Communion alone is ‘not the solution’ for divorced and re-married Catholics, says Pope Francis

[sttcatherinefan]

What is your issue with cohabitation? You think it’s okay for a couple to live together before they are married? Why?

The Church needs to deal with this reality and adjust to it. I’ve known friends who have been told in order to marry in the Church that they must separate from their fiances. This is in Chicago BTW so it isn’t like there are cheap short term rents and they don’t have family near by. They’ve been told tough cookie.

And that is among the middle class. Many poor people in the U.S. and elsewhere find marriage a luxury for economic reasons If you live in a favela and don’t have a baptism certificate present, then it is sort of hard to be married. Even if you live in the U.S. and are currently working three part time jobs you might delay marriage because of economic circumstances.

 

[cena]

The Church needs to deal with this reality and adjust to it. I’ve known friends who have been told in order to marry in the Church that they must separate from their fiances. This is in Chicago BTW so it isn’t like there are cheap short term rents and they don’t have family near by. They’ve been told tough cookie.

And that is among the middle class. Many poor people in the U.S. and elsewhere find marriage a luxury for economic reasons If you live in a favela and don’t have a baptism certificate present, then it is sort of hard to be married. Even if you live in the U.S. and are currently working three part time jobs you might delay marriage because of economic circumstances.

Couldn’t you use “the Church needs to deal with this reality and adjust to it” to justify pretty much anything? Are you even Catholic?

Living together is part of marriage. Again, the Church did not invent marriage it cannot change its rules. I think cohabitation might be a mortal sin.

 

[bisco1]

i was wondering the same thing. seems like a wolf in sheeps clothing. like those calling for communion for politicians in favor of abortion and divorced remarrieds.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Couldn’t you use “the Church needs to deal with this reality and adjust to it” to justify pretty much anything? Are you even Catholic?

Living together is part of marriage. Again, the Church did not invent marriage it cannot change its rules. I think cohabitation might be a mortal sin.

So you don’t want to help people in this situation marry and rectify their situaion? Or do you want to make it as difficult as possible?

As I pointed out it is mainly due to jobs and economics. A young middle class couple in the U.S. might have expenses that make it easy to live together. The major one is real estate. Do you understand how scarce apartments are in major metro areas, how difficult it is to maintain two apartments up to the wedding, and how impossible it is for most couples to find a separate lease? If you do, then you’ll understand why most couples choose to live together. I’m not sure shrieking about it is a good thing. I’d imagine that even those couples who choose to live apart move into together during their engagement. I’ve moved a few times and I’m not sure what you expect; couples to live apart after marriage until one of their leases runs out?

There are also expenses like loans and the fact that many 20 somethings are cobbling together part time jobs or are on temporary contracts to work with. Not to mention the student loans. I’m not sure why you think that someone in that unstable situation wants to contract marriage with those bad work prospects and high debts.

As for poorer people, many of the immigrants cannot even get married. I’m not sure how you expect people living in a crowded slum in Rio without their birth certificates and without even a government identity card to be able to contract marriage.

But hey let’s shriek about people co-habitating being in mortal sin rather than actually addressing the situation. I’m not sure what you think; that yelling loud enough is going to deal with the economic reasons for co-habitation: migration, high rents, high college loans, lack of job stability, etc. Rather shouldn’t the Catholic Church be understanding and address the root causes instead of scolding? I know that scolding has driven people away from the Church.

 

[bisco1]

where were they living before they moved in together, cardboard boxes? we should be helping people to enter heaven, not sell their souls for ‘economic reasons’.

 

[cena]

where were they living before they moved in together, cardboard boxes? we should be helping people to enter heaven, not sell their souls for ‘economic reasons’.

Thank you, I am glad someone is looking out for their salvation not just their temporary situation

 

[ProVobis]

So you don’t want to help people in this situation marry and rectify their situaion?

It may or may not be advantageous financially but that’s not exactly the Church’s idea of the purpose of marriage.

 

[cena]

So you don’t want to help people in this situation marry and rectify their situaion? Or do you want to make it as difficult as possible?

As I pointed out it is mainly due to jobs and economics. A young middle class couple in the U.S. might have expenses that make it easy to live together. The major one is real estate. Do you understand how scarce apartments are in major metro areas, how difficult it is to maintain two apartments up to the wedding, and how impossible it is for most couples to find a separate lease? If you do, then you’ll understand why most couples choose to live together. I’m not sure shrieking about it is a good thing. I’d imagine that even those couples who choose to live apart move into together during their engagement. I’ve moved a few times and I’m not sure what you expect; couples to live apart after marriage until one of their leases runs out?

There are also expenses like loans and the fact that many 20 somethings are cobbling together part time jobs or are on temporary contracts to work with. Not to mention the student loans. I’m not sure why you think that someone in that unstable situation wants to contract marriage with those bad work prospects and high debts.

As for poorer people, many of the immigrants cannot even get married. I’m not sure how you expect people living in a crowded slum in Rio without their birth certificates and without even a government identity card to be able to contract marriage.

But hey let’s shriek about people co-habitating being in mortal sin rather than actually addressing the situation. I’m not sure what you think; that yelling loud enough is going to deal with the economic reasons for co-habitation: migration, high rents, high college loans, lack of job stability, etc. Rather shouldn’t the Catholic Church be understanding and address the root causes instead of scolding? I know that scolding has driven people away from the Church.

Why can’t they get married before cohabiting? Why are they looking for temporary relationships if they have those problems?

Wouldn’t marriage combine their money?

Illegal immigrants get welfare. Illegal immigrants looked down on my mother when she came here legally and became a teacher to get her green card.

Also, someone can just live at home with their parents or get a job or move in with a friend.

 

[cena]

The 1917 Code of Canon Law did remove some of the anathemas implicitly if not directly and the 1984 Code of Canon Law abrogated the 1917 Code but many anathemas have not been effectively removed so you do have legitimate concerns there. But even with the anathemas removed (and I’m uncertain if they have here) there is still underlying doctrina expressed in the Council of Trent documents.

Yes, Pope Francis can’t change Church doctrine.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Why can’t they get married before cohabiting? Why are they looking for temporary relationships if they have those problems?

Wouldn’t marriage combine their money?

Illegal immigrants get welfare. Illegal immigrants looked down on my mother when she came here legally and became a teacher to get her green card.

Also, someone can just live at home with their parents or get a job or move in with a friend.

Many young people living in urban areas aren’t living near family or don’t have any friends with extra room. I knew a couple who was denied marriage in the Church unless they separated. They came from Iowa to Chicago after graduate school and were planning to get married once they were in stable jobs. And this is Chicago we are talking about. It is a pretty expensive real estate market. I personally lived in a small studio apartment until my grandfather died and left me enough money for a downpayment on a condo. The studio apartment cost me over $800 per month. Everyone that I know is struggling because of high rents and either has a studio apartment, is married/ co-habitating and living on two incomes, or is already living with someone. And the couple’s parents lived in Iowa. (And my parents are local but kicked me out at 23 and converted my bedroom into an office, so even local parents don’t want their kids back.) Are they supposed to fly back and forth to Chicago on a daily basis to satisfy the demands of some prudish parish? What is next? Parishes demanding that women undergo virginity tests?

And no, illegal immigrants don’t sit around collecting welfare. Many work long hours at low wage jobs.

 

[cena]

Many young people living in urban areas aren’t living near family or don’t have any friends with extra room. I knew a couple who was denied marriage in the Church unless they separated. They came from Iowa to Chicago after graduate school and were planning to get married once they were in stable jobs. And this is Chicago we are talking about. It is a pretty expensive real estate market. I personally lived in a small studio apartment until my grandfather died and left me enough money for a downpayment on a condo. The studio apartment cost me over $800 per month. Everyone that I know is struggling because of high rents and either has a studio apartment, is married/ co-habitating and living on two incomes, or is already living with someone. And the couple’s parents lived in Iowa. (And my parents are local but kicked me out at 23 and converted my bedroom into an office, so even local parents don’t want their kids back.) Are they supposed to fly back and forth to Chicago on a daily basis to satisfy the demands of some prudish parish? What is next? Parishes demanding that women undergo virginity tests?

And no, illegal immigrants don’t sit around collecting welfare. Many work long hours at low wage jobs.

Why can’t they be married before the live together?

Circumstances don’t make a sin (especially not a mortal sin) okay

 

[ToeInTheWater]

So you don’t want to help people in this situation marry and rectify their situaion? Or do you want to make it as difficult as possible?

Regarding cohabitation, although I believe Pope Francis himself did officiate at the marriage of two people who had been cohabiting, and I personally know Catholics who did cohabitate and married in the Church anyway, so I don’t disagree with this part of your argument.

However, the rest of your posts seem to be suggesting the Church just give a pass to people who cohabitate or have premarital sex, and by suggesting that the vast majority of couples do so, you are totally ignoring and denigrating the sacrifices of people who ARE trying to follow Church teaching.

I’d imagine that even those couples who choose to live apart move into together during their engagement. I’ve moved a few times and I’m not sure what you expect; couples to live apart after marriage until one of their leases runs out?

You’re not even qualifying this with a “most”, do you really think ALL couples move in together during engagement? This is hyperbolic. I know many people who did NOT do so, and I hail from a big city too. I’m not even referring to Catholics, but people who were not that religious and likely had no real moral reasons NOT to move in together before marriage, but who just didn’t see a point to it. (Even a couple where the man was extremely libertarian and I was surprised he DIDN’T!)

I know of a gentleman who literally slept on a rug in a friend’s basement for several weeks instead of staying with his girlfriend, even though they’d been together many years and planned to marry, I have no clue if they were having sex or not but it apparently never occurred to him that cohabiting with her was an option.

Certainly there are economic reasons many single people do not live alone, but there are such things as platonic roommates. There may be limited numbers of cases where the alternative to cohabiting (which isn’t even a sin by itself) with a partner is homelessness or destitution, but when you give a blanket pardon for people who can’t live up to Church teaching, you’re pretty much giving the message that people shouldn’t even try in the first place.

I also agree with prior posters who suggested that the rhetoric used to justify accepting the divorced and remarried into communion would also justify accepting the polygamous. Now note the Church is global, and there are indeed societies where polygamy is legal and socially acceptable. Indeed, the reasons used to justify accepting remarriage, such as people having less culpability due to the secular acceptance of divorce and remarriage or of not disrupting the lives of children by having parents live apart, seem to justify accepting polygamous unions as well.

Indeed, in many such societies, women are completely economically dependent on men, and this is one reason why women are willing to share her husbands with other wives. Couldn’t one say that due to the economics of the situation, Catholics in Africa and elsewhere can be given a pass for having multiple wives, that “forcing” a husband to part with all but one wife is actually cruel, and that prudish people should stop shrieking about it, but deal with reality and accept it.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Why can’t they be married before the live together?

Circumstances don’t make a sin (especially not a mortal sin) okay

Because they don’t have established careers and were in graduate school at the time.

 

[cena]

Because they don’t have established careers and were in graduate school at the time.

You don’t need to have a career to get married. Don’t some people get married in college?

My parents did the exact same thing. They are not an exception just because they are my parents. A sin is still a sin.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Regarding cohabitation, although I believe Pope Francis himself did officiate at the marriage of two people who had been cohabiting, and I personally know Catholics who did cohabitate and married in the Church anyway, so I don’t disagree with this part of your argument.

However, the rest of your posts seem to be suggesting the Church just give a pass to people who cohabitate or have premarital sex, and by suggesting that the vast majority of couples do so, you are totally ignoring and denigrating the sacrifices of people who ARE trying to follow Church teaching.

You’re not even qualifying this with a “most”, do you really think ALL couples move in together during engagement? This is hyperbolic. I know many people who did NOT do so, and I hail from a big city too. I’m not even referring to Catholics, but people who were not that religious and likely had no real moral reasons NOT to move in together before marriage, but who just didn’t see a point to it. (Even a couple where the man was extremely libertarian and I was surprised he DIDN’T!)

I know of a gentleman who literally slept on a rug in a friend’s basement for several weeks instead of staying with his girlfriend, even though they’d been together many years and planned to marry, I have no clue if they were having sex or not but it apparently never occurred to him that cohabiting with her was an option.

Certainly there are economic reasons many single people do not live alone, but there are such things as platonic roommates. There may be limited numbers of cases where the alternative to cohabiting (which isn’t even a sin by itself) with a partner is homelessness or destitution, but when you give a blanket pardon for people who can’t live up to Church teaching, you’re pretty much giving the message that people shouldn’t even try in the first place.

I also agree with prior posters who suggested that the rhetoric used to justify accepting the divorced and remarried into communion would also justify accepting the polygamous. Now note the Church is global, and there are indeed societies where polygamy is legal and socially acceptable. Indeed, the reasons used to justify accepting remarriage, such as people having less culpability due to the secular acceptance of divorce and remarriage or of not disrupting the lives of children by having parents live apart, seem to justify accepting polygamous unions as well.

Indeed, in many such societies, women are completely economically dependent on men, and this is one reason why women are willing to share her husbands with other wives. Couldn’t one say that due to the economics of the situation, Catholics in Africa and elsewhere can be given a pass for having multiple wives, that “forcing” a husband to part with all but one wife is actually cruel, and that prudish people should stop shrieking about it, but deal with reality and accept it.

I didn’t ask about my friends’ sex lives; they were denied marriage not because they were having sex but because they were living together. Even if they agreed to live as brother and sister during their engagement, they would have still been denied marriage at this Church. And most people don’t wish to live on rugs on friends’ apartments nor is it proper to demand it of them. Also, most apartments have clauses in the contract that only allow known people to live there. In every apartment that I’ve lived in, I could get kicked out for having long-term guests.

Also, I’ve heard of the concept of platonic roommates but as a single woman living in the city, I would definitely never live with someone who I didn’t know. Really? That is the set up for becoming the victim of a crime right there. And that doesn’t even get into the petty sort of roommate issues like rent. I’d prefer to live in a smallish studio apartment.

It isn’t shocking that people are living together. At the very least, it is convenient to find a place together while engaged and move in prior to the wedding. Given the fact that it is virtually impossible to find an apartment during certain times of the year and that the contracts are such that it might mean the couple isn’t living together after their marriage, it just makes common sense. The parishes can obviously encourage couples to not have sex while living together which is good practice given that the only form of birth control permitted by the Church involves living as brother and sister during large periods of the year. But let’s stop being horrified with people co-habitating especially those who plan to marry, and demanding that they jump through impossible hoops.

As for polygamy, I could see a situation where the Church has to deal with the fact that a new convert has three wives. The ideal situation would to permit the second/ third wife to remarry but perhaps the culture is such that it is difficult for non-virgins to marry. This would obviously only be for converts, not for people already in the Church.

 

[cena]

I didn’t ask about my friends’ sex lives; they were denied marriage not because they were having sex but because they were living together. Even if they agreed to live as brother and sister during their engagement, they would have still been denied marriage at this Church. And most people don’t wish to live on rugs on friends’ apartments nor is it proper to demand it of them. Also, most apartments have clauses in the contract that only allow known people to live there. In every apartment that I’ve lived in, I could get kicked out for having long-term guests.

Also, I’ve heard of the concept of platonic roommates but as a single woman living in the city, I would definitely never live with someone who I didn’t know. Really? That is the set up for becoming the victim of a crime right there. And that doesn’t even get into the petty sort of roommate issues like rent. I’d prefer to live in a smallish studio apartment.

It isn’t shocking that people are living together. At the very least, it is convenient to find a place together while engaged and move in prior to the wedding. Given the fact that it is virtually impossible to find an apartment during certain times of the year and that the contracts are such that it might mean the couple isn’t living together after their marriage, it just makes common sense. The parishes can obviously encourage couples to not have sex while living together which is good practice given that the only form of birth control permitted by the Church involves living as brother and sister during large periods of the year. But let’s stop being horrified with people co-habitating especially those who plan to marry, and demanding that they jump through impossible hoops.

As for polygamy, I could see a situation where the Church has to deal with the fact that a new convert has three wives. The ideal situation would to permit the second/ third wife to remarry but perhaps the culture is such that it is difficult for non-virgins to marry. This would obviously only be for converts, not for people already in the Church.

Stop trying to justify sin. You could try to justify any sin really, but it does not stop it from offending God or make it okay

 

[sttcatherinefan]

You don’t need to have a career to get married. Don’t some people get married in college?

My parents did the exact same thing. They are not an exception just because they are my parents. A sin is still a sin.

No, people shouldn’t get married in college. Marriage is a serious step and should be taken with lots of care. College students in their early twenties shouldn’t be marrying. In fact, no one should be marrying until they have established careers and are adults. Doing something stupid like marrying in college is a recipe for divorce.

And what a great daughter you are judging your parents!

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Stop trying to justify sin. You could try to justify any sin really, but it does not stop it from offending God or make it okay

Perhaps if you want to stop sin, then start with the root cause. How about dealing with the student debt? Or perhaps ensuring that college kids can get decent jobs? Or how about ensuring that there is affordable housing and that leases aren’t so complicated and that it is easy to get out of them? How about we deal with those rather than shrieking about the fact that people are living together?

 

[cena]

No, people shouldn’t get married in college. Marriage is a serious step and should be taken with lots of care. College students in their early twenties shouldn’t be marrying. In fact, no one should be marrying until they have established careers and are adults. Doing something stupid like marrying in college is a recipe for divorce.

And what a great daughter you are judging your parents!

No one should be living together if they are in a romantic relationship. Living together is for marriage. Now if they had a friend or a family member that’s okay.

I’m not going to say a sin is okay just because the two people that committed it are my parents. I judged that they made a mistake, not that they are bad people. It’s never okay to commit a sin no matter who you are

 

[cena]

Perhaps if you want to stop sin, then start with the root cause. How about dealing with the student debt? Or perhaps ensuring that college kids can get decent jobs? Or how about ensuring that there is affordable housing and that leases aren’t so complicated and that it is easy to get out of them? How about we deal with those rather than shrieking about the fact that people are living together?

A lot of college kids are choosing majors(like English literature) that aren’t marketable and won’t give them a good job.

Okay we can deal with those problems, but that does not justify cohabitation. Why can’t people room with friends? Don’t people have more friends than their one girlfriend or boyfriend?