Common questions Muslims can´t answer:

[Hadi]

What I would also like to know is how adultery, under the guise of permissable sex with captive women, is pleasing to God and gives glory to Him?

I guess I just don’t understand how having sexual intercourse with a woman who is not your wife would be something that God would specifically and expressly permit, when God specifically said in the Ten Commandments “Thou shall not commit adultery”. Was there a diffferent definition of adultery?

Islamic scholars also seem to claim that the Quran was making lives better for the slaves and gradually freeing the slaves, however I fail to see how permitting sex with these captives accomplishes that (other than the fact that if they happen to get pregnant they “earn” their freedom). All it seems to accomplish is satisfying the lust of the “master” or “owner”. What benefit is it to the captive woman? Perhaps it is supposed to be “compensation” for all of the support/food/clothing/shelter that the “master” is providing for her? And again, how can this be argued to be something from God?

I also missed the answer to if there is a specific verse in the Quran that completely and permanently abolishes slavery and the taking of captive women even in the case of war? If that was the goal of all of these practices, shouldn’t there have been a final “revelation” completing this process? If someone already posted such a verse, I apologize - please just point me in the right direction. Thank you.

4:25 And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

24:33 And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, Lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

5:89 Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which ye swear in earnest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, or the liberation of a slave, and for him who findeth not (the wherewithal to do so) then a three day fast. This is the expiation of your oaths when ye have sworn; and keep your oaths. Thus Allah expoundeth unto you His revelations in order that ye may give thanks.

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing

 

[Jimzz12]

Back then, there were no governments with good social system that protects everyone. Slavery back then was that social system in special cases

In the history profession we call this ‘speculation’. In the early 7th century after Christ, a number of destablizing forces came together and wreaked a certain degree of havoc in the Mediterranean world. The governments that we in place had actually been very stable and provided a good deal of well being – both material and spiritual. But, it doesn’t take much to topple a society that as a whole was teetering on the edge due to natural diasaster. For instance, in Yemen at the time, the single largest reservoir broke flooding streets and killing uncounted numbers with drownings and eventual thirst. Another was a change of power in Middle Eastern kingdoms.

Here on the Catholic forums when we speak of protection it’s important to remember that only God protects. Slavery was a human institution and it lasted for far too long. Indeed it is still in existence. For as an eye witness, I can testify to that. God, allows these things. We learned many lessons from it. The most useful lesson is that it gave us a language we can use to describe living in a state of sin and bodily decay – slavery of sin versus freedom in The Everlasting Truth. Today the institution of slavery, perceptably has no place.

 

[Jay53]

I’m not sure which of my questions you are addressing with these verses.

4:25 And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This says if you can’t afford to marry a free woman marry a believing slave with permission of her family. What if her family has just been slaughtered by the “master”? Who gives permission then?

24:33 And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, Lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

I’m not even sure what this means. This suggests that there are a number of slaves who would prefer to be slaves and that the slaves have to request their freedom. There is also a “loophole” that says to write the letter of emancipation “***if ***ye are aware of aught of good in them…”. Who determines what is good in them?

This also says “force not your slave girls to whoredom… if they would preserve their chastity”. So if the slave girls are willing participants then the “master” is free to engage in adultery/fornication with them? And the last sentence seems to say that if someone rapes them, then after their rape Allah will forgive them? (or forgive the rapist?) (I wasn’t clear as to which it meant.)

5:89 Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which ye swear in earnest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, or the liberation of a slave, and for him who findeth not (the wherewithal to do so) then a three day fast. This is the expiation of your oaths when ye have sworn; and keep your oaths. Thus Allah expoundeth unto you His revelations in order that ye may give thanks.

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing

These verses seem to say that a Muslim is rewarded for liberating a slave. I have heard that before.

I’m looking more for a verse that abolishes slavery to begin with and says not to take slaves or captive women in the first place since that is what Islamic scholars say the goal of all these practices was.

And none of these answer how sex with a captive slave accomplishes the goal of abolishing slavery and how it gives glory to God. When did God change the definition of adultery?

 

[Hadi]

This also says “force not your slave girls to whoredom… if they would preserve their chastity”. So if the slave girls are willing participants then the “master” is free to engage in adultery/fornication with them? And the last sentence seems to say that if someone rapes them, then after their rape Allah will forgive them? (or forgive the rapist?) (I wasn’t clear as to which it meant.)

the forgiveness refers to the victims

 

[qui_est_ce]

the forgiveness refers to the victims

I don’t understand. Why would a victim need forgiveness?

 

[Jay53]

It also appears that freeing slaves is a punishment for wrongdoers of the Muslim faith. How does this reconcile with the fact that Islam is attempting to abolish slavery and freeing a slave is a noble deed to be admired and rewarded?

Qur’an 4:92 Surah An-Nisa (Women)
It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless it be by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer,** then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave**. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

Qur’an 58:3-4 Surah Al-Mujadilah (She That Disputeth)
Those who put away their wives by saying they are as their mothers and afterward would go back on that which they have said; the penalty in that case is the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. Unto this ye are exhorted; and Allah is informed of what ye do. And he who findeth not the wherewithal, let him fast for two successive months before they touch one another; and for him who is unable to do so the penance is the feeding of sixty needy ones. This, that ye may put trust in Allah and His messenger. Such are the limits imposed by Allah; and for disbelievers is a painful doom.

 

[inJESUS]

One of the questions that Islam cannot answer is about Jesus’ crucifixion ( yet Allah is clearing things you know) .

 

[qui_est_ce]

It also appears that freeing slaves is a punishment for wrongdoers of the Muslim faith. How does this reconcile with the fact that Islam is attempting to abolish slavery and freeing a slave is a noble deed to be admired and rewarded?

Qur’an 4:92 Surah An-Nisa (Women){snip}
Qur’an 58:3-4 Surah Al-Mujadilah (She That Disputeth)
Those who put away their wives by saying they are as their mothers and afterward would go back on that which they have said; the penalty in that {snip}.:hypno:

I give you a lot of credit for trying to make sense of convoluted structure of Surah.

 

[inJESUS]

:hypno:

I give you a lot of credit for trying to make sense of convoluted structure of Surah.

well actually if you find this video on youtube where the sheikh suddenly leaves the episode you will realize that he was actually saying that Islam did not abolish slavery and that slavery is still part of Islam…the interviewer who was a veiled Muslim woman took off her veil after the episode for obvious reasons…and the sheikh was a very prominent Sunni sheikh from Al-Azhar…so maybe Muslims should add the slavery topic to the list of “unclear” teachings of Islam in the “clear book”.

 

[Jay53]

Originally posted by Hadi
the forgiveness refers to the victims

I don’t understand. Why would a victim need forgiveness?

Hopefully someone will answer this. I would also like to know why a rape victim would need forgiveness. ??

 

[qui_est_ce]

Hopefully someone will answer this. I would also like to know why a rape victim would need forgiveness. ??

YA, still waiting too

 

[Hadi]

YA, still waiting too

**Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world

Some slave masters acted like today pimps and sent their slave girls into the streets as prostitutes (whoredom**) to bring back money (that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world)

God says He is merciful and forgiving to these prostitutes for the crime of prostitution since they were forced to it…

 

[Jay53]

24:33 And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, Lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

OK, I just read another tafsir on this sura which seems to indicate that it is discussing prostitution. Muslim slave owners are not to force the women slaves into prostitution and collect the money. So, apparently, if they have been forced into prostitution, when they are done, Allah will forgive them for their actions. Of course it doesn’t say anything about what the punishment is for the slave owner who has forced a woman into this.

(And force not your slave-girls to prostitution…) Among the people of the Jahiliyyah, there were some who, if he had a slave-girl, he would send her out to commit Zina and would charge money for that, which he would take from her every time. When Islam came, Allah forbade the believers to do that. The reason why this Ayah was revealed, according to the reports of a number of earlier and later scholars of Tafsir, had to do with `Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Salul. He had slave-girls whom he used to force into prostitution so that he could take their earnings and because he wanted them to have children which would enhance his status, or so he claimed. tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35958

The tafsir also seem to indicate the slave who asks for the writing of emancipation is to give money to the slave owner in compensation.

The Command to grant Slaves a Contract of Emancipation

وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَـبَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ فَكَـتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمُتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْراً]

(And such of your servants as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them.) This is a command from Allah to slave-owners: if their servants ask them for a contract of emancipation, they should write it for them, provided that the servant has some skill and means of earning so that he can pay his master the money that is stipulated in the contract. Al-Bukhari said: "Rawh narrated from Ibn Jurayj: I said to Ata’, "If I know that my servant has money, is it obligatory for me to write him a contract of emancipation’’ He said, "I do not think it can be anything but obligatory.’’ tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35947

 

[Jay53]

Sorry, Hadi - we must have been posting at the same time.

Can you also clarify the line:

Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity.

What is the purpose of saying “if they would preserve their chastity”. Can the slave owners pimp out their slaves if they are willing? He just can’t force them?

Also, I would still like to know how having sex with captive women works toward the abolishment of slavery, gives glory to God and does not violate His commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”.

 

[Hadi]

Sorry, Hadi - we must have been posting at the same time.

Can you also clarify the line:

Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity.

What is the purpose of saying “if they would preserve their chastity”. Can the slave owners pimp out their slaves if they are willing? He just can’t force them?
.

Thanks for the explanation …

This is why I prefer to read the Quran in its original language (Arabic) …

the word “if” إن is not a “conditional if” but a “state if” in Arabic ,

see this example:

2:172 O Belivers! eat the good things which We have provided for you as sustenance, and render thanks unto God,** if **you worship Him…

does it mean that if you don’t worship Him , you can’t eat the good things ?
this “if” is not conditional but expresses the state of the believers…

another example
2:31 And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He brought them within the the angels and said: "Declare unto Me the names of these [things], if you are truthful…

another example
3:175 It is but Satan who instills fear on his allies: so fear them not, but fear Me,** if** you are believers!

another example not including if ,but in the same manner
17:31 do not kill your children for fear of poverty

does it mean you can kill them if it’s not for poverty ?

therefore, it’s not a conditional if …or how do you force someone who is willing…

 

[Jay53]

Thanks for the explanation …

This is why I prefer to read the Quran in its original language (Arabic) …

the word “if” إن is not a “conditional if” but a “state if” in Arabic ,

see this example:

2:172 O Belivers! eat the good things which We have provided for you as sustenance, and render thanks unto God,** if **you worship Him…

does it mean that if you don’t worship Him , you can’t eat the good things ?
this “if” is not conditional but expresses the state of the believers…

another example
2:31 And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He brought them within the the angels and said: "Declare unto Me the names of these [things], if you are truthful…

another example
3:175 It is but Satan who instills fear on his allies: so fear them not, but fear Me,** if** you are believers!

another example not including if ,but in the same manner
17:31 do not kill your children for fear of poverty

does it mean you can kill them if it’s not for poverty ?

therefore, it’s not a conditional if …or how do you force someone who is willing…

I see, so it’s more of a ‘do not force them into prostitution because they would prefer to keep their chastity’ ? That would make much more sense!

However, it does not answer the rest of my questions.

 

[Hadi]

Also, I would still like to know how having sex with captive women works toward the abolishment of slavery, gives glory to God and does not violate His commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”.

Abraham didn’t violate this commandant by marrying a slave …yes he married her…and after the marriage , she was no longer a slave…the same thing in Islam…

 

[qui_est_ce]

Abraham didn’t violate this commandant by marrying a slave …yes he married her…and after the marriage , she was no longer a slave…the same thing in Islam…

Where did he marry her? Did he divorce her then too when Sara put her out of her house?

 

[Jay53]

Abraham didn’t violate this commandant by marrying a slave …yes he married her…and after the marriage , she was no longer a slave…the same thing in Islam…

I don’t believe Sarah was a slave. If you’re referring to Hagar, no he did not marry her - this has been discussed elsewhere. MuslimWoman confirmed for me that 1st wives do not have any control over subsequent wives in polygamist families so Sarah would have had no authority to send her away. Also, the angel who spoke to Hagar afterward addressed her as “servant of Sarai”, not “wife of Abram”

Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.”
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.”
6 “Your servant is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?”
“I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+16%3A1-15%2CGenesis+18%3A1-15%2CGenesis+21%3A1-7

The phrase “gave her to her husband to be his wife” was simply a euphemism for sexual intercourse.

So, yes, Abraham committed adultery.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I
The phrase “gave her to her husband to be his wife” was simply a euphemism for sexual intercourse.

So, yes, Abraham committed adultery.

Ahhh :newidea:

Is this what temporary marriages are about?