Commandments

[adrift]

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The Sabbath “day” was not a holiday. There were Sabbath holidays that were abolished at the cross, but not the Sabbath “day” of worship. It was the day that Jesus made Holy and Blessed before Jews even existed. How can it be a Jewish holiday, if the seventh ( Sabbath day) day and the 10 commandments were established before the Jews?

Your going to have to explain this to me. The ten commandments were given to the Jews.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

 

[BTTG]

Jesus chose to rise on the first day of the week, rather than the seventh. He chose to appear to His disciples sequentially on the first day of the week, rather than the seventh. they developed a pattern of gathering and looking for Him to appear on that day. If he did not want this, I am sure He would have let them know.

Actually, it was, and this was one of the reasons that the official change was made. In the first three centuries of the church, some Christians gathered on the Sabbath, and some on The Lord’s Day (Sunday). This was very disruptive to commerce as the faith spread, as half the Christians would not do work or business on the Sabbath, and the other half wanted Sunday to observe their faith. One of the main goals of Constantine in convening the Nicean council was his request to the Bishops that they CHOOSE ONE day to be a “holiday” during which the Empire would not do business, so that commerce would not be interruped on both days.

Because the Jews were the only custodians of God’s revelation on that point. Only they, of all the created peoples of the world, retained the commandment of God about the Sabbath.

I am not sure what “just a holiday” means to you, but to Rome, it meant that no commerce was done by those observing Sabbath as a Holy Day.

By your responses, and your knowledge, you know the truth…let it set you free.

God Bless

 

[adrift]

Is Sabbath Saturday?

From my understanding it really was Friday night to Saturday night.

 

[BTTG]

Is Sabbath Saturday?

From my understanding it really was Friday night to Saturday night.

Thank you, you are correct.

From your understanding, the Sabbath “was” , or “is” from Friday night to Saturday night?

 

[adrift]

Your going to have to explain this to me. The ten commandments were given to the Jews.
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I am still confused by this statement.

Originally Posted by BTTG
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. How can it be a Jewish holiday, if the seventh ( Sabbath day) day and the 10 commandments were established before the Jews?

 

[BTTG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTTG
.

**I stated : **The Sabbath “day” was not a holiday. There were Sabbath holidays that were abolished at the cross, but not the Sabbath “day” of worship. It was the day that Jesus made Holy and Blessed before Jews even existed. How can it be a Jewish holiday, if the seventh ( Sabbath day) day and the 10 commandments were established before the Jews?

**You replied…**Your going to have to explain this to me. The ten commandments were given to the Jews.

**My response **- The ten commandments are the law of God. Sin is the transgression of the law. Adam sinned and therefore transgressed - 1 John 3:8. Were there is no sin there is no law. Therefore, the 10 commandments were in affect at the time of Adam. Secondly, Abraham ( as we know before the Jews existed) was to obey the law… we read this is (Gen 26:5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." The “laws” or the Decalogue, or the 10 commandments.
Therefore, the 10 commandments were not only for the Jews. Jesus in the flesh kept the 10 commandments that His Father provided Moses with…(Joh 15:10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Jesus obeyed all of God’s 10 commandments, including the Sabbath. To be like Jesus, follow in His footsteps.

You stated.…Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.
Quote:
The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

My response - I have to go will conclude soon.

written with love

 

[adrift]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTTG
.

**I stated : **The Sabbath “day” was not a holiday. There were Sabbath holidays that were abolished at the cross, but not the Sabbath “day” of worship. It was the day that Jesus made Holy and Blessed before Jews even existed. How can it be a Jewish holiday, if the seventh ( Sabbath day) day and the 10 commandments were established before the Jews?

Thank you for your response. I would disagree however. Holiday I am sure you are aware is a corruption of holy day. As such, the Sabbath is a Holy Day. What do you mean that there were Sabbath holidays that were abolished? The commandment were not given before the Jews. Sin existed but that does not establish that the commandments existed. You don’t find the first three commandments. There were many gods. Not until the Jews were given the commandments was there a command to worship but one one God. Remember Rechael had her idols? Nor was there anything that said to honor your parents or keep holy any day. It says God made the day holy nowhere until the ten commandments is it commanded for the Jews to keep it holy. There is no Scripture that before than that they did. That Abraham kept God’s Law does not equate that they are the ten commandments. I do not see any mention of specifics of what laws are being referred too. In fact, it says commandments, ordinances and laws. Commandments and laws must be different things. The law often refers to the ten commandments but I don’t see how they could here. Do you find Abraham keeping Sabbath?

 

[adrift]

Deuteronomy 5:15

For remember that you too were once slaves in Egypt, and the LORD, your God, brought you from there with his strong hand and outstretched arm. That is why the LORD, your God, has commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

So the reason for the Jews observing the Sabbath is for the Jews alone.

 

[BTTG]

Deuteronomy 5:15

Quote:
For remember that you too were once slaves in Egypt, and the LORD, your God, brought you from there with his strong hand and outstretched arm. That is why the LORD, your God, has commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

So the reason for the Jews observing the Sabbath is for the Jews alone.

Hello

The verse is stating that since God brought Israel out of Egypt, this was another reason why the Israelites should keep the Sabbath day. Hence the word “remember”, as in don’t forget it is God’s work that delivered you ( Israel). If the Sabbath was only for the Jews, then the rest of the 10 commandments were only for the Jews as well???
The fourth commandment of the Sabbath points back to the creation week… take a read at (Exo 20:11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Now let’s read…(Gen 2:1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Now, this is interesting. If you take out the commandment of the Sabbath in the Law Moses received, you also take out the words " the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them". These words are the only words spoken of in which are found both the Name and the title of the Lawgiver. Furthermore, it is the only one of the 10 commandments that show by whose authority the law is given. If you take the Sabbath commandment away, then the word “God” in the first 2 ( Catholic), or 3 could be that of any “god (s)”.

As a side note the Catholic Catechism states…We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Before Jesus came in the flesh, what other “group”, gathered on the “day of the sun”?

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Thank you for your response. I would disagree however. Holiday I am sure you are aware is a corruption of holy day. As such, the Sabbath is a Holy Day. What do you mean that there were Sabbath holidays that were abolished?

My mistake, I should have said ceremonies of Passover, Unleavened bread, day of atonement, Pentecost and yearly sabbaths that were abolished at the cross. These were all separate from the Sabbath Day of worship.

The commandment were not given before the Jews. Sin existed but that does not establish that the commandments existed.

Ok, you say that sin existed before the Jews. What is sin? (1Jn 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
AND…(Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore, one has to know the law ( 10 commandments) , to know that he is committing a sin.

It says God made the day holy nowhere until the ten commandments is it commanded for the Jews to keep it holy.

We read… (Gen 2:3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Therefore, God “sanctified” or “made Holy” the seventh day, or the Sabbath day. God did not bless or sanctify the seventh day for himself, God is all ready Holy and blessed. God wanted man to keep the Sabbath-seventh day, Holy and bless Him since the beginning of creation.

Now read the Sabbath commandment…(Exo 20:11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

You see that God at creation blessed and made the day Holy, and the Sabbath commandment states that the Sabbath-seventh day is to kept holy.

Even before Moses received the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai, the Jews were to keep the Sabbath. We read this in Exo. 16, the story of the manna.

That Abraham kept God’s Law does not equate that they are the ten commandments. I do not see any mention of specifics of what laws are being referred too. In fact, it says commandments, ordinances and laws. Commandments and laws must be different things. The law often refers to the ten commandments but I don’t see how they could here. Do you find Abraham keeping Sabbath?

God commanded Abraham to keep the 10 commandments…(Gen 26:5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The word " my laws", is referred to as the Decalogue,. The Decalogue is the 10 commandments. If you take a look at the in this verse for the Greek word for " commandments" and the word for “laws” have different meanings.

You asked if “Do you find Abraham keeping Sabbath?”. In Gen.26:5, God states that Abraham did obey His voice and keep the commandments, statutes and laws.

Did you know that the “name”, or “character” of God is the 10 commandments that were presented to Moses?

 

[adrift]

Hello

As a side note the Catholic Catechism states…We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Before Jesus came in the flesh, what other “group”, gathered on the “day of the sun”?

written with love

I am interested where in the Catechism your quote come from. Your quote was so odd as to raise my suspicions that it is inaccurate.

II. The Lord’s Day

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174
Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the “first day,” the day of Christ’s Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the “eighth day” following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ’s Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord’s Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica)—Sunday:

    We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Sunday—fulfillment of the sabbath

2175
Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

    Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176
The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

 

[adrift]

ok, you say that sin existed before the jews. What is sin? (1jn 3:4) whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: For sin is the transgression of the law.
And…(rom 3:20) therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore, one has to know the law ( 10 commandments) , to know that he is committing a sin.

the law is known by nature. All you have to do is look at civilizations that do not have knowledge of the ten commandments. All of the commandments can be determined by for a lack of a better word nature. The one’s that you can’t are the first three. Now we number them differently so i refer to the way Catholics number them.

therefore, god “sanctified” or “made holy” the seventh day, or the sabbath day. God did not bless or sanctify the seventh day for himself, god is all ready holy and blessed. God wanted man to keep the sabbath-seventh day, holy and bless him since the beginning of creation.

i wasn’t clear. Nowhere until the commandments is man told to keep it holy. Show me where anyone in scripture does until the ten commandments .

even before Moses received the 10 commandments on mount sinai, the jews were to keep the sabbath. We read this in exo. 16, the story of the manna.

yes Moses was honoring the sabbath but name someone before the law giver who does.

god commanded abraham to keep the 10 commandments…(gen 26:5) because that abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

provide scripture that he kept sabbath.

the word " my laws", is referred to as the Decalogue,. The decalogue is the 10 commandments. If you take a look at the in this verse for the greek word for " commandments" and the word for “laws” have different meanings.You asked if “Do you find Abraham keeping Sabbath?”. In Gen.26:5, God states that Abraham did obey His voice and keep the commandments, statutes and laws.

the verse says that Abraham kept God’s laws and commandments. That would indicate two different things. The Decalogue was not given until Moses otherwise his ascending to the mountain and leaving the people make no sense. If they already had the commandments, why would they

did you know that the “name”, or “character” of god is the 10 commandments that were presented to moses?

I don’t know what you mean.

Your post was very hard to read since you didn’t use the quote feature.

 

[diggerdomer]

Does your sect not subscribe to the new creation that believers are in Christ?

Your question assumes that the Bible is a complete compendium of all Christian faith and practice, which is not the case.

In Scripture, we see that the early Christians gathered on “the Lord’s Day”(the first day of the week) to celebrate the breaking of the bread.

The observance of Sunday as a day of rest is part of the Catholic Sacred Tradition.

Sunday as a day of rest only came about in the 4th century. Catholics, and Catholic Sacred Tradition, existed before the 4th century.

 

[diggerdomer]

JOne of the main goals of Constantine in convening the Nicean council was his request to the Bishops that they CHOOSE ONE day to be a “holiday” during which the Empire would not do business, so that commerce would not be interruped on both days.

Reference for this? I’d never heard that reasoning before. I learned that Constantine convened the Council primarily to deal with the controversies called by the Arian heresy. I don’t think the Council of Nicaea taught anything about a day of rest (regarding business/commerce)…did it?

 

[diggerdomer]

The ten commandments are the law of God. Sin is the transgression of the law. Adam sinned and therefore transgressed - 1 John 3:8. Were there is no sin there is no law. Therefore, the 10 commandments were in affect at the time of Adam.

No, the 10 commandments were not in effect at the time of Adam. They were not in effect until they were given to Moses (and the chosen people) much much later.

Where in Genesis are the 10 commandments mentioned? Or where does the Catholic Church teach that Adam was bound by the 10 commandments?

 

[BTTG]

I am interested where in the Catechism your quote come from. Your quote was so odd as to raise my suspicions that it is inaccurate.

**My statement **- As a side note the Catholic Catechism states…We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

This is the website in which I located the above information:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

[BTTG]

No, the 10 commandments were not in effect at the time of Adam. They were not in effect until they were given to Moses (and the chosen people) much much later.

Where in Genesis are the 10 commandments mentioned? Or where does the Catholic Church teach that Adam was bound by the 10 commandments?

God commanded Abraham to keep the 10 commandments…(Gen 26:5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The word " my laws", is referred to as the Decalogue,. The Decalogue is the 10 commandments. If you take a look at the in this verse for the Greek word for " commandments" and the word for “laws” have different meanings.

What is sin? (1Jn 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
AND…(Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore, one has to know the law ( 10 commandments) , to know that he is committing a sin.

Do you find Abraham keeping Sabbath?". In Gen.26:5, God states that Abraham did obey His voice and keep the commandments, statutes and laws.

 

[BTTG]

the law is known by nature. All you have to do is look at civilizations that do not have knowledge of the ten commandments. All of the commandments can be determined by for a lack of a better word nature. The one’s that you can’t are the first three. Now we number them differently so i refer to the way Catholics number them.

i wasn’t clear. Nowhere until the commandments is man told to keep it holy. Show me where anyone in scripture does until the ten commandments .

yes Moses was honoring the sabbath but name someone before the law giver who does.

provide scripture that he kept sabbath.

the verse says that Abraham kept God’s laws and commandments. That would indicate two different things. The Decalogue was not given until Moses otherwise his ascending to the mountain and leaving the people make no sense. If they already had the commandments, why would they

I don’t know what you mean.

Your post was very hard to read since you didn’t use the quote feature.

 

[adrift]

**My statement **- As a side note the Catholic Catechism states…We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

This is the website in which I located the above information:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

I did find it in the post I quoted to you. :yup: I guess it seemed strange since it was plucked from a much larger portion of the catachism.

 

[Robbinson]

Do you find Abraham keeping Sabbath?". In Gen.26:5, God states that Abraham did obey His voice and keep the commandments, statutes and laws.

Craig - you keep repeating the same claim over and over - I’ve refuted your understanding of this passage. The commandments Abraham kept were the ones scripture shows us God gave him. To leave his people and venture to the land of Canaan; to trust in Him and his promises; to offer his son Isaac, etc. There is not suggestion in scripture or otherwise that the Sabbath commandment was given to Abraham or anyone else prior to being given to Moses at Mt. Sinai.

Do you think Abraham also kept the dietary laws (also not given to the jews until Mt Sinai)?

Blessings,

Brian