Communicating with Protestants

[lola1948]

Reading the posts here has helped somewhat. I have felt so alienated from my church - with all the pressure and stress of life, sometimes I just want to cover up and sleep all day. When I do go to Mass, I’ve been so sporadic with my attendance that I don’t even know most people and the few I do know are usually up at the front (LOL). So rather than feeling sorry for myself, I am planning to provide a free workshop on depression (am an art therapist counselor) at the church - I’ll let you all know how that goes - and perhaps I can be a better CAtholic and understand how to defend my faith when it comes to those Protestant questions…yeah, this past weekend a “friend” told me to pray when I’m depressed. I retorted, “I do pray! I’ve even been saying the rosary,” to which she quipped, “Well, I don’t mean praying to Mary, I mean to God.” That got my blood boiling so fast I snapped at her, “We don’t pray TO Mary.” Then the discussion sort of fizzled as she saw I was angry…wish I had more to say than that…

 

[David]

Many Protestants say “I got saved,” or “I am saved,” or “Have you been saved?” Many, but not all of them, think salvation is instantaneous, as soon as one “accepts Jesus Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior,” and “asks Jesus into one’s heart” but the Bible doesn’t teach instant salvation.

A Catholic should say when asked:

“I have been saved” (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),

“I am being saved” (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15),

“and I have the hope that I will be saved when I die (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).”

“Like the Apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11.)”

Catholics embrace all of the dimensions of salvation in the Bible. Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior or asking him into your heart are nowhere to be found in the Bible Protestants claim is the only rule of faith. Lutherans and Anglicans/Episcopalians don’t believe in instant salvation either.

Jim Dandy
Former Protestant

Thanks Jim,
I hope this wasn’t copyrighted, because I just copied it my hard drive…

Peace
David

 

[David]

They don’t see that one Church has all the answers, but that the truth been given to all who hold to the Nicene creed. They don’t accept that Christ is literally ‘ON the table’, to be sacrificed at each celebration of the mass (Holy Communion) but was sacrificed once for all of us. They insist that as he is indeed risen, it is he who stands invisible ‘AT the table’ offering to us what is figuratively, but not literally his body, as at the last supper and nevertheless take the celebration seriously.

Hello Tony,
I have a question on the bold text above. Do you understand “once for all” as meaning “one time and over with” or “one time, for all times, all ages, and all generations” like never ending?

Peace
David

 

[Jim_Dandy]

:clapping:

Thanks Jim,
I hope this wasn’t copyrighted, because I just copied it my hard drive…

Peace
David

:clapping::tiphat:

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

Reading the posts here has helped somewhat. I have felt so alienated from my church - with all the pressure and stress of life, sometimes I just want to cover up and sleep all day. When I do go to Mass, I’ve been so sporadic with my attendance that I don’t even know most people and the few I do know are usually up at the front (LOL). So rather than feeling sorry for myself, I am planning to provide a free workshop on depression (am an art therapist counselor) at the church - I’ll let you all know how that goes - and perhaps I can be a better CAtholic and understand how to defend my faith when it comes to those Protestant questions…yeah, this past weekend a “friend” told me to pray when I’m depressed. I retorted, “I do pray! I’ve even been saying the rosary,” to which she quipped, “Well, I don’t mean praying to Mary, I mean to God.” That got my blood boiling so fast I snapped at her, “We don’t pray TO Mary.” Then the discussion sort of fizzled as she saw I was angry…wish I had more to say than that…

I have seen catholics say that they DO pray to Mary, then they proceed to say that the word ‘prayer’ has a differrent meaning to what protestants think it means. They say it means ‘ask’, which is different to prayer, as in the words ‘I prithee’. There is only one instance in the whole of the bible in which any person, supposed to be a follower of God, attempts to ASK a deceased person for advice or perhaps help. That was in the case of King Saul. He was so desparate that he sought to raise up Samuel, no doubt regarded by the Jews as a saint. I think it was unusual that God would allow a departed person to communicate with the living at all, for various reasons. One because of biblical teaching against necromancy, two because the bible teaches that the spirits of the blessed dead are blissfully asleep and have not yet transcended to heaven until the day of judgement. I think in this case God did allow it to happen to teach Saul a lesson. When Saul came up he was angry at being disturbed from his rest *(like a man being rudely awakened from sleep) and what he said was of no help to Saul at all.

So how would you describe your discourses with Mary?

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

Hello Tony,
I have a question on the bold text above. Do you understand “once for all” as meaning “one time and over with” or “one time, for all times, all ages, and all generations” like never ending?

Peace
David

I am not sure I understand the distinctions you are enquiring about. i tjhink it means that Jesus will not sacrifice himself again for our sins. the one sacrifice was sufficient for all of us and has no need to be repeated. Christ cannot be both risen and then return to be sacrificed onncre more or even repeatedly. But to remind ourself of the crucifixion that is a fixed point in history gives us an assurance that our sins have been atoned for, once and for all.

Tony

 

[StarFireKK]

I have seen catholics say that they DO pray to Mary, then they proceed to say that the word ‘prayer’ has a differrent meaning to what protestants think it means. They say it means ‘ask’, which is different to prayer, as in the words ‘I prithee’. There is only one instance in the whole of the bible in which any person, supposed to be a follower of God, attempts to ASK a deceased person for advice or perhaps help. That was in the case of King Saul. He was so desparate that he sought to raise up Samuel, no doubt regarded by the Jews as a saint. I think it was unusual that God would allow a departed person to communicate with the living at all, for various reasons. One because of biblical teaching against necromancy, two because the bible teaches that the spirits of the blessed dead are blissfully asleep and have not yet transcended to heaven until the day of judgement. I think in this case God did allow it to happen to teach Saul a lesson. When Saul came up he was angry at being disturbed from his rest *(like a man being rudely awakened from sleep) and what he said was of no help to Saul at all.

So how would you describe your discourses with Mary?

Catholics don’t believe the dead are waiting. Remember on the cross Jesus told the man “Amen, I say to thee, this day thou shall be with me in paradise.”

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

Catholics don’t believe the dead are waiting. Remember on the cross Jesus told the man “Amen, I say to thee, this day thou shall be with me in paradise.”

Paradise isn’t heaven.

 

[Monica4316]

If someone were to ask me if I’ve “been saved”, I would say something like… “I believe in Jesus, and since I’m Catholic I believe that salvation is not something instantaneous but it involves the past, present, and future”.

 

[StarFireKK]

Paradise isn’t heaven.

Okay…I’ve never heard that one before.

Nonetheless, the Catholic Church does not teach the gates of heaven are closed until judgment day.

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you wish. But if you want to understand how Catholics view Mary and the Saints you must understand we believe them to be in heaven with Christ.

 

[Pitcharan]

I am not sure I understand the distinctions you are enquiring about. i tjhink it means that Jesus will not sacrifice himself again for our sins. the one sacrifice was sufficient for all of us and has no need to be repeated. Christ cannot be both risen and then return to be sacrificed onncre more or even repeatedly. But to remind ourself of the crucifixion that is a fixed point in history gives us an assurance that our sins have been atoned for, once and for all.

Tony

I have a small doubt; can you or some one clarify:

If the Risen Lord cannot suffer again, why did He cry “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

Basically, I will have to say, I’ll know for sure, when I AM DEAD!

Sadly, that puts you on the same footing as Muslims, almost (I am not making it up!)

Muslims believe that they have many laws to keep, but, even after doing their best to keep all of these, never know until the end of their life, whether they will be in heaven or hell. it all depends upon the will of Allah.

It reminds me of a prisoner on death row, who has made a sincere attempt to amend his life during his years of imrisonment, whilst lawyers have appealed his case over and over again. he knows that at any time, the reprieve may come through- or not!!

Jesus told us he goes to prepare a place for us, in his Father’s house; a mansion for each of us. Sure there are people who think they must be saved by a faith formula, but whose lives don’t confirm they have ever become a new creation in Christ, that they have passed from death into life, that old things have passed away and the new has come. James rightly talks about showing our faith by our works. the works surely can only proceed from a changed life, or else they are ‘all as filthy rags.’ Paul says, we ‘are not saved by works, lest we should boast’ about it.

Here’s the thing, mulititudes of Catholics have already been saved by faith and are therefore doing good works out of their new condition of being made righteous in Christ. But much as we would like to be able to include in that every friend and every family member who has been baptised, the reality is that not all have truly believed or truly repented, otherwise God would have to have violated their free will. If all they have are good works, these are just through their own attempts to be righteous and not inspired by the Holy Spirit living inside of them.

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

I have a small doubt; can you or some one clarify:

If the Risen Lord cannot suffer again, why did He cry “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

I never said that the Risen Lord cannot experience pain, surely that as wholly man and wholly God he is still touched witht the feelings of our infirmities and aches for the persecuted; they are not in want of redemption but of intercession and intervention. Saul had been persecuting the Church and Jesus was hurting for each persecuted member. but this was not some fresh act of atonement. When Christ was crucified, he cried out: ‘it is finished’ when he rose from the dead, he went before the throne of his father and deposited his blood there before the Mercy Seat. He has no more blood to shed than what he already did. Jesus has lefet nothing unfinished. What he did was fully sufficient for the salvation of every member of the human race and yet to come, if they would only love Him and have faith in Him.

 

[Pitcharan]

I never said that the Risen Lord cannot experience pain, surely that as wholly man and wholly God he is still touched witht the feelings of our infirmities and aches for the persecuted; they are not in want of redemption but of intercession and intervention. Saul had been persecuting the Church and Jesus was hurting for each persecuted member. but this was not some fresh act of atonement. When Christ was crucified, he cried out: ‘it is finished’ when he rose from the dead, he went before the throne of his father and deposited his blood there before the Mercy Seat. He has no more blood to shed than what he already did. Jesus has lefet nothing unfinished. What he did was fully sufficient for the salvation of every member of the human race and yet to come, if they would only love Him and have faith in Him.

Jesus left nothing unfinished on His part. But why would He finish our part. His suffering is to be complemented with ours. Which means in addition to loving Him and having faith in Him we must also endure much suffering.

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Col 1:24)

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

Jesus left nothing unfinished on His part. But why would He finish our part. His suffering is to be complemented with ours. Which means in addition to loving Him and having faith in Him we must also endure much suffering.

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Col 1:24)

I hope this explanation will serve:

As Paul showed in his exultation in suffering in 2 Corinthians 11:16-33 , though not in the same sense in which Christ suffered and died for us as Redeemer. Paul attaches no atoning value whatever to his own sufferings for the church (see also verse 2 Corinthians 18 ).

Neither Paul’s sufferings nor ours can add one iota to the atonement (making us acceptable to God) that was made by the one perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ alone. It may serve only to sanctify us, but God already accepts us 100%, if we are in Christ.

 

[Pitcharan]

I hope this explanation will serve:…Neither Paul’s sufferings nor ours can add one iota to the atonement (making us acceptable to God) that was made by the one perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ alone. It may serve only to sanctify us, but God already accepts us 100%, if we are in Christ.

Thank you

 

[lola1948]

I have tried so very hard to “think” myself into faith - I have accepted, but am nagged by so many doubts, many of which are even more stellar today since all three of my sons are nonpracticing Catholics and they have gone over to their wives’ Protestant ways. It does make me sad, but what is more is that I wish I would have talked with them seriously about religion when they were growing up - we did the Sunday Mass thing and HOly Communion, but that’s it. Why didn’t I take the time to really teach them about God myself? Was it that I was godless? I am so worried I will go to Hell because of my doubts…and they odn’t even think about it - they assume since they are Christian, theya re going to heaven. I know that is NOT true…not in the Catholic belief system…is there any hpe for someone like me?

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

Jesus left nothing unfinished on His part. But why would He finish our part. His suffering is to be complemented with ours. Which means in addition to loving Him and having faith in Him we must also endure much suffering.

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Col 1:24)

That’s a different point than the one I was addressing friend.

 

[clem456]

Protestants and Catholics can go round and round with quoting Bible verses to support one another’s positions. It can be pointless if there is no listening going on. In reality many Protestants and Cathoics are very close theologically, but get caught up in the pride of being correct, and argue instead of listening to one another. For instance, most protestants and Catholics have no idea how close Luther was to Catholic theology.

There are many reasons people stray from unity with the one Church Jesus founded.

Some of it is arrogance and pride, dependence solely on one’s own power of reason to find truth outside of salvation history, which by it’s very nature includes the inspired wisdom and gifts of those who came before us, as well as our contemporaries who are given the gift of leadership (Popes, Bishops). We ignore the reality that we are all gifted, some are leaders, some are healers, some are prophets, fathers, mothers. Human beings are gifted by God and our faith didn’t simply fall into our lap outside the context of this human giftedness and history.The bible didn’t fall from the sky yesterday, God inspired human beings to write, compile, interpret, and teach it. How many of you could walk in to the well of the US Senate tomorrow and give a speech on foreigh affairs? If we respect authority and giftedness in such a temporal affair, why is it so difficult in the spiritual realm? If you cut off the legs of gifted humanity, you have little to stand on. Look at the divisions even among Catholics, all of us have pride and obedience is not easy.

Many times people are driven from the Church by Catholics who live the Christian life poorly. The presence of sin is used to justify leaving the Church. We all know people who witnessed sin and fled the Church. Unforunately, human nature being what it is, the people in the church down the street carry the same seeds of evil they thought they left behind. We have a responsibility in this regard… People outside the Church should look at us and want what we have, not want to run from it. So, while protestants make their own choices, we all have a positive role to play in building the Church or tearing it down.

One of the biggest stumbling blocks to evangelization is poorly catechized Catholics, liberal, traditional and in between. If we can explain our doctrine and speak the Gospel properly, with Love and Wisdom, it has it’s own saving power. We do not determine the disposition of souls, that is God’s job. Our responsibility is to bring Christ to the world and trust Him. We have an obligation to be open to the full teaching of the Church at all times, not just select paragraphs and verses. We may think we understand it fully, but it’s a never ending process and a challenging one.

 

[Cathy]

Is there any hope for someone like me?

Dear Lola,

You are asking this at just the right time! These days we are in the middle of the Divine Mercy novena. Next Sunday is Divine Mercy Sunday. Check out marian.org if you haven’t heard of the Divine Mercy devotion. It’s meant to help people like you and me and our children…people with concerns and worries and doubts and misgivings, including those who have left the Church.

I often ask myself the same questions about raising my children. Why didn’t I do more to share the Faith as they were growing under my care?

A couple of days ago, at the 3pm novena at my church, someone was passing out cards with writings from the Church-approved diary of St. Faustina. Here’s the card I was given (perhaps it will help you, too):
“It should be of no concern to you how anyone else acts: you are to be My living reflection, through love and mercy.” Diary, 1446

When I was given this card, I said to the giver, “This isn’t for me. I’m a teacher. I have to be concerned about how other people act.” Then I remembered that I had been planning to write a critical letter to the priest who gave our last parish mission. After reflection I told my friend who had given me the card, “Maybe this is for me after all.”

Let’s agree to pray the chaplet of Divine Mercy for each other and for our children. We all need Divine Mercy. And He wants to give it to us and to our families and loved ones more than we want to receive.

God’s blessings to you and yours this Easter season. He is risen indeed!