Common Principals of Faith we Share

[IgnatianPhilo]

**I think IgnatianPhilo is saying something different - that we still remain the dead body till the Day of Judgement. **

BTW, what if you don’t particularly like this body, will you get a better one?

If you are waiting for something heaven, then it is not a perfect place, it is lacking in something. Apparently that something is a physical body - will this body have the normal functions of a physical body - breathing, sweating, excretion, hunger etc? If not, what exactly is physical about it?

I don’t remember ever saying that, and if you read that into my statements that was a misreading. As for the functions of this immortal body, we cannot describe that which we cannot have seen nor has it been laid out for us in scripture except what we see in Jesus. Jesus ate with his apostles and he was unrecognizable to his apostles.

 

[travissbeloved]

Roman Catholics believe when you die you either go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. When your time in purgatory is done you go to heaven. At the final judgment you will be judged again but cannot be condemned to hell. Those who are alive at the Final judgment will be judged on the spot and either go to heaven or hell. (no purgatory) At the time of the final judgment you will get your body back and it will be as perfect as your body has ever been. What that particularily means I don’t know but you won’t get a new body, it will be yours alone.

We are still perfectly happy in heaven but still waiting. Heaven is enough no matter what. Like let’s say our dad goes to hell. In a human sense some people might think that would make us very sad but in heaven we will not be sad because to be with Jesus is enough and we will see that his judgment was fair.

Our bodies will not have their normal functions per say. We will be invincible, able to walk through walls and teleport just as Jesus did after his resurrection. Our bodies are a temple and they are sacred and the Lord wants us to have them after the Final Judgment.

 

[openmind77]

Thanks for the explanation.

I wonder what happened to our Bahai friends - they are usually anxious to tell us what Bahauallah has to say about any such thing.

Do Muslims as well as Bahais believe in resurrection of the body?

Do Bahais believe in the Day of Judgment and if so, what do they believe will take place on that day?

 

[TRH1292]

openmind77,

The teaching of the faith is that human beings are a physical body and a immaterial soul. These are not opposed to each other. Death occurs when the soul no longer exercises control or acts through the body. Then the body and soul are separated. This is a temporary and unnatural state. In the state, without a body, the soul is placed in either hell, heaven, or purgatory. At the end of time all people will have a resurrected physical body. For the ones in heaven, the physical body will be substantially the same and analogous to the body they had one earth, but will be in a glorified and perfected state.

 

[TRH1292]

Thanks for the explanation.

I wonder what happened to our Bahai friends - they are usually anxious to tell us what Bahauallah has to say about any such thing.

Do Muslims as well as Bahais believe in resurrection of the body?

Do Bahais believe in the Day of Judgment and if so, what do they believe will take place on that day?

Islam also believes in a Resurrection and Judgement. I have no idea about the Bahai’s and would be curious to know.

 

[openmind77]

openmind77,

The teaching of the faith is that human beings are a physical body and a immaterial soul. These are not opposed to each other. Death occurs when the soul no longer exercises control or acts through the body. Then the body and soul are separated. This is a temporary and unnatural state. In the state, without a body, the soul is placed in either hell, heaven, or purgatory. At the end of time all people will have a resurrected physical body. For the ones in heaven, the physical body will be substantially the same and analogous to the body they had one earth, but will be in a glorified and perfected state.

I think understand, but it all sounds really strange.

You would think that a soul would be perfect and would not need a physical body in order to complete it.

You would think a physical body would obey the laws of physics.

If you die as baby, would this body be a baby’s body or an adult body? I suppose any imperfection, disability would not longer exist? Would Siamese twins remain connected? Would transgender persons remain transgender or do they automatically go to hell?

 

[TRH1292]

I think understand, but it all sounds really strange.

You would think that a soul would be perfect and would not need a physical body in order to complete it.

You would think a physical body would obey the laws of physics.

If you die as baby, would this body be a baby’s body or an adult body? I suppose any imperfection, disability would not longer exist? Would Siamese twins remain connected? Would transgender persons remain transgender or do they automatically go to hell?

That’s like saying “You would think arms would be perfect, and not need legs to complete them.” It just doesn’t jive. Part of being a human is having a human body.

People do not automatically go to hell.

 

[openmind77]

That’s like saying “You would think arms would be perfect, and not need legs to complete them.” It just doesn’t jive. Part of being a human is having a human body.

People do not automatically go to hell.

Why on earth would you think arms are perfect?

I think souls in heaven should be perfect and not need anything from outside heaven.

 

[daler]

Why on earth would you think arms are perfect?

I think souls in heaven should be perfect and not need anything from outside heaven.

Dear Openmind,
. You have me laughing out loud with your posts, friend. I love the way you think! We do seem to need a gentle nudge to transcend the notions of childish imagination and limited conceptions of reality where the soul/body connection lies.

. My own thoughts are that when we were first conceived, it is the soul that is conceived with a body as a necessary part of the package. We learn to struggle and grow physically, then at some point spiritually, making moral choices, for example.

. When the fetus outgrows its need for the placenta and umbilical cord, and is ejected from the womb, we do not have some sort of idea that the soul still requires what was needed in the womb, right? So in these notions that the soul needs this physical body is sort of like saying, well, it still needs the placenta and umbilical cord.

. I think we are hindered by our not knowing anything about the “afterlife”, and tend to revert to an existing identity with which we associate our body with our self, or soul. The afterlife of the fetus is the baby. The afterlife of the baby is the adolescent. The afterlife of the adolescent is the adult, and the afterlife of the adult is ???

. Why will we need lungs if we don’t need oxygen in heaven? Why will we need T-cells if there is no need for an immune response? We associate the needs of the soul with our present needs, as if the soul does not progress, which it already has, through the temporary stages of the fetus in the womb, the umbilical cord, the baby teeth, adult teeth and jaws, etc. All of these organs are physical functions at a certain stage of development and are eventually no longer necessary to the life of the soul.

. The rider, upon finishing the journey, dismounts the horse. Or maybe the horse is shot out from under him while he’s still on the trail. The body is the horse. The soul is the rider. The earth is our second, collective womb, in my opinion, from which we shall emerge and to which we will not return.

Peace, brother. Keep that thinking cap on and continue to share those great thoughts you’re having…

.

 

[openmind77]

Dear Openmind,
. You have me laughing out loud with your posts, friend. I love the way you think! We do seem to need a gentle nudge to transcend the notions of childish imagination and limited conceptions of reality where the soul/body connection lies.

. My own thoughts are that when we were first conceived, it is the soul that is conceived with a body as a necessary part of the package. We learn to struggle and grow physically, then at some point spiritually, making moral choices, for example.

. When the fetus outgrows its need for the placenta and umbilical cord, and is ejected from the womb, we do not have some sort of idea that the soul still requires what was needed in the womb, right? So in these notions that the soul needs this physical body is sort of like saying, well, it still needs the placenta and umbilical cord.

. I think we are hindered by our not knowing anything about the “afterlife”, and tend to revert to an existing identity with which we associate our body with our self, or soul. The afterlife of the fetus is the baby. The afterlife of the baby is the adolescent. The afterlife of the adolescent is the adult, and the afterlife of the adult is ???

. Why will we need lungs if we don’t need oxygen in heaven? Why will we need T-cells if there is no need for an immune response? We associate the needs of the soul with our present needs, as if the soul does not progress, which it already has, through the temporary stages of the fetus in the womb, the umbilical cord, the baby teeth, adult teeth and jaws, etc. All of these organs are physical functions at a certain stage of development and are eventually no longer necessary to the life of the soul.

. The rider, upon finishing the journey, dismounts the horse. Or maybe the horse is shot out from under him while he’s still on the trail. The body is the horse. The soul is the rider. The earth is our second, collective womb, in my opinion, from which we shall emerge and to which we will not return.

Peace, brother. Keep that thinking cap on and continue to share those great thoughts you’re having…

.

Your post is as clear as mud!

So according to Bahaism, is there going to be a judgement day?

What is going to happen on Judgment day?

Are bodies of the dead going to be resurrected?

Are people who already in heaven/hell going to be judged again?

When is this Judgement day going to happen?

Thanks

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear Openmind,
. You have me laughing out loud with your posts, friend. I love the way you think! We do seem to need a gentle nudge to transcend the notions of childish imagination and limited conceptions of reality where the soul/body connection lies.

. My own thoughts are that when we were first conceived, it is the soul that is conceived with a body as a necessary part of the package. We learn to struggle and grow physically, then at some point spiritually, making moral choices, for example.

. When the fetus outgrows its need for the placenta and umbilical cord, and is ejected from the womb, we do not have some sort of idea that the soul still requires what was needed in the womb, right? So in these notions that the soul needs this physical body is sort of like saying, well, it still needs the placenta and umbilical cord.

. I think we are hindered by our not knowing anything about the “afterlife”, and tend to revert to an existing identity with which we associate our body with our self, or soul. The afterlife of the fetus is the baby. The afterlife of the baby is the adolescent. The afterlife of the adolescent is the adult, and the afterlife of the adult is ???

. Why will we need lungs if we don’t need oxygen in heaven? Why will we need T-cells if there is no need for an immune response? We associate the needs of the soul with our present needs, as if the soul does not progress, which it already has, through the temporary stages of the fetus in the womb, the umbilical cord, the baby teeth, adult teeth and jaws, etc. All of these organs are physical functions at a certain stage of development and are eventually no longer necessary to the life of the soul.

. The rider, upon finishing the journey, dismounts the horse. Or maybe the horse is shot out from under him while he’s still on the trail. The body is the horse. The soul is the rider. The earth is our second, collective womb, in my opinion, from which we shall emerge and to which we will not return.

Peace, brother. Keep that thinking cap on and continue to share those great thoughts you’re having…

.

Ah, you bahai complain that a topic gets distorted and that insults happen and you call the theology of the religions you supposebly respect “childish,” well two can play at that game. What is the purpose of having a creation, a physical world which must be transcended and given over to death? The bahai believe death to be a liberator, we Christians believe (as the apostle Paul said which you deny) that death is the enemy. God’s creation is not bad, nor is it something to be set free from, it is good but was given over to destruction. For the Christian, we see God as not thinking it right that his creation should be given over to evil from which nothing can return.

We have the example of Jesus christ rising from the dead and eating with his apostles, why is this so absurd? Is it not in the power of God to reverse death? It is and he has done it through his son Jesus.

Now you opened the floor for this by accusing the idea of ressurection as being childish, it is not childish, rather your simple gnosticism in which creation and physical matter is something lesser to God than spirit (as if his creation means less to him), that is what is truely childish. The simple notion that death is a liberator, that disease, famine and everything which causes death is good because it liberates the soul from the body God intended us to live in, that is what is childish. There is no justice in the creation being created solely to die.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Thanks for the explanation.

I wonder what happened to our Bahai friends - they are usually anxious to tell us what Bahauallah has to say about any such thing.

Do Muslims as well as Bahais believe in resurrection of the body?

Do Bahais believe in the Day of Judgment and if so, what do they believe will take place on that day?

Muslims, Jews and Christians all agree on the day of ressurection and there being a day of judgement. Bahais however do deny this.

 

[tonyfish58]

Your post is as clear as mud!

So according to Bahaism, is there going to be a judgement day?

What is going to happen on Judgment day?

Are bodies of the dead going to be resurrected?

Are people who already in heaven/hell going to be judged again?

When is this Judgement day going to happen?

Thanks

We are right in the middle of Judgement day, this is the time to make our Choices, this is a bountiful time to live in, God has blessed us all!

As this thread is re common principals of Faith we share lets see if we can answer with writings from religion, not our own Ideas!

John 6:63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matthew 8:22 - But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God…” Some Answered Questions Abdu’l-Bahá - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-68.html

For life is of two kinds: that of the body and that of the spirit. The life of the body is material life, but the life of the spirit expresses the existence of the Kingdom, which consists in receiving the Spirit of God and becoming vivified by the breath of the Holy Spirit…” - Some Answered Questions Abdu’l-Bahá - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-68.html

These explanations show that man is immortal and lives eternally. For those who believe in God, who have love of God, and faith, life is excellent—that is, it is eternal; but to those souls who are veiled from God, although they have life, it is dark, and in comparison with the life of believers it is nonexistence… Some Answered Questions Abdu’l-Bahá - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-68.html

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

openmind77,

The teaching of the faith is that human beings are a physical body and a immaterial soul. These are not opposed to each other. Death occurs when the soul no longer exercises control or acts through the body. Then the body and soul are separated. This is a temporary and unnatural state. In the state, without a body, the soul is placed in either hell, heaven, or purgatory. At the end of time all people will have a resurrected physical body. For the ones in heaven, the physical body will be substantially the same and analogous to the body they had one earth, but will be in a glorified and perfected state.

My friend, the definition of physical is not something that can teleport and walk through walls.

So is it the soul or the body which is immaterial?

 

[Servant19]

Ah, you bahai complain that a topic gets distorted and that insults happen and you call the theology of the religions you supposebly respect “childish,” well two can play at that game. What is the purpose of having a creation, a physical world which must be transcended and given over to death?

You answered this yourself. The purpose of this life is, among many other things, to “transcend” it. We are not mere animals because we are able to use our spiritual gifts, such as imagination, creativity and intellect to “transcend” nature. Animals cannot do this, they are slaves to nature. We are not.

The bahai believe death to be a liberator, we Christians believe (as the apostle Paul said which you deny) that death is the enemy. God’s creation is not bad, nor is it something to be set free from, it is good but was given over to destruction. For the Christian, we see God as not thinking it right that his creation should be given over to evil from which nothing can return.

I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that Christianity has muddied its waters between “physical” death and “spiritual” death.

Jesus provided salvation from “spiritual” death.
If he provisioned salvation from “physical” death, then He was manifestly a failure…

So physical death is NOT the enemy. Jesus gave you the Kingdom of God in your HEART, not in the physical world. He also gave you salvation of the HEART, not a physical salvation. YOU WILL DIE PHYSICALLY…I will put my entire soul on it

.

We have the example of Jesus christ rising from the dead and eating with his apostles, why is this so absurd? Is it not in the power of God to reverse death? It is and he has done it through his son Jesus.

It is not absurd at all Iggy. Jesus may have done a whole number of miraculous things in His life.How would you KNOW for sure, unless you were there yourself to witness it? But in terms of importance, nothing He did during His life ranks even close to what He did in the hearts and souls of His loved ones, and what He continues to do today from His spiritual realm sitting next to Baha’u’llah

Now you opened the floor for this by accusing the idea of ressurection as being childish, it is not childish, rather your simple gnosticism in which creation and physical matter is something lesser to God than spirit (as if his creation means less to him), that is what is truely childish. The simple notion that death is a liberator, that disease, famine and everything which causes death is good because it liberates the soul from the body God intended us to live in, that is what is childish. There is no justice in the creation being created solely to die.

If God’s physical, earthly creation is so important, then there would never have been a 3000 year wait for a Saviour.

Now again, you talk about death as if that is IT…there is nothing thereafter. Do you or do you not believe in an afterlife? If you do, then physical death is not so bad after all…

Its a bit like moving house Ignatian. Why would we bother living in a house, only for us to move to another house afterwards? As you say therefore, “there is no justice in dwelling in a house, ONLY for us to move to another house”…how does that make sense?

 

[tonyfish58]

Muslims, Jews and Christians all agree on the day of ressurection and there being a day of judgement. Bahais however do deny this.

Thus we will share writings from the Baha’i Faith on this subject we deny

Could it be we do not deny, but just have a different understanding

Following are Biblical References

The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All their states, their conditions, their acts, the things they have established, their teachings, their expressions, their parables, and their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. (Some Answered Questions, old ed., p.119)

As to the influence of holy Beings and the continuation of Their grace to mankind after They have put away Their human form, this is, to Bahá’ís, an indisputable fact. Indeed, the flooding grace, the streaming splendours of the Holy Manifestations appear after Their ascension from this world. The exaltation of the word, the revelation of the power of God, the conversion of God- fearing souls, the bestowal of everlasting life - it was following the Messiah’s martyrdom [crucification of Christ] that all these were increased and intensified. In the same way, ever since the ascension of the Blessed Beauty [Bahá’u’lláh], the bestowals have been more abundant, the spreading light is brighter, the tokens of the Lord’s might are more powerful, the influence of the Word is much stronger, and it will not be long before the motion, the heat, the brilliance, the blessings of the Sun of His reality will encompass all the earth… Selections From the Writings of `Abdu’l-Bahá, p.65

Buried with him [Jesus] in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. - Col. 2:12

…as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. - Rom. 6:4

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. - I Cor. 12:27

I also found this - bahai-library.com/foster_resurrection_bahai_perspective

The rapture, or translation, of the church, terms which are never actually used in the New Testament, are also references to the resurrections of unbelievers. I offer the following quote from the first epistle of the Apostle Paul to the Thessolonians. Commentary is included in brackets:

...we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope [There IS hope beyond the grave for those who sleep, i.e., who are dead.]. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [resurrection of the Cause of Christ], even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus [Christians, when they leave this world, will be allowed to draw close to the Presence, the Will, of God.]. For this we have to say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain [in this world] until the coming of the Lord Himself [the return of Christ] shall not precede those who have fallen asleep [died]. For the Lord [return of Christ] will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet [call] of God; and the dead in Christ [those Christians who have passed into the Kingdom of God Beyond - the next world] shall rise first [have the blessing of being the first to arise, from the Kingdom of God Beyond, and bow down to the returned Christ]. Then we who are alive and remain [still in this world] shall be caught up together with them [the great believers who have attained a high station in the Kingdom of God Beyond] in the clouds [while still in the physical body] to meet the Lord [the return of Christ] in the air [the Kingdom of God, including the Kingdom of God Beyond and the Kingdom of God Revealed], and thus we shall ever be with the Lord [in the everlasting Kingdom of God]. - I Thes. 4:13-17, New American Standard Version

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

Your post is as clear as mud!

So according to Bahaism, is there going to be a judgement day?

What is going to happen on Judgment day?

Are bodies of the dead going to be resurrected?

Are people who already in heaven/hell going to be judged again?

When is this Judgement day going to happen?

Thanks

Sorry for not addressing your questions earlier, my friend. Will do so here as best I can.

. We are living in the Day of Judgement. Humanity is being judged and sorted out, you and me, all of us, in this day.

. This is also the Day of Resurrection. The Bab explains this very well. When Jesus said “I am the Resurrection and the Life”, the way the Bab explains it is that He was the Resurrection of the Faith of Moses, Who was the Resurrection of the Faith of Abraham, etc. So Jesus was the Resurrection of the Religion of God from a former age, and this was all prior to His crucifixion, you know. The Religion of God is likened to a Tree, which continually renews itself, and every time a Manifestation of God appears to gather the fruit of the former Tree of Revelation, some are ripe and others are not.

. As to the resurrection of the dead, this does not mean their physical bodies, but rather is referring to the spiritually dead who are quickened by the New Revelation of God which comes from the next Manifestation, which are like another Spiritual Springtime in which that which was dead in the winter, or dormant, comes to life in a new season. Does this make any sense to you?

. If I may refer you to a brief but concise description of the Bab’s Writings on the Day of Resurrection, I think it will answer your question far better than my words:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/tb/SWB/swb-102.html

.

 

[daler]

Your post is as clear as mud!

So according to Bahaism, is there going to be a judgement day?

What is going to happen on Judgment day?

Are bodies of the dead going to be resurrected?

Are people who already in heaven/hell going to be judged again?

When is this Judgement day going to happen?

Thanks

PS,

Openmind, Here is another brief statement on the Day of Judgement which is more specific to this question. I hope you don’t mind my referring you to it in this way. I’m a little tired and besides, I can’t do it justice. This isn’t long and if you don’t mind discussing a little further with me after you ponder it, I would be grateful. Its 1 am here and well past my bedtime, my friend.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-175.html
Daler

 

[daler]

Muslims, Jews and Christians all agree on the day of ressurection and there being a day of judgement. Bahais however do deny this.

Wrong again, Iggy.

Please see above posts and if you don’t mind reading the links provided, it will cut through all the chase, my friend…

Peace and God’s blessings to you

Dale

 

[openmind77]

Sorry for not addressing your questions earlier, my friend. Will do so here as best I can.

. We are living in the Day of Judgement. Humanity is being judged and sorted out, you and me, all of us, in this day.

. This is also the Day of Resurrection. The Bab explains this very well. When Jesus said “I am the Resurrection and the Life”, the way the Bab explains it is that He was the Resurrection of the Faith of Moses, Who was the Resurrection of the Faith of Abraham, etc. So Jesus was the Resurrection of the Religion of God from a former age, and this was all prior to His crucifixion, you know. The Religion of God is likened to a Tree, which continually renews itself, and every time a Manifestation of God appears to gather the fruit of the former Tree of Revelation, some are ripe and others are not.

. As to the resurrection of the dead, this does not mean their physical bodies, but rather is referring to the spiritually dead who are quickened by the New Revelation of God which comes from the next Manifestation, which are like another Spiritual Springtime in which that which was dead in the winter, or dormant, comes to life in a new season. Does this make any sense to you?

. If I may refer you to a brief but concise description of the Bab’s Writings on the Day of Resurrection, I think it will answer your question far better than my words:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/tb/SWB/swb-102.html

.

Sorry, I am too lazy to visit your links and read. But let me summarize your answers as you gave them:

1. According to Bahaism, is there going to be a judgement day? YES
2. What is going to happen on Judgment day? Humanity is going to judged. (I assume each individual will also be judged?) This is also the Day of Resurrection
3. Are bodies of the dead going to be resurrected? No physical Resurrection. It is a spiritual body
4. Are people who already in heaven/hell going to be judged again? No Answer from you To add to this question - If yes, will some of those in heaven now be sent to hell and vice versa?
5. When is this Judgement day going to happen? We are in the middle of it. To add to this question: so are people being judged and resurrection even as I write this? At what rate is this happening (20 people per day or 200000 per day or as they die? What about the ones already dead - at what rate?) If I am one of those judged tomorrow will I be sent to hell immediately or God will wait for me to die?

Some more questions that come to mind (I am numbering them, so you won’t miss them):

1. These spiritual resurrected bodies - do they have gender ie are they male or female (and in some cases ambiguous)?
2. Do souls in heaven have gender?
3. Are people in heaven married?
4. What is the Bahai take on the 72 virgins in paradise story?

Thanks very much (BTW, do you guys ever talk without using metaphors - like trees and horses and mighty winds etc?).