Commandments

[BTTG]

Yes, He only founded One Church, and it is Catholic. The writing of St. John, though, is one Revelation (without the 's"). It occurred also on Sunday. And, if at that time, while half the Church was still celebrating Sabbath, and half was not (around the year 100AD), if Jesus wanted to correct them, I have no doubt He could have done so in the midst of all these other warnings and reprimands. As a matter of fact, He has had 2000 years to correct the Church. One would think that he was not too weak or disinterested to get through to SOMEBODY!

The writing of St. John, though, is one Revelation (without the 's"). It occurred also on Sunday.

I do not understand what you mean by the above statement.

The Catholic Church states that God only founded One Church, which is the Catholic Church.

 

[BTTG]

Yes, God is serious about the Commandments. The keeping of the Sabbath is the only one of the 10 that He never specifically mentioned.

(Mat 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you think that Jesus rose from the dead by the power of man?

No

Do you think that He appeared to His Apostles by the commandment of men?

No

Do you think He allowed the temple to be destroyed, Israel scattered, and the Christians ejected from the synagogue by the will of man?

No

Now I understand… the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath Day, to now mean the Sabbath week rest of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

craig

 

[BTTG]

Yes, He only founded One Church, and it is Catholic. The writing of St. John, though, is one Revelation (without the 's"). It occurred also on Sunday. And, if at that time, while half the Church was still celebrating Sabbath, and half was not (around the year 100AD), if Jesus wanted to correct them, I have no doubt He could have done so in the midst of all these other warnings and reprimands. As a matter of fact, He has had 2000 years to correct the Church. One would think that he was not too weak or disinterested to get through to SOMEBODY!

You say that God has had more then 2000 years to correct the church. Israel as we know were God’s chosen people. How many years did God try to show His people the way. Yes, Jesus could have corrected the half that were not observing the Sabbath day. Just like Jesus could have corrected the Jews that did not believe He was the Messiah. Why He didn’t, we don’t know.

craig

 

[guanophore]

I do not understand what you mean by the above statement.

The Catholic Church states that God only founded One Church, which is the Catholic Church.

Yes. All of the letters documented in the book of Revelation were addressed to Catholic communities.

Sorry, I don’t buy that weak argument. There isn’t one thing in the context of Scripture, that His brothers coming to see Him were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers. There is a greek word for cousin and it was never used here. Why? Because it is meant to be a blood related brother or sibling.

I agree that there is not sufficient context in Scripture to show that Jesus was the only child of Mary. However, you are basing your conclusion on a false premise, which is why your conclusion is false. Scripture was never intended to contain a full compendium of the faith. Mary had no other children. She is a perpetual virgin.

Another very weak argument. How is it a false modern development when the Holy Scripture says "Joseph knew her not UNTIL Jesus was born"?? You can dance around that Scripture all you want, but you can't deny what is meant there. So are you telling me when "Adam knew Eve and bore Cain" that means Eve was always a virgin, even after "knowing" her husband and having a kid?

We don’t need to dance, or deny, my dear misguided brother Brandon. The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. All we deny is your personal interpretation of the Holy Text.

The purpose of the statement is to show that Joseph was not the earthly father of Jesus. Joseph never had sexual relations with Mary, and Mary had no other children.

You are denying the word of God if you say Joseph never knew (had sexual re Mary.

No, we are just denying your understanding of what the word means. The word “until” here, does not imply any activity after the fact. It is used the same way it was with regard to Michal, the wife of David, who “had no children until the day of her death”.

You seem to very hostile about this subject. Why is that? Why would it bother you that other Christians beleived they had received different information from the Apostles than what was given to you?

 

[guanophore]

(Mat 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is why the Catholic Church teaches all the faithful to seek and find their Sabbath in Christ, in whom we find our rest.

Now I understand… the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath Day, to now mean the Sabbath week rest of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

craig

It seems that you do not, Craig. The Catholic Church recognizes that our Sabbath rest is found in Christ. However, we receive also His teaching that the Sabbath was made for man, so we observe a day of rest on the same day that we gather to observe His resurrection, on the first day of the week.

 

[guanophore]

You say that God has had more then 2000 years to correct the church. Israel as we know were God’s chosen people. How many years did God try to show His people the way. Yes, Jesus could have corrected the half that were not observing the Sabbath day. Just like Jesus could have corrected the Jews that did not believe He was the Messiah. Why He didn’t, we don’t know.

craig

Because the people that chose not to believe in Him were not earnestly desiring to seek His will, as the Church does.

It was this same Church, which chose to observe Resurrection day, that formed your Bible, without which you would not know about Sabbath. So if you don’t trust God to lead them properly, as He said He would, then you have no reason to trust the contents of your Bible, either.

The Church did what she has done since the beginning, she prayed, fasted, and chose. She trust that God is able to make His will clear, in whatever means necessary, to prevent her from making an error.

 

[BTTG]

Because the people that chose not to believe in Him were not earnestly desiring to seek His will, as the Church does.

It was this same Church, which chose to observe Resurrection day, that formed your Bible, without which you would not know about Sabbath. So if you don’t trust God to lead them properly, as He said He would, then you have no reason to trust the contents of your Bible, either.

The Church did what she has done since the beginning, she prayed, fasted, and chose. She trust that God is able to make His will clear, in whatever means necessary, to prevent her from making an error.

As I mentioned from the beginning of this thread, there are many, many great people in the Catholic church, including those that have written the Bible through the inspiration from God.
Then there are sheep in wolves clothing.

This will be my last reply to you as your comments are becoming

For example:" The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics." AND " Scripture was never intended to contain a full compendium of the faith."

God Bless You

craig

 

[Robbinson]

As I mentioned from the beginning of this thread, there are many, many great people in the Catholic church, including those that have written the Bible through the inspiration from God.
Then there are sheep in wolves clothing.

This will be my last reply to you as your comments are becoming

For example:" The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics." AND " Scripture was never intended to contain a full compendium of the faith."

God Bless You

craig

Craig - in fairness to guanaphore, I haven’t seen anything uncharitable in his posts. I think his point re: written by Catholics for Catholics was that the early Christian Church was “Catholic” - so the apostles and other authors of scripture recorded the teachings of the apostles for the “Church” (which was the Catholic Church and remains so today).

It is also true that scripture was not intended to be the full compendium of faith. Not only does scripture not teach “scripture alone” (which ironically means that applying “scripture alone” to scripture that doctrien cant be true , it expressly talks about honoring the oral teachings and traditions and notes that not all of the teachings of Jesus were written down and notes in places that Paul preached orally things not covered in this epistles).

So - you might choose to cease replying, but I don’t think its fairly due to anything that guanaphore has written, other than his understanding of the truth (an understanding I share).

In love of Christ,

Brian

 

[guanophore]

This will be my last reply to you as your comments are becoming

For example:" The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics." AND " Scripture was never intended to contain a full compendium of the faith."

God Bless You

craig

Do you find this little fact shocking?

Your refusal to dialogue about the Truth does not change the Truth. It only means that you will not allow the Truth to penetrate your mind and heart. This is your perogative, and I commend you to it. May He who created you with the free will to turn away from Truth bless you in your journey.

 

[guanophore]

Craig - in fairness to guanaphore, I haven’t seen anything uncharitable in his posts. I think his point re: written by Catholics for Catholics was that the early Christian Church was “Catholic” - so the apostles and other authors of scripture recorded the teachings of the apostles for the “Church” (which was the Catholic Church and remains so today).

It is also true that scripture was not intended to be the full compendium of faith. Not only does scripture not teach “scripture alone” (which ironically means that applying “scripture alone” to scripture that doctrien cant be true , it expressly talks about honoring the oral teachings and traditions and notes that not all of the teachings of Jesus were written down and notes in places that Paul preached orally things not covered in this epistles).

So - you might choose to cease replying, but I don’t think its fairly due to anything that guanaphore has written, other than his understanding of the truth (an understanding I share).

In love of Christ,

Brian

I appreciate your feedback Brian. I depend upon my fellow members to point out when I have passed beyond the edge of the pale.

 

[BTTG]

=Robbinson;7032121]Craig - in fairness to guanaphore, I haven’t seen anything uncharitable in his posts. I think his point re: written by Catholics for Catholics was that the early Christian Church was “Catholic” - so the apostles and other authors of scripture recorded the teachings of the apostles for the “Church” (which was the Catholic Church and remains so today).

I agree that " the apostles and other authors of scripture recorded the teachings of the apostles for the" church. However, I do not agree that the “church” was Catholic. Is there anywhere else in scripture other than Mat 16:18, which the Catholic Church believes the catholic Church is the “Church”.

It is also true that scripture was not intended to be the full compendium of faith. Not only does scripture not teach “scripture alone” (which ironically means that applying “scripture alone” to scripture that doctrien cant be true , it expressly talks about honoring the oral teachings and traditions and notes that not all of the teachings of Jesus were written down and notes in places that Paul preached orally things not covered in this epistles).

would you please provide scriptural reference.

Thanks Brian

 

[guanophore]

I agree that " the apostles and other authors of scripture recorded the teachings of the apostles for the" church. However, I do not agree that the “church” was Catholic.

You may not realize this, but your lack of agreement does not change the facts.

Is there anywhere else in scripture other than Mat 16:18, which the Catholic Church believes the catholic Church is the "Church".

All references to “church” in the NT refer to the Catholic Church, which was the only Christian Church up until the Reformation.

Luke describes the Church as “kath holos” in Acts 9:31, and this is the descriptor that stuck.

would you please provide scriptural reference.

Thanks Brian

Since all the historical evidence points to the opposite, you would be incumbent to provide otherwise. Prove that it is NOT Catholic!

When do you think the CC started, if it was not in the upper room at Pentecost?

 

[BTTG]

can someone explain these quotes to me? Thank you

The following from the Catholic Encyclopaedia Vol. 4, p. 153 also confirms the deletion of the second Commandment and the change of the fourth. “The church, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath of the seventh day of the week to the first made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day.”

“The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the Church.” — Gaspare de Posso Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent.

The Council of Laodicea around A.D. 364 decreed 59 Canon laws. Here is the final law instituted by the Papal Church.
Canon XXIX: “Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” (Percival Translation).

“Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code (ten commandments) was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai…Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity–love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5)…The (Catholic) Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day…He (God) claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy…” The Catholic Encyclopaedia, vol. 4, “The Ten Commandments”, 1908 edition by Robert Appleton Company; and 1999 Online edition by Kevin Knight, Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.

 

[guanophore]

can someone explain these quotes to me? Thank you

The following from the Catholic Encyclopaedia Vol. 4, p. 153 also confirms the deletion of the second Commandment and the change of the fourth.

I am not sure what you mean by “delete”. No human can “delete” God’s commandments.

“The church, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath of the seventh day of the week to the first made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day.”

The change was when Christians would observe a day of rest.

God instituted the Sabbath. Just like everthing else He creates, only he can change it.

Christians keep Holy the first day of the week because it is The Lord’s Day - the day He rose from the dead. He has fulfilled the Sabbath, and it is in Him we find our rest.

“The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority.

Jesus is the fulfimment of the Law.

The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the Church.” — Gaspare de Posso Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent.

It is more accurate to say that observance as a day of rest was changed from the seventh day of the week to the first, in the light of His reseurrection.

The Council of Laodicea around A.D. 364 decreed 59 Canon laws. Here is the final law instituted by the Papal Church.
Canon XXIX: “Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” (Percival Translation).

This folllows the teaching of Paul to the Galatians, that Christians need not be circumcised, become Jews, or practice Judiasm. On the contrary, if Christians attempt to turn away from grace, and go back to the Law, they reject Christ, who purchased them with His own blood.

“Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code (ten commandments) was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai…Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity–love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5)…The (Catholic) Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day…He (God) claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy…” The Catholic Encyclopaedia, vol. 4, “The Ten Commandments”, 1908 edition by Robert Appleton Company; and 1999 Online edition by Kevin Knight, Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.

I think the wording is poor. It is not possible to “make the commandment”
refer to something other than what God defined. The Church does have the authority to observe the first day of the week as the Lord’s Day in honor of His resurrection.

 

[diggerdomer]

All references to “church” in the NT refer to the Catholic Church, which was the only Christian Church up until the Reformation. ?

No, there were many divisions in the Christian Church prior to the Reformation.

The most prevalent one is, of course, the Orthodox Church.

 

[BTTG]

No, there were many divisions in the Christian Church prior to the Reformation.

The most prevalent one is, of course, the Orthodox Church.

Thank you for the information and your honesty.

craig

 

[guanophore]

No, there were many divisions in the Christian Church prior to the Reformation.

The most prevalent one is, of course, the Orthodox Church.

The schism between East and West was not the result of changing the doctrine, like the Reformation division. It did not involve the creation of heretical doctrines.

 

[Robbinson]

Thank you for the information and your honesty.

craig

Craig - BTW, you private message folder is full (you’ve been busy!), so I can’t reply to your last two questions

 

[BTTG]

Craig - BTW, you private message folder is full (you’ve been busy!), so I can’t reply to your last two questions

Thanks Brian

I emptied folder.

craig

 

[diggerdomer]

The schism between East and West was not the result of changing the doctrine, like the Reformation division. It did not involve the creation of heretical doctrines.

Not quite. The division between Catholic and Orthodox had many reasons. The most important doctrinal issue is the role of the Pope (Bishop of Rome). That is, surely, a point of doctrine, right? All Catholic recognize and adhere to the authority of the Pope, right? Orthodox do not.

Right?