Common Cups-How Long Do Indults Take?

[Aramis]

I don’t believe the Sacrament under the appearence of bread must be soaked in the Sacrament under the appearence of wine and then “carefully dried.” One species under the appearence of bread is reserved, period. It is then mixed with fresh wine at the LPG.

The current ukrainian praxis is to spoon the blood onto it.

What I’ve seen in ruthenian praxis is dipping & drying.

What I’ve read of other byzantine praxis is the same.

This is because the Blood, thus dried, mingles with the wine in the chalice, during the Liturgy of St Gregory (presanctified).

Byzantine praxis is always under both species, and by intinction.

 

[OhMalley]

The current ukrainian praxis is to spoon the blood onto it.

What I’ve seen in ruthenian praxis is dipping & drying.

What I’ve read of other byzantine praxis is the same.

This is because the Blood, thus dried, mingles with the wine in the chalice, during the Liturgy of St Gregory (presanctified).

Byzantine praxis is always under both species, and by intinction.

We don’t “dip and dry” in the Eparchy of Van Nuys to my knowledge. I seriously doubt they do that it in Pittsburgh or Parma either although I don’t really know. We repose the Blessed Sacrament under the appearance of cubes of bread. It is them co-mingled with fresh wine at the PSL.

Dipping and drying would be monumentally messy – even if you used a whole loaf. And it would be rather inapporpriate to cut-up His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

IN FACT during the DL the exact opposite happens. If not enough of the bread-based species is consecrated and they run out during communion (an emergency), un-consecrated bread is added to the remaining Precious Blood. While I am absolutely certain that is what happens in the parish I attend, I’m not at all sure it’s proper practice.

 

[Aramis]

Normative liturgical praxis is the same in both Catholic and Orthodox Byzantines…

Presanctified Liturgy

The service consists of Daily Vespers combined with additional prayers and communion. The communion bread has already been consecrated and intincted with the precious Blood and reserved at the previous Sunday’s Divine Liturgy. Unconsecrated wine is placed in the chalice. Local practice also varies as to whether or not this wine must be thought of as the Blood of Christ. The only practical effect of this variety is that the celebrant who must consume all the undistributed communion at the end of the service might or might not partake of the chalice when he communes himself.
orthodoxwiki.org/Liturgy_of_the_Presanctified_Gifts

 

[cknick]

I am very sorry this happened to you. Even if you were not tactful he should not have raised his voice. That’s terribly bad form.

Hang in there and re-double your prayers…

Thank you. It helps to hear I’m sorry, even if it’s not from the person themselves. I need to try to remember that it isn’t Jesus I’m upset with, and to not avoid doing my daily spiritual routine because I’m hurt.

I’ll try.

 

[cricker]

OP- I am sorry that you had to go through this. Know that you are not alone. I’ve been through a similar thing. I even had another priest on my side, but the pastor would not budge. Screamed many hurtful things at me. But I told myself then - and still do - that I primarily have a duty to be faithful to Rome and the Holy See. My allegiance is to the Holy Church and to the Seat of Peter. All else is second.

We must discern, and sometimes we must chose. I was terribly hurt as well … but remember that we are dealing with humans, complete with human foibles and frailties. We were not promised that they would be correct all the time - only the Church stands correct as promised by our Saviour. We must seperate the chaff from the wheat - and pray for that chaff.

Peace and blessings,
Cricket

PS - I rarely attend Mass at my parish anymore for that reason (pastor has gone on to ‘bigger and better’ innovations that make me too physically ill to attend.) I have not formally moved, as I am waiting to see if he is renewed next year (as pastor) or not, If so, I have no choice …

 

[otjm]

I am very sorry this happened to you. Even if you were not tactful he should not have raised his voice. That’s terribly bad form.

Good not to argue with him.

We had a pastor for a short time. He was mean and he verbally abused people in front of others. It was really horrible. One day he really tore into me (I was the one who had to knock on the sacristy door to wake him) and I very harshly returned the favor. Soon he was gone and my confessor reminded me that difficult times are opportunities to grow in Christ and that I had squandered one. He was right. Hang in there and re-double your prayers…

Different people have different ideas as to what it means to grow in Christ. The meek may inherit the earth, but I don’t recall that the meek are the only ones who follow, or grow, in Christ. You may have actually done him (and others after you) a favor. When dealing with a bully, it is the rare circumstances that cause the bully to change. Some have a sense of sin that any raising of the voice is sinful. However, there is unrighteous anger and then there is righteous anger.

 

[otjm]

Thank you. I think I’m just really hurt right now. It wil take some time.

I don’t mean to be rude, nasty or mean. But there is an old phrase about letting sleeping dogs lie. You chose to go kick the dog; you should not be surprised that you were bit. You did what you thought best. Lord, give me the patience to endure the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Wisdom. Usually in short supply when we make decisions; and if they are the wrong one, they often result in an increase in wisdom.

 

[OhMalley]

I don’t mean to be rude, nasty or mean. But there is an old phrase about letting sleeping dogs lie. You chose to go kick the dog; **you should not be surprised that you were bit. ** You did what you thought best. Lord, give me the patience to endure the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Wisdom. Usually in short supply when we make decisions; and if they are the wrong one, they often result in an increase in wisdom.

I don’t think that’s true. Human or not a priest should not lose his temper over something like this – even if the other person’s approach is not charitable and I suspect it was in this case.

 

[cknick]

OP- I am sorry that you had to go through this. Know that you are not alone. I’ve been through a similar thing. I even had another priest on my side, but the pastor would not budge. Screamed many hurtful things at me. But I told myself then - and still do - that I primarily have a duty to be faithful to Rome and the Holy See. My allegiance is to the Holy Church and to the Seat of Peter. All else is second.

We must discern, and sometimes we must chose. I was terribly hurt as well … but remember that we are dealing with humans, complete with human foibles and frailties. We were not promised that they would be correct all the time - only the Church stands correct as promised by our Saviour. We must seperate the chaff from the wheat - and pray for that chaff.

Peace and blessings,
Cricket

PS - I rarely attend Mass at my parish anymore for that reason (pastor has gone on to ‘bigger and better’ innovations that make me too physically ill to attend.) I have not formally moved, as I am waiting to see if he is renewed next year (as pastor) or not, If so, I have no choice …

I’m sorry that happened to you, too. I know what you mean by waiting it out and praying for a priest more faithful to the magisterium. I’m kind of thinking that way, too. He said he only has three years left with us. I suppose there will be many opportunities to grow in grace, and offer up sufferings, but there is a very dim light at the end of a long tunnel. Who knows, if we keep praying for these men during the year of the priest we’ll see some conversions. Wouldn’t that be the best??

 

[otjm]

I don’t think that’s true. Human or not a priest should not lose his temper over something like this – even if the other person’s approach is not charitable and I suspect it was in this case.

Re-read my post. The OP went in (and I dont refer to attitude - just factually) challenging the authority or perceived authority of the priest.

My guess is that the priest is in his 60’s to 70’s. Like it or not, the church is still to some degree infected with clericalism (and there is evidence that even some of the young priests are infected with a form of it). Clericalism in part holds to a variation of “Father knows best”. The priest has been trained, as part of his work on at least a Masters, in liturgy and its performance (and let’s not side track whether it was good, bad or ugly), and he has some whipper snapper coming in and telling him how to say Mass???

Of course the priest should not lose his temper. That goes without saying - no one should.

I wasn’t speaking about “shoulds”; I was talking about the scenario the OP was walking into. Read my second paragraph above, again. There are a whole lot of well trained people, in many areas, whose immediate reaction is going to be defensive. Note, I didn’t say all sleeping dogs would bite. But if you kick one (as in, go in and tell someone whose official training is greatrer than yours - ignoring the quality thereof), life experiences (or common sense, both of which often are in short supply in such situations) should indicate that one’s shins are highly exposed.

Of course people should not get angry when they are told they are doing something wrong. My response wasn’t about shoulds. It was about what too often actually happens.

 

[cknick]

This priest is in his 50’s. You were right in the fact that he said “Who are YOU and where do you get the authority to say what you are saying? You and I have issues if you think you can tell me what is correct, here, because your only reality is the internet. There is more to this than what is on the internet!”

Ouch!!!

 

[otjm]

This priest is in his 50’s. You were right in the fact that he said “Who are YOU and where do you get the authority to say what you are saying? You and I have issues if you think you can tell me what is correct, here, because your only reality is the internet. There is more to this than what is on the internet!”

Ouch!!!

Well, he was right. There is more than what is on the internet, since Rome when it promulgated the rules, did not do so primarily on the internet.

He just did not understand how prophetic he was…

He is not the first priest I have come across who did not “get it” about what priesthood is. Clercalism is not the same thing as being a shephard. and while I ahve met some over 50 who are true shephards, too many think their collar and the imposition of hands equated with wisdom.

 

[OhMalley]

Re-read my post. The OP went in (and I dont refer to attitude - just factually) challenging the authority or perceived authority of the priest.

My guess is that the priest is in his 60’s to 70’s. Like it or not, the church is still to some degree infected with clericalism (and there is evidence that even some of the young priests are infected with a form of it). Clericalism in part holds to a variation of “Father knows best”. The priest has been trained, as part of his work on at least a Masters, in liturgy and its performance (and let’s not side track whether it was good, bad or ugly), and he has some whipper snapper coming in and telling him how to say Mass???

Of course the priest should not lose his temper. That goes without saying - no one should.

I wasn’t speaking about “shoulds”; I was talking about the scenario the OP was walking into. Read my second paragraph above, again. There are a whole lot of well trained people, in many areas, whose immediate reaction is going to be defensive. Note, I didn’t say all sleeping dogs would bite. But if you kick one (as in, go in and tell someone whose official training is greatrer than yours - ignoring the quality thereof), life experiences (or common sense, both of which often are in short supply in such situations) should indicate that one’s shins are highly exposed.

Of course people should not get angry when they are told they are doing something wrong. My response wasn’t about shoulds. It was about what too often actually happens.

Yelling by a priest is unacceptable in this context. In fact it’s so bad it should actually be addressed.

The OP should not have expected this sort of treatment and I don’t believe she kicked anyone. I wince at the thought of some of the people our priests have to deal with – liturgical “experts” without the ability to think in a critical manner whose training consists of skimming the GIRM, RS and these forums yet the priest STILL should not have yelled. His position, influence and who he represents simply does not allow for that.

Yelling is not something I would expect (or accept) if I took a meeting with my pastor over a perceived abuse or irregularity. Not all priests are going to be bright and sunny in this sort of situation. More than a few will be cool even curt. But “yelling?” That’s unacceptable and it should be dealt with before it drives someone out of the Church.

 

[otjm]

Yelling by a priest is unacceptable in this context. In fact it’s so bad it should actually be addressed.

The OP should not have expected this sort of treatment and I don’t believe she kicked anyone. I wince at the thought of some of the people our priests have to deal with – liturgical “experts” without the ability to think in a critical manner whose training consists of skimming the GIRM, RS and these forums yet the priest STILL should not have yelled. His position, influence and who he represents simply does not allow for that.

Yelling is not something I would expect (or accept) if I took a meeting with my pastor over a perceived abuse or irregularity. Not all priests are going to be bright and sunny in this sort of situation. More than a few will be cool even curt. But “yelling?” That’s unacceptable and it should be dealt with before it drives someone out of the Church.

Well, I pretty much agree, with the exception that the OP “went where angels fear to tread”. What I was trying to say is that people in authority, by and large do not like to be corrected, and their responses vary by personality. Some will calmly discuss an issue, even though they may not like what you brought up. For the rest of them, things escalate from a cold smile and an immediate shut down to something this side of nulcear. I simply don’t think she should have been surprised; if she was, I would expect that it was due to lack of experience, which is a form of naivety. Naivety is not bad, or evil, nor does it make one less of a person. But it sure can lead to some awkward (to put it mildly) situations. She got one lesson, and it hurt quite a bit.

I am not a youngster, and over the years, I have learned somewhat to pick my battles. Some of that learning was at the cost of some skin. Too soon old, too late smart.

I was in the seminary once, and many have been the days I have rejoiced that was not my vocation. I am not naive enought to think that all was smiles and giggles pre Vatican 2. But since then, pastors have become more battle scarred from those on the left and the right, as people have become more aggressive about what they want, or feel is right, or thing is correct… some are reactive just becasue they have run out of patience for every critic and every critique tha comes down the pike. Some others just have not so nice personalities, something that may have been inherent, or may have been learned.

You are right; she didn’t kick “anyone”. Kicking the dog is a euphemism. She “kicked the dog”, and it bit her. Some people learn from their choices and the results they get from enacting them. Others don’t. Objectively she was correct. Subjectively, she will have to decide, the next time she observes that someone is incorrect in what they do, if and how she will approach them. Perhaps all that will be necessary is “tougher skin”. Perhaps a different approach will be used. Or perhaps she will choose to let “sleeping dogs lie”. That will be up to her.

 

[OhMalley]

Normative liturgical praxis is the same in both Catholic and Orthodox Byzantines…

Presanctified Liturgy

The service consists of Daily Vespers combined with additional prayers and communion. The communion bread has already been consecrated and intincted with the precious Blood and reserved at the previous Sunday’s Divine Liturgy. Unconsecrated wine is placed in the chalice. Local practice also varies as to whether or not this wine must be thought of as the Blood of Christ. The only practical effect of this variety is that the celebrant who must consume all the undistributed communion at the end of the service might or might not partake of the chalice when he communes himself.
orthodoxwiki.org/Liturgy_of_the_Presanctified_Gifts

Rather than wiki do you happen to have a document from Pittsburgh, Parma or Van Nuys that requires the drip and dry process?

 

[Aramis]

Rather than wiki do you happen to have a document from Pittsburgh, Parma or Van Nuys that requires the drip and dry process?

Document? No. Spoken word of past four pastors.

But the norm is intincted already, byzantine wide.

 

[Aramis]

Rather than wiki do you happen to have a document from Pittsburgh, Parma or Van Nuys that requires the drip and dry process?

I have looked around online, and found several references to spooning the precious blood onto the reserved logos:
faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/Gifts.html
(specifically refers to catholic uses, without reference to which particular churches)

goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/lentenliturgies
(Greek orthodox Archdiocese of America)

And an old reference, dated to 1908, of dipping in the Eastern Churches:
newadvent.org/cathen/04312d.htm
(under the heading Liturgy of the Presanctified)
I will quote from that:
Liturgy of the Presanctified

The Liturgy of the Presanctified is fitted into the general framework of St. Chrysostom’s Rite. It is usually celebrated on Wednesdays and Fridays in the first six weeks of Lent, and on all the days of Holy Week, except Maundy Thursday and Easter Eve which have the real Liturgy (of St. Basil). On other days in Lent there is no liturgical service at all. On the Sunday before more loaves (prosphorai) are used than otherwise. The same rite of preparation is made over all.* After the Elevation the celebrant dips the other prosphoras into the chalice with the spoon, and places it in another chalice in the tabernacle (artophorion) kept for this purpose.*
Italics mine.

Also can be read at books.google.com/books?id=dNAbQfIWE7EC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=liturgy+of+the+presanctified+gifts+prothesis&source=bl&ots=9YNBreg19l&sig=cMiCV_3nlkC0BJyHPA8RM8_rYt0&hl=en&ei=jydNStb4KYSysgPIt7jPBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=29 and at oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Constantinople%2C_Rite_of_(Byzantine_Rite

 

[OhMalley]

Document? No. Spoken word of past four pastors.

But the norm is intincted already, byzantine wide.

“Norm?” For the DL or PSL?

I’m fairly sure they don’t “dip and dry” the Blessed Sacrament in the Ruthenian recension in the USA.

 

[OhMalley]

I have looked around online, and found several references to spooning the precious blood onto the reserved logos:
faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/Gifts.html
(specifically refers to catholic uses, without reference to which particular churches)

goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/lentenliturgies
(Greek orthodox Archdiocese of America)

And an old reference, dated to 1908, of dipping in the Eastern Churches:
newadvent.org/cathen/04312d.htm
(under the heading Liturgy of the Presanctified)
I will quote from that:
Liturgy of the Presanctified

The Liturgy of the Presanctified is fitted into the general framework of St. Chrysostom’s Rite. It is usually celebrated on Wednesdays and Fridays in the first six weeks of Lent, and on all the days of Holy Week, except Maundy Thursday and Easter Eve which have the real Liturgy (of St. Basil). On other days in Lent there is no liturgical service at all. On the Sunday before more loaves (prosphorai) are used than otherwise. The same rite of preparation is made over all.* After the Elevation the celebrant dips the other prosphoras into the chalice with the spoon, and places it in another chalice in the tabernacle (artophorion) kept for this purpose.*
Italics mine.

Also can be read at books.google.com/books?id=dNAbQfIWE7EC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=liturgy+of+the+presanctified+gifts+prothesis&source=bl&ots=9YNBreg19l&sig=cMiCV_3nlkC0BJyHPA8RM8_rYt0&hl=en&ei=jydNStb4KYSysgPIt7jPBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=29 and at oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Constantinople%2C_Rite_of_(Byzantine_Rite

Any “dipping and drying” as you suggested earlier? Do you actually cut-up the Blessed Sacrament?!? I simply don’t see cubes being “dipped and dried” – or even “spooned.”

 

[cknick]

Well,** I pretty much agree, with the exception that the OP “went where angels fear to tread”. What I was trying to say is that people in authority, by and large do not like to be corrected, and their responses vary by personality. Some will calmly discuss an issue, even though they may not like what you brought up. For the rest of them, things escalate from a cold smile and an immediate shut down to something this side of nulcear. I simply don’t think she should have been surprised; if she was, I would expect that it was due to lack of experience, which is a form of naivety. Naivety is not bad, or evil, nor does it make one less of a person. But it sure can lead to some awkward (to put it mildly) situations. She got one lesson, and it hurt quite a bit.**I am not a youngster, and over the years, I have learned somewhat to pick my battles. Some of that learning was at the cost of some skin. Too soon old, too late smart.

I was in the seminary once, and many have been the days I have rejoiced that was not my vocation. I am not naive enought to think that all was smiles and giggles pre Vatican 2. But since then, pastors have become more battle scarred from those on the left and the right, as people have become more aggressive about what they want, or feel is right, or thing is correct… some are reactive just becasue they have run out of patience for every critic and every critique tha comes down the pike. Some others just have not so nice personalities, something that may have been inherent, or may have been learned.

You are right; she didn’t kick “anyone”. Kicking the dog is a euphemism. She “kicked the dog”, and it bit her. Some people learn from their choices and the results they get from enacting them. Others don’t. Objectively she was correct. Subjectively, she will have to decide, the next time she observes that someone is incorrect in what they do, if and how she will approach them. Perhaps all that will be necessary is “tougher skin”. Perhaps a different approach will be used. Or perhaps she will choose to let “sleeping dogs lie”. That will be up to her.

I’m not sure what you mean by going where angels fear to tread…
Maybe I am naiive given the fact that I’ve never dealt with the Pastor or the Diocese much before this last couple of years…
I am new at this and perplexed at the level of anger I seem to be encountering. Especially given the fact that RS states that the faithful have the right and responsibility to question when they feel their pastor or Bishop is not following the magisterium.

I would think that the Pastor would be happy we care, and believe in the real presence, instead of getting angry…so you are right…I don’t get it. Is there something BIG I’m just missing?