Common - but bad - Apologetic Arguments

[Della]

But it can be a very good apologetic if they understand the history of the N T.

There was a person on EWTN who said this was one of the bits of info pointed out to them that helped them into the church.

It dosen’t have to be a lengthy explaination, but just enough to point out the importance of the church in bringing the Bible to us. It is one of those ideas that make people stop and think, then realize what this means.

May God our Father give you great grace and peace.

This truth helped me enter the Church. Believe it or not, I’d earned a B. A. in Bible from an Assemblies of God Bible college and never learned that the Catholic Church gave us the canon. This point was glossed over or argued away by saying that God was the author of the Bible not any church. We were told that each separate “church” had its own copy of various books of the Bible which were compiled to form our present Bible, but that’s all. The fact that the Church did the sorting out of all texts with claims to being inspired was not mentioned except to deny the Church’s claim that the “apocraphal” books were truly God’s word. They danced all around the issue, but never landed on the simple truth that without the Catholic Church we would not have had our Bible, nor that the Church preceded the Bible, nor that there were Early Church Fathers who endorsed the Bible as put together by the Church, nor that most of the teachings of the early Church were oral not written, and I could go on and on about what we were not taught or what was deliberately skewed to keep the truth from us. Yes, it’s very important that people are told about this issue.

 

[JRKH]

Your first point hasn’t been discussed, so I’ll dive in with this one. :tiphat:

Actually, and as you know, there is no prohibition against making images in the Bible. Indeed, images were commanded to be made by God, such as the angels on the Ark of the Covenant and the viper held up on a pole when Israel was being plagued by snakes. Rather, images were not to be made to be worshiped as gods. The difference is huge and needs to be acknowledged by all who take the Bible for what actually says.

Exodus 20:4 contains a prohibition against images…
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

But that was not actually the thrust of my first point.
My point is really about literacy. At various points when the prohibition against images was in force (BC) the literacy rate was likely just as low as it was in the late Roman, or the Dark or the Middle Ages etc.
Therefore defending the use of statues, icons and Stained glass on the grounds of literacy just does not fly.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

This truth helped me enter the Church. Believe it or not, I’d earned a B. A. in Bible from an Assemblies of God Bible college and never learned that the Catholic Church gave us the canon. This point was glossed over or argued away by saying that God was the author of the Bible not any church. We were told that each separate “church” had its own copy of various books of the Bible which were compiled to form our present Bible, but that’s all. The fact that the Church did the sorting out of all texts with claims to being inspired was not mentioned except to deny the Church’s claim that the “apocraphal” books were truly God’s word. They danced all around the issue, but never landed on the simple truth that without the Catholic Church we would not have had our Bible, nor that the Church preceded the Bible, nor that there were Early Church Fathers who endorsed the Bible as put together by the Church, nor that most of the teachings of the early Church were oral not written, and I could go on and on about what we were not taught or what was deliberately skewed to keep the truth from us. Yes, it’s very important that people are told about this issue.

All very true. I think that the key to this argument MUST lie in it’s presentation. It must be handled in a way that does not cause a person to throw up defenses. At least not serious ones…

Peace
James

 

[Della]

Exodus 20:4 contains a prohibition against images…
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Obviously the thrust of this prohibition is against worshiping images, as I stated in my post. This point must be made clear to those who claim images were forbidden–a simplistic statement that obscures the truth.

But that was not actually the thrust of my first point.
My point is really about literacy. At various points when the prohibition against images was in force (BC) the literacy rate was likely just as low as it was in the late Roman, or the Dark or the Middle Ages etc.
Therefore defending the use of statues, icons and Stained glass on the grounds of literacy just does not fly.

Peace
James

Sorry, but images did help the illiterate, as did paintings, mosiacs, stained glass windows, etc. The fact that the Romans and Greeks made statues and other images supports the fact that many could not read/write. They were used to educate the masses and support their beliefs, just as they were used/are still used in the Church.

Think about small children who can’t read/write, either. But they can view statues, paintings, etc. Images definitely have an effect on their developing minds, hearts, and souls. They certainly did for me. Even though we had become Pentecostals, I still saw in statues images of the holy, the pure, the lovely, the things of God. This is but one reason why the Church in her wisdom did not ban images when this issue was raised very early on in Church history.

We need to educate our separated brethren who make these objections not hide from such issues or pretend they don’t matter, because the do matter–sometimes very much indeed.

 

[fred_conty]

This truth helped me enter the Church. Believe it or not, I’d earned a B. A. in Bible from an Assemblies of God Bible college and never learned that the Catholic Church gave us the canon. This point was glossed over or argued away by saying that God was the author of the Bible not any church. We were told that each separate “church” had its own copy of various books of the Bible which were compiled to form our present Bible, but that’s all. The fact that the Church did the sorting out of all texts with claims to being inspired was not mentioned except to deny the Church’s claim that the “apocraphal” books were truly God’s word. They danced all around the issue, but never landed on the simple truth that without the Catholic Church we would not have had our Bible, nor that the Church preceded the Bible, nor that there were Early Church Fathers who endorsed the Bible as put together by the Church, nor that most of the teachings of the early Church were oral not written, and I could go on and on about what we were not taught or what was deliberately skewed to keep the truth from us. Yes, it’s very important that people are told about this issue.

Since you’ve said this, that makes two people I know of that this made a strong impression on. I wonder how many more. I know it made a big impression on me when I started to learn the great story of the N T.

I could just imagine if I weren’t a Catholic, and I found out all about this what a big shock this would be. Although it was one for you too. And as you found out in a rather hidden way, and not a nice way, just think if more would find out the truth…in any way.

May the God of hope fill you with every joy.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Your first point hasn’t been discussed, so I’ll dive in with this one. :tiphat:

Actually, and as you know, there is no prohibition against making images in the Bible. Indeed, images were commanded to be made by God, such as the angels on the Ark of the Covenant and the viper held up on a pole when Israel was being plagued by snakes. Rather, images were not to be made to be worshiped as gods. The difference is huge and needs to be acknowledged by all who take the Bible for what actually says.

A Jew once answered me when I was discussing this. He said “yes God commanded certain images to be made. And only HE can do so. No one else has the authority to do so”

 

[fred_conty]

A Jew once answered me when I was discussing this. He said “yes God commanded certain images to be made. And only HE can do so. No one else has the authority to do so”

Well then I guess according to him we would have to tear down all the statues of dear ole George Washington and Abe Lincoln in our parks. We’ll start right away as soon as we can get Congress to move on it.

 

[Della]

A Jew once answered me when I was discussing this. He said “yes God commanded certain images to be made. And only HE can do so. No one else has the authority to do so”

Of course, he does not accept that Jesus was/is the Christ who established his Church to speak in his name. Besides this, God gave authority to many people down through the ages to speak in his name and to do what God wanted, such as Abraham, Joseph, Moses, the Prophets, etc. He is ignoring his own history and religious beliefs in his overly simplistic statement.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You wrote it exactly correctly, pointing out the Church’s role in bringing the Bible to us.

Thank you for not claiming that the Church wrote the Bible.

-Tim-

Ever go fishing? Sometimes you have to throw out your bait and wait.

I’m waiting.

 

[Della]

Ever go fishing? Sometimes you have to throw out your bait and wait.

I’m waiting.

Yes. As we engage in apologetics we cannot expect immediate results. Nor can we expect that people long entrenched in their misunderstandings, learned from parents and their religious leaders, will say, “Ah, I see that I, my family, my church and much of what I believed about the Catholic Church is wrong. I repent in sackcloth and ashes.” It just doesn’t happen like that. We can expect that many, if not most, will argue against what we present, perhaps even get angry, and that most will shrug off the truths we share with them to cling to what they learned or what makes them feel comfortable. Conversion is not our job, but that of the Holy Spirit. All we can do is present the truth in love, be open and kindly, and pray. We sow the seeds, but like the Sower in the parable we have to leave the harvest to God. Sure we can be understanding and patient and helpful, but in the end each person has to decide what they will believe and what they won’t–that is finally between them and God.

 

[TimothyH]

Yes. As we engage in apologetics we cannot expect immediate results. Nor can we expect that people long entrenched in their misunderstandings, learned from parents and their religious leaders, will say, “Ah, I see that I, my family, my church and much of what I believed about the Catholic Church is wrong. I repent in sackcloth and ashes.” It just doesn’t happen like that. We can expect that many, if not most, will argue against what we present, perhaps even get angry, and that most will shrug off the truths we share with them to cling to what they learned or what makes them feel comfortable. Conversion is not our job, but that of the Holy Spirit. All we can do is present the truth in love, be open and kindly, and pray. We sow the seeds, but like the Sower in the parable we have to leave the harvest to God. Sure we can be understanding and patient and helpful, but in the end each person has to decide what they will believe and what they won’t–that is finally between them and God.

Thank you. We also have to know when to shake the dust off our feet and walk away. Many are not able to do that but take it personally.

Frankly, I’m less concerned with Protestants becoming Catholic than I am with introducing Jesus to those who don’t know him.

1. What my life was like before I met Jesus.
2. How I met Jesus.
3. What my life is like now that I know Jesus.

That’s not apologetic but witness. Paul gives his witness three times in Acts of the Apostles - once even to a king! We can convince people that the Catholic faith is correct but it is an academic exercise until we are able to explain how it has changed our own life. The truth is that if you can’t explain how knowing Jesus has changed your life then your life probably needs to change.

1. I was addicted to many things.
2. I met Jesus in the words of the Bible and in the confessional when I made a 37 year confession.
3. I am now free of addictions - truly free to make up my own mind - not a slave to substances and behaviors, and I am at peace. There is healing in the confessional and peace in the Eucharist.

That’s my witness. Sorry to go off topic.



-Tim-

 

[Della]

Thank you. We also have to know when to shake the dust off our feet and walk away. Many are not able to do that but take it personally.

Frankly, I’m less concerned with Protestants becoming Catholic than I am with introducing Jesus to those who don’t know him.

1. What my life was like before I met Jesus.
2. How I met Jesus.
3. What my life is like now that I know Jesus.

That’s not apologetic but witness. Paul gives his witness three times in Acts of the Apostles - once even to a king! We can convince people that the Catholic faith is correct but it is an academic exercise until we are able to explain how it has changed our own life. The truth is that if you can’t explain how knowing Jesus has changed your life then your life probably needs to change.

1. I was addicted to many things.
2. I met Jesus in the words of the Bible and in the confessional when I made a 37 year confession.
3. I am now free of addictions - truly free to make up my own mind - not a slave to substances and behaviors, and I am at peace. There is healing in the confessional and peace in the Eucharist.

That’s my witness. Sorry to go off topic.



-Tim-

Being a good witness is also an apologetics “tool” for conversion of everyone God puts in our lives, be they Catholic, Protestant, non-Christian, whatever. We’re all human beings with experiences that we hold in common–which is why being a good witness is such a strong cord with which to draw people in. My conversion story has been featured in “This Rock” Magazine (now Catholic Answers Magazine) and in the monthly Coming Home Network newsletter. It’s far too long and complex to relate here–besides being a bit off topic.

 

[glendab]

Hello Della.

Being a good witness is also an apologetics “tool” for conversion of everyone God puts in our lives, be they Catholic, Protestant, non-Christian, whatever. We’re all human beings with experiences that we hold in common–which is why being a good witness is such a strong cord with which to draw people in. My conversion story has been featured in “This Rock” Magazine (now Catholic Answers Magazine) and in the monthly Coming Home Network newsletter. It’s far too long and complex to relate here–besides being a bit off topic.

yeah, but sometimes it isn’t. I remember one particular occasion when I really thought I had a good conversation going about God and the Church and then I started do exactly that - letting htem know what God had done for me specifically and it totally backfired. All of a sudden I was some kind of freak and not the kind of person this particular person was impressed by. Yeah, it went that sour. I felt totally rejected as a person on a personal level. I stuck my neck out and got smacked a bit. I learned a valuable lesson though - some don’t respond well at all the personal witness.

Glenda

 

[JRKH]

Obviously the thrust of this prohibition is against worshiping images, as I stated in my post. This point must be made clear to those who claim images were forbidden–a simplistic statement that obscures the truth.

Just so we understand one another - - I have no problem with images…
But again - that is not the thrust of my objection.

Sorry, but images did help the illiterate, as did paintings, mosiacs, stained glass windows, etc. The fact that the Romans and Greeks made statues and other images supports the fact that many could not read/write. They were used to educate the masses and support their beliefs, just as they were used/are still used in the Church.

Think about small children who can’t read/write, either. But they can view statues, paintings, etc. Images definitely have an effect on their developing minds, hearts, and souls. They certainly did for me. Even though we had become Pentecostals, I still saw in statues images of the holy, the pure, the lovely, the things of God. This is but one reason why the Church in her wisdom did not ban images when this issue was raised very early on in Church history.

We need to educate our separated brethren who make these objections not hide from such issues or pretend they don’t matter, because the do matter–sometimes very much indeed.

No argument from me on any of this. However, let me ask one question that I think will help my point.
What would you think is the comparative rate of literacy in 1400 BC vs 1400 AD?

Peace
James

 

[Della]

Just so we understand one another - - I have no problem with images…
But again - that is not the thrust of my objection.

I understand your objection. I simply think you are “giving in” to Protestant objections based on your feeling that discussing it won’t help. But that could be said of any teaching Protestants object to, so what do we do? Keep silent when we know the truth, and know that sharing the truth might help someone see that their misconceptions are simply that and not viable agruments as they seem to think?

No argument from me on any of this. However, let me ask one question that I think will help my point.
What would you think is the comparative rate of literacy in 1400 BC vs 1400 AD?

Peace
James

It hardly matters how many people have been illiterate at any point in history. My point it that imagery is a tool for teaching in any age. The prohibition was strictly against worshiping images not making them, per se–another point we cannot concede to Protestant sensibilities when we know the truth and have an obligation to share it–in love and as the Holy Spirit leads, of course.

 

[TimothyH]

Hello Della.

yeah, but sometimes it isn’t. I remember one particular occasion when I really thought I had a good conversation going about God and the Church and then I started do exactly that - letting htem know what God had done for me specifically and it totally backfired. All of a sudden I was some kind of freak and not the kind of person this particular person was impressed by. Yeah, it went that sour. I felt totally rejected as a person on a personal level. I stuck my neck out and got smacked a bit. I learned a valuable lesson though - some don’t respond well at all the personal witness.

Glenda

That exact thing happened to Paul in Greece as related in Acts 17. Many laughed at him and walked away.

-Tim-

 

[Della]

Hello Della.

yeah, but sometimes it isn’t. I remember one particular occasion when I really thought I had a good conversation going about God and the Church and then I started do exactly that - letting htem know what God had done for me specifically and it totally backfired. All of a sudden I was some kind of freak and not the kind of person this particular person was impressed by. Yeah, it went that sour. I felt totally rejected as a person on a personal level. I stuck my neck out and got smacked a bit. I learned a valuable lesson though - some don’t respond well at all the personal witness.

Glenda

Of course I don’t know what you shared, but yeah, sometimes it’s best not to get into such details when you are going over the basics with someone. Better to relate to their life experience than to go into our own. Witnessing for the faith and apologetics are definitely delicate operations that take tact, skill, and a lot of love and patience. I’m not saying you don’t have those qualities, but sometimes a person can seem so close but then one word will put them off. Even Jesus had that happen to him when he asked the rich young man to give up all his possessions and follow him. The young man didn’t want to hear it, even though it came from God himself. You never can tell how what you say will go over at any one moment in time. We’re only one in a line of those God is using to reach out to those we encounter. Even the rich young man may have become a Christian after Jesus’ resurrection–we simply don’t know because his story has no follow up in Scripture. So, don’t feel discouraged or like you did something “wrong.” Leave that person in God’s hands and keep on keeping on.

 

[JRKH]

I understand your objection. I simply think you are “giving in” to Protestant objections based on your feeling that discussing it won’t help. But that could be said of any teaching Protestants object to, so what do we do? Keep silent when we know the truth, and know that sharing the truth might help someone see that their misconceptions are simply that and not viable arguments as they seem to think?

Of course I am not suggesting we keep silent.
However - I don’t think I am “giving in” by suggesting that the “images as teaching tool” argument is flawed.

It hardly matters how many people have been illiterate at any point in history. My point it that imagery is a tool for teaching in any age.

AMEN - - yet there WAS a prohibition on making “Unto yourselves”, “graven Images” - unless specifically told to by God - in which case they weren’t made “unto yourselves”.

The prohibition was strictly against worshiping images not making them, per se–another point we cannot concede to Protestant sensibilities when we know the truth and have an obligation to share it–in love and as the Holy Spirit leads, of course.

Totally agree with this.

Peace
James

 

[glendab]

Hello JRKH.

Of course I am not suggesting we keep silent.
However - I don’t think I am “giving in” by suggesting that the “images as teaching tool” argument is flawed.

AMEN - - yet there WAS a prohibition on making “Unto yourselves”, “graven Images” - unless specifically told to by God - in which case they weren’t made “unto yourselves”.

Totally agree with this.

Peace
James

Actually this graven image stuff is kinda timely. For the past three weeks two JW’s have been coming here for discussion. I invited them in three weeks ago on a lark, and we’ve had some pretty good talks so far. Using stuff here and from other Catholic sources on the web have been helpful. This past Saturday, (that’s our “visit” day) we spent two hours talking! I couldn’t believe how long we talked until we looked at the clock and realized that much time had gone by. But at the end of it, I offered them a copy of the Parish Calendar with all it’s art, and said we had about 300 of them left this year and were busy getting rid of them all. I kinda thought they’d reject it because they aren’t supposed to take stuff from us outsiders and it is graven art too, but they took it and looked in it and thanked me. It is going strangely well. We’re stuck on a few points, but they asked about all our Sacraments so I told them what they are and that they are all in the Bible. They explained some of their equivalents, though they don’t have ordination or last rites or confirmation. They started to talk about their idea of the Eucharist, but we’re saving that for next Saturday. I’m planning of giving them another graven image of the Blessed Sacrament in a Monstrance on a prayer card I have that has an Act of Spiritual Communion on it. None of this would be possible if I never came here and got courage and knowledge from all the really big apologists here at CAF. Instead all I would’ve managed to do would be argue I guess. I’ve learned alot and it seems as if it may actually be paying off. I know how to respond accurately to their questions. Funky thing is they really are ignorant of what the Catholic Church really believes and teaches and that seems to be sparking their interest. They really don’t know except what they’ve been told and it really is myths and legends stuff. They actually thought we treated New Years as a holy day so I explained what the real Holy Day is. Oh well. I’ve said too much. Forgive my ramblings. Pray for them and me.

Glenda

 

[JRKH]

Hello JRKH.

Actually this graven image stuff is kinda timely. For the past three weeks two JW’s have been coming here for discussion. I invited them in three weeks ago on a lark, and we’ve had some pretty good talks so far. Using stuff here and from other Catholic sources on the web have been helpful. This past Saturday, (that’s our “visit” day) we spent two hours talking! I couldn’t believe how long we talked until we looked at the clock and realized that much time had gone by. But at the end of it, I offered them a copy of the Parish Calendar with all it’s art, and said we had about 300 of them left this year and were busy getting rid of them all. I kinda thought they’d reject it because they aren’t supposed to take stuff from us outsiders and it is graven art too, but they took it and looked in it and thanked me. It is going strangely well. We’re stuck on a few points, but they asked about all our Sacraments so I told them what they are and that they are all in the Bible. They explained some of their equivalents, though they don’t have ordination or last rites or confirmation. They started to talk about their idea of the Eucharist, but we’re saving that for next Saturday. I’m planning of giving them another graven image of the Blessed Sacrament in a Monstrance on a prayer card I have that has an Act of Spiritual Communion on it. None of this would be possible if I never came here and got courage and knowledge from all the really big apologists here at CAF. Instead all I would’ve managed to do would be argue I guess. I’ve learned alot and it seems as if it may actually be paying off. I know how to respond accurately to their questions. Funky thing is they really are ignorant of what the Catholic Church really believes and teaches and that seems to be sparking their interest. They really don’t know except what they’ve been told and it really is myths and legends stuff. They actually thought we treated New Years as a holy day so I explained what the real Holy Day is. Oh well. I’ve said too much. Forgive my ramblings. Pray for them and me.

Glenda

Best of grace in your continuing conversations.

Peace
James