gathered for the Lord’s Supper.
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guanophore
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Are you suggesting that setting money aside is “work”?
Yes, I have heard this drivel before from Sabbatarians. As if Paul was going to drag fresh fruits and vegetables off to Jerusalem? Hogwarsh, as my gramps used to say. Do you have any idea how much time it takes to get from Corinth to Palestine? For the price of a train of camels to haul the stuff, they could buy a whole herd of camels when they got to Palestine! No, they were taking money.
This is just another strawman, Craig. No one is arguing that it was a collection for the poor.
Now I am seriously wondering if you used to be posting under a different username.
I am beginning to realize the futility of this discussion. I think you really don’t want to know what history says about the Christian faith. Instead, you want to project your ideas back into the past, and ignore the facts.
He was a bishop who engaged in prophetic activity. However, a witness that is even more germaine to this discussion is Justin Martyr. HOwever, if you wish to ignore history so you can cling to your vain imaginings about Scripture, neither of their writings will be of use to you.
The Lord’s Supper was formed during the Passover, which was a feast. It was not disconnected from the regular meal until abuses began to emerge.
Are you creating another rabbit trail here? No one has suggested otherwise about the meeting…
Again, no one has suggested otherwise. Are you saying that “first day of the week” was not really the first day of the week?
You seem to be doing your best to avoid that he met with the disciples on the first day of the week.
Is that right? I wonder where you found that in Scripture. You mean our beloved physician is really not a physician after all ,but a boat captain?
So walking is a secular activity now? It seems to me that Jesus did quite a bit of walking Himself.
Matt.12
[1] At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
Maybe you think Paul and His companions were better Sabbath observers that Jesus and the 12?
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guanophore
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Hmmm. Sure sounds like they found their sabbath rest in Christ!
Really? Who are they?
I think this is just another strawman, Craig.
No one has claimed otherwise, Craig. It appears that Paul continued to celebrate Sabbath until his death, which is what one might expect of a Palestinian Jew, as were al the Apostles.
But he NEVER tried to make Gentiles into Jews, or enforce the Law of Moses, or impose sabbaths.
Exactly! Wouldn’t this be a dandy time to remind them to observe the Sabbath?
You seem to want to ignore the fact that “sabbath” is used in this passage.
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twinc
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Would anyone care to comment on the two calendars now in vogue and common circulation as to whether the week starts on a Sunday or Monday - especially the Catholic/Christian one that seems to suggest we should work on a Sunday and that Saturday is in fact the sabbath day - twinc
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guanophore
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No. The development of the Christian Calendar is too complex to get into on a commandments thread. In addition, it does not boil down to which day of the week, because to a Sabbatarian, that has no impact. Sabbatarians deny the Apostolic Teaching that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath.
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twinc
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lets just stick with the query/question and not get carried away with irrelevances - lets forget or momentarily ignore the Sabbatarians and ask how about you - does your week start on a Sunday or Monday - twinc
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