Communion at Protestant churches

[Theodore]

The body of Christ already has Christ as its head. In this case, two heads are NOT better than one.

Ummm !! i did say “VISIBLE HEAD” Hence, Pope Benedict XVI. ( VICAR of CHRIST)

 

[Theodore]

Ah, making it up as you go. Catholics changed the Gregorain kalender to read “ordinary time” in the weeks following Pentecost instead of counting the weeks past like the early church did. And they changed how the Eucharist is received from the early church from kneeling at the rail to standing. i guess its ok for them to do this but when someone else makes changes it is called Protestantism. Talk about making it up as you go along.

Maybe you should learn more about the Catholic Faith before making such statements … After all there is a difference between “disciplines” and “dogma” … as far as kneeling and standing that is a dicipline, not doctrine or dogma…

 

[Nella]

Maybe you should learn more about the Catholic Faith before making such statements … After all there is a difference between “disciplines” and “dogma” … as far as kneeling and standing that is a dicipline, not doctrine or dogma…

so what? It is still part of the church isn’t it.

 

[Nella]

maybe you should care more about your faith to include everything.

 

[jmcrae]

The body of Christ already has Christ as its head. In this case, two heads are NOT better than one.

Christ’s Kingdom is a Royal Kingdom. It has a Queen, who is the mother of the King (following the tradition of the Kingdom of David), and a Prime Minister who has been appointed by the King, just like all Royal Kingdoms should have, along with thousands of royal officials and their delegates taking care of the various territories of the Kingdom.

Christ’s Church does not have “two heads” - it does, however, have a fully functional and fully integrated body.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Ummm !! i did say “VISIBLE HEAD” Hence, Pope Benedict XVI. ( VICAR of CHRIST)

Yes, you did. I did not ignore that. I assume that though Christ is not visible that this does not mean he is not the head of the Church. The Pope may be the chief administrator of the Catholic church (jmcrae’s view of a Prime Minister works here), but I think that seeing him as the visible head either makes the Catholic church a two-headed creature, or leads to the view that many Catholics have (not accusing you personally) that the Pope is the equal of Christ on earth. Both I think are bad theology.

Now surely the Pope can be Christ’s representative on earth; I’m not disputing that. But such a role is not limited strictly to the Pope nor to any single person, for we are all Christ’s ambassadors. The Pope, like the rest of us, is a member of Christ’s body not its head.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, you did. I did not ignore that. I assume that though Christ is not visible that this does not mean he is not the head of the Church. The Pope may be the chief administrator of the Catholic church (jmcrae’s view of a Prime Minister works here), but I think that seeing him as the visible head either makes the Catholic church a two-headed creature, or leads to the view that many Catholics have (not accusing you personally) that the Pope is the equal of Christ on earth. Both I think are bad theology.

The Catholic Church would agree with you. I have never met any Catholic who thinks that the Pope is equal with Christ.

Now surely the Pope can be Christ’s representative on earth; I’m not disputing that. But such a role is not limited strictly to the Pope nor to any single person, for we are all Christ’s ambassadors. The Pope, like the rest of us, is a member of Christ’s body not its head.

The Pope is the person that Christ put in charge to administrate the Church. (See John 21:15-19)

An analogy I like to use is that of a business.

A business owner puts one person in charge of his office, so that he can be free to come and go as he pleases. Everyone knows who owns the company, but they also know that if they disobey the administrator, they will still get fired - the administrator has the authority to fire them if they don’t do as they are told.

Just because the Pope is not the top guy doesn’t mean he isn’t higher than us in God’s chain of command.

Many Protestants seem to have the idea that either we all have the same amount of authority (which ultimately results in nobody having any authority) or else those who have greater authority than we do are somehow equating themselves with God. Both of these ideas are false.

In a business, everyone knows that the administrator is not equal with the company owner, and they also know that the administrator has greater authority than they do with regard to the operation of the company.

It’s the same thing with the Church - the Pope has greater authority than we do, but he is not equal to Christ.

 

[Theodore]

and by gosh, this is exactly what Martin Luther challenged!

Martin Luther was a victim of his own conscience,the Doctrine of hell terified him, he thought he was predestined for hell,( Predestination, doctrine of Luther) “Sin Bravely but Beleive more Bravely” that there was no need for a church, anyone could interpret scripture, (the Fundamental Option) he needed an excuse to jump ship, when he found his excuse he took it with both hands. It’s hard to be humble, and to subject one self to AUTHORITY…

 

[Theodore]

maybe you should care more about your faith to include everything.

As i said, why don’t you find out more about the Catholic church, and tell me when they changed any of their Doctrine …

 

[Nella]

Martin Luther was a victim of his own conscience,the Doctrine of hell terified him, he thought he was predestined for hell,( Predestination, doctrine of Luther) “Sin Bravely but Beleive more Bravely” that there was no need for a church, anyone could interpret scripture, (the Fundamental Option) he needed an excuse to jump ship, when he found his excuse he took it with both hands. It’s hard to be humble, and to subject one self to AUTHORITY…

You seem to think you know much about what Luther thought for someone who didn’t witness these things personally. You are well rooted in your churches despise of Luther. Too bad you couldn’t cut through some of that ego and focus on why he truly left the Roman church.

 

[Theodore]

See, as I read Paul’s letters and the book of Acts (even the letters of early church fathers) I think it always was how the Church viewed itself.

The present Catholic view is something that appears to have developed later, beginning with its commendable efforts to defend the faith from heresies. But then there developed an attitude that if you’re not in 100% agreement with the me, that you’re wrong. And suddenly, we have patriarchs and popes excommunicating each other and any bishop who dares to cross them. (What do they say about absolute power corrupting absolutely? I’m thinking the gates of hell may have corrupted some of the Catholic churches view of itself.) Thus for the gates of hell to NOT prevail against the Church it needs to abandon this “I’m the one and only view” it has of itself and realize that this is not what God intended. If it doesn’t, then like all human institutions, expect that one day God will bring Roman Catholicism crashing down in favor of the one true Church that exists in the fellowship of Christian who do see the body of Christ as Paul described it composed of many members but one body. For as the Catholic church rightly teaches, the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ’s Church, it is just that there is more to Christ’s Church than is recognized by the Catholic Church, so it had better get on board or get left out in the cold crying, “Lord, Lord” only to hear those terrible words, “I never knew you.”

 The Catholic Church is as such . One and Only, Universal, and there can only be one VISIBLE Head...  As far as Christ saying to his own Church "I never knew you" would be like saying that Christ deceived the Church he instituted.

"And i will be with you even untill the end of time "

 

[Theodore]

You seem to think you know much about what Luther thought for someone who didn’t witness these things personally. You are well rooted in your churches despise of Luther. Too bad you couldn’t cut through some of that ego and focus on why he truly left the Roman church.

You are correct in working out that i could never have witnessed those things personally, hence the " HISTORY BOOKS " as far as despising Luther, they are your words, NOT MINE… To say i don’t admire some one doesn’t mean i despise that person. Just goes to show how easy it is to misinterpret some one. As far as Ego, read your history books, and then decide who has the EGO !!!

 

[Theodore]

Yes, you did. I did not ignore that. I assume that though Christ is not visible that this does not mean he is not the head of the Church. The Pope may be the chief administrator of the Catholic church (jmcrae’s view of a Prime Minister works here), but I think that seeing him as the visible head either makes the Catholic church a two-headed creature, or leads to the view that many Catholics have (not accusing you personally) that the Pope is the equal of Christ on earth. Both I think are bad theology.

Now surely the Pope can be Christ’s representative on earth; I’m not disputing that. But such a role is not limited strictly to the Pope nor to any single person, for we are all Christ’s ambassadors. The Pope, like the rest of us, is a member of Christ’s body not its head.[/QUOT]

The Pope has never ever equated himself as an equal of Christ, it is only when it comes to defending the church against error that the Vicar of Christ speaks from the chair of Peter. For where Peter is so is the Church … On the other hand where in Scripture did Christ say “we can all interpret scripture without error” in fact, Paul and the other Apostles constantly warnes us against this erroneous beleive.

 

[Theodore]

maybe you should care more about your faith to include everything.

I do care about my Catholic Faith, and all that it teaches. But disciplines do change not only in the Church but also outside the Church. To deny that, would be to deny progress.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

"And i will be with you even untill the end of time "

What makes you think that this statement was directed to the Catholic church?

Jesus said this directly to his disciples, if it was to include more than the 11, and I agree with you that it does, then it would seem to be to be spoken to all individuals who become disciples of Jesus, not an institution.

The Pope has never ever equated himself as an equal of Christ, it is only when it comes to defending the church against error that the Vicar of Christ speaks from the chair of Peter. For where Peter is so is the Church … On the other hand where in Scripture did Christ say “we can all interpret scripture without error” in fact, Paul and the other Apostles constantly warnes us against this erroneous beleive.

Where in scripture? How about John 16:13: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.” All Christians have the one and same Spirit, and thus all Christians have access to the truth. One need not be Catholic to access to the truth through the Holy Spirit, and being Catholic does not guarantee one more or better access to the truth than not being would.

 

[Nella]

You are correct in working out that i could never have witnessed those things personally, hence the " HISTORY BOOKS " as far as despising Luther, they are your words, NOT MINE… To say i don’t admire some one doesn’t mean i despise that person. Just goes to show how easy it is to misinterpret some one. As far as Ego, read your history books, and then decide who has the EGO !!!

I can see “ego” perfectly clear in the present day RC by them thwarting their responsibilities for so long to the victims of their propagated scandal. I saw and experienced plenty of blind “ego” for decades.

 

[jmcrae]

What makes you think that this statement was directed to the Catholic church?

Who else was there, at the time?

Jesus said this directly to his disciples, if it was to include more than the 11, and I agree with you that it does, then it would seem to be to be spoken to all individuals who become disciples of Jesus, not an institution.

An institution comes about when several like-minded individuals come together for a common cause.

For example, a school is an institution, because it is a gathering of individuals for the common cause of education in a particular discipline or set of disciplines. A family, which is the foundational institution of society, comes about when two individuals join together for the common cause of making a safe and happy home.

When the disciples came together with Jesus, the institution of the Catholic Church was established upon them. Nor was this accidental - Peter and the disciples certainly knew that they had the responsibility of promulgating the Gospel to the world, and they didn’t attempt to do this in any sort of ad hoc “lone ranger” style - they banded together, hashed things out, and created norms and guidelines for their various activities.

Those who joined with the disciples became joined to that same Church, and over time, it came to be known as the Catholic Church - it was already being referred to as such by 110 AD, when St. Ignatius of Antioch said, “Where the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church,” while exhorting the people to remain united with their Bishops and obey their instructions, rather than attempt to “re-invent” the Christian “wheel.”

 

[Theodore]

I can see “ego” perfectly clear in the present day RC by them thwarting their responsibilities for so long to the victims of their propagated scandal. I saw and experienced plenty of blind “ego” for decades.

No doubt you did, as we all have, even against our own Pollies, and our non Christian brothers and sisters. If there is corruption in your Government does that make all politicians corrupt ? If your local politician was morally unethical, would you say that all politicians are the same… Or would you dis-own your own country if there was evidence of corruption ?? “to Tar every one with same brush is a gross injustice”, especially to the Saints that have died for the Catholic ( Universal, whole) beleive.

May God give you Peace…

 

[viper78912]

Anyone can receive spiritual Communion by asking for forgiveness for our sins and desiring to receive Jesus.
Is Spiritual Communion less effective than Sacramental Communion?
The Church should emulate the Holy Father who has prayed in a mosque. CCC 819 also advises us to dialogue with other religions. The eulogy of Pope John Paul II was written by Billy Graham.
“That all may be one…” John 17.11. denis

 

[Theodore]

Anyone can receive spiritual Communion by asking for forgiveness for our sins and desiring to receive Jesus.
Is Spiritual Communion less effective than Sacramental Communion?
The Church should emulate the Holy Father who has prayed in a mosque. CCC 819 also advises us to dialogue with other religions. The eulogy of Pope John Paul II was written by Billy Graham.
“That all may be one…” John 17.11. denis

Sacramental Communion is more effective than Spiritual Communion, it is when we truely receive the Body and Blood of Our Lord JESUS CHRIST.