Communion in the hand

[Cat]

We kneel at the consecration, and we kneel to receive. We are not Protestants, and it’s about time we stop acting like it. (“we” meaning everyone today who claims to be Catholic)

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Are you saying that Eastern Catholics, who have generally stood to receive communion, have no right to claim to be Catholic? Or that they are acting like Protestants by so doing?

FWIW, Protestants have historically either sat or knelt to receive communion, not stood.

I might add, it would be VERY difficult and dangerous to receive from the spoon (the usualy practice in Byzantine Churches) if kneeling.

Although there are still many mainline Protestants in the U.S., these denominations are declining rapidly, and the majority of Protestants are evangelical/Pentecostal.

These fellowships receive communion, which is just a symbol, sitting in their pew, while a plate of bread cubes or broken matzo pieces is passed up and down the aisles by ushers. This is followed by tiny plastic cups of grape juice, not wine, on a plate.

Whether or not you eat the cracker right away, or wait until everyone is served, varies from fellowship to fellowship, but if you wait until all are served, you inevitably “play” with the cracker in your fingers.

Many evangelical churches don’t even do this much with communion anymore; instead, the communion plates with the crackers and grape juice are set out in the back of the church, and people help themselves.

So I think you are a long long way from acting “Protestant” because you stand to receive the Lord Jesus (the True Presence, not a symbol) in the hand.

 

[cmom]

If you go read St Justin Martyr you will see Communion was distributed by deacons, so obviously people other than priests or bishops could touch the bread.

 

[una_fides]

Since taking the Eucharist in the hand is a “deplorable lack of respect toward the Eucharist”, **why do the bishops allow **the little children to be taught to receive communion in the hand at First Holy Communion. Shouldn’t they at least be told they have the option to receive in the hand or on the tongue and in doing so eventually take away the option to take the Eucharist in the hand? It would be a slow process but to me it would seem a step in the right direction.

Simple answer: bishops allow a lot of things now-a-days that they shouldn’t. Permissiveness and desire to not offend or cause contention seems to be the rule of the day.

 

[una_fides]

I’m gonna quote a theologian from another list I am on who is discussing this very issue. He is using Fr. Joseph A. Jungmann’s benchmark 2 vol. set, The Mass of the Roman Rite, Its Origins and Development

"St Thomas Aquinas St. Thomas was NOT fluent in Greek as he was in Latin.

St. Thomas used other people’s translations from Greek to Latin in his works. He knew some Greek, but not enough to write Greek, let alone to trust his own ability to translate Greek to Latin.

Most of the experts on the history of Thomas state that the Greek documents from the the period of the Infant Church were — for the most part not available to Thomas. Ergo, Thomas would not have had these kinds of texts available to him.

To anyone who really has any kind of in-depth knowledge of Thomas, his history, education, scholarship, and writing patterns - and last but not least - HIS GREAT RESPECT FOR THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION: If Thomas had been aware that the Universal practice in the Infanct Church - as it was established and taught by the Apostles - was for Deacons to be regular ministers of the Eucharist - even the most prominent ones in certain periods… Thomas would never have stated some of the things he did about Deacons and the Eucharist.

From the encyclical Aeterni Patris by Pope Leo XIII. A couple quick gems:
Innocent VI: “His [Aquinas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.”
22. The ecumenical councils, also, where blossoms the flower of all earthly wisdom, have always been careful to hold Thomas Aquinas in singular honor. In the Councils of Lyons, Vienna, Florence, and the Vatican one might almost say that Thomas took part and presided over the deliberations and decrees of the Fathers…
We exhort you, venerable brethren, in all earnestness to restore the golden wisdom of St. Thomas, and to spread it far and wide for the defense and beauty of the Catholic faith, for the good of society, and for the advantage of all the sciences… Let carefully selected teachers endeavor to implant the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas in the minds of students, and set forth clearly his solidity and excellence over others. papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13cph.htm

 

[una_fides]

If you go read St Justin Martyr you will see Communion was distributed by deacons, so obviously people other than priests or bishops could touch the bread.

So now I have to read all the writings of St. Justin Martyr in hopes to find what you claim? Can you quote it or provide a link or something to substantiate your claims here?

 

[JPUSC]

I might add, it would be VERY difficult and dangerous to receive from the spoon (the usualy practice in Byzantine Churches) if kneeling.

An Orthodox website says that the alcohol in the wine takes care of the bacteria. But anyway, I’m glad it’s not a practice in the Latin Rite Catholic Church!

I don’t know if alcohol easily kills bloodborne diseases, such as HIV, Hepatitis B and C, which could contaminate the spoon from a wound in the mouth.

 

[Walking_Home]

If you go read St Justin Martyr you will see Communion was distributed by deacons, so obviously people other than priests or bishops could touch the bread.

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The deacons are ordained so they are not quite the same as the laity.

 

[una_fides]

If you go read St Justin Martyr you will see Communion was distributed by deacons, so obviously people other than priests or bishops could touch the bread.

I realize you are referring to the Body of Christ by its appearance rather than its substance after the change takes place. Perhaps for clarification you could refer to it as “the Body of Christ,” “The Blessed Sacrament,” “The Eucharist,” etc rather than just “the bread,” which some could take as if you didn’t believe in the Real Presence. We wouldn’t want to give the wrong impression.

 

[cmom]

A short bit on Communion in general:
At the Lateran IV in 1215 the Church made it a rule that you have to recieve Communion once a year. Why? Because people had ceased receiving Communion at all. The twin heresies of the Eucharist being a mere symbol, and people being totally unworthy to recieve Jesus kep t people away from Communion. The Council of Trent reformed the Mass to make it more accessible, by problems remained. The emphasis on Christ’s divinity still kept people from Communion. People used to run from Church to Church to SEE communion rather than receive Communion. Pope Pius X (1903-1914) encouraged the use of Gregorian chant, frequent Communion and lowering the age for First Communion to seven years Pius XII published Mediator Dei in1947. In 1951 Joseph Jungmann, S.J., published The Mass of the Roman Rite, that revealed the complex history of the Mass. Vatican II published the Constitution on the Liturgy .

 

[cmom]

I realize you are referring to the Body of Christ by its appearance rather than its substance after the change takes place. Perhaps for clarification you could refer to it as “the Body of Christ,” “The Blessed Sacrament,” “The Eucharist,” etc rather than just “the bread,” which some could take as if you didn’t believe in the Real Presence. We wouldn’t want to give the wrong impression.

Sorry. I used bread because at that point it wouldn’t have been a host and I had a senior-brain moment and couldn’t think of how to say it.

 

[cmom]

From the encyclical Aeterni Patris by Pope Leo XIII. A couple quick gems:
Innocent VI: “His [Aquinas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.”
22. The ecumenical councils, also, where blossoms the flower of all earthly wisdom, have always been careful to hold Thomas Aquinas in singular honor. In the Councils of Lyons, Vienna, Florence, and the Vatican one might almost say that Thomas took part and presided over the deliberations and decrees of the Fathers…
We exhort you, venerable brethren, in all earnestness to restore the golden wisdom of St. Thomas, and to spread it far and wide for the defense and beauty of the Catholic faith, for the good of society, and for the advantage of all the sciences… Let carefully selected teachers endeavor to implant the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas in the minds of students, and set forth clearly his solidity and excellence over others. papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13cph.htm

You can’t blame the guy if he didn’t speak greek and had access to only latin texts!

 

[passus]

I don’t know if alcohol easily kills bloodborne diseases, such as HIV, Hepatitis B and C, which could contaminate the spoon from a wound in the mouth.

The spoon doesn’t actually go into the mouth. The priest simply drops the Blessed Sacrament from the spoon onto the tongue of the recipient.

 

[Walking_Home]

A short bit on Communion in general:
At the Lateran IV in 1215 the Church made it a rule that you have to recieve Communion once a year. Why? Because people had ceased receiving Communion at all. The twin heresies of the Eucharist being a mere symbol, and people being totally unworthy to recieve Jesus kep t people away from Communion. The Council of Trent reformed the Mass to make it more accessible, by problems remained. **The emphasis on Christ’s divinity still kept people from Communion. People used to run from Church to Church to SEE communion rather than receive Communion. **Pope Pius X (1903-1914) encouraged the use of Gregorian chant, frequent Communion and lowering the age for First Communion to seven years Pius XII published Mediator Dei in1947. In 1951 Joseph Jungmann, S.J., published The Mass of the Roman Rite, that revealed the complex history of the Mass. Vatican II published the Constitution on the Liturgy .

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Seems to be we are in an age where the opposite is being made apparent – to much emphasis on low Christology. To much emphasis -the buddy Jesus —to where Jesus as Lord and God is being diminished. Anyone can handle Him —ordained or not.

 

[cmom]

So now I have to read all the writings of St. Justin Martyr in hopes to find what you claim? Can you quote it or provide a link or something to substantiate your claims here?

First Apology:Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

 

[cmom]

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Seems to be we are in an age where the opposite is being made apparent – to much emphasis on low Christology. To much emphasis -the buddy Jesus —to where Jesus as Lord and God is being diminished. Anyone can handle Him —ordained or not.

The hardest thing for the church or indeed an individual is to maintain a sense of balance. Its been 40 years since the council and things are herading back in the right direction. Praise God.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’ve heard stories

This is not proof.

Frankly I do not believe you.

I will stand with the Church on this.

 

[una_fides]

You can’t blame the guy if he didn’t speak greek and had access to only latin texts!

sources here please? also do you really think it makes a substantial difference even if he was relying on secondary translations? can you prove by actually citing real sources on here that he missed something as a result? so far, you are making lots of accusations against the angelic doctor without citing anything in support. many today enjoy assailing st. thomas in hopes to thereby discredit him and the rest of his writings (which have been given a higher place and more magisterial approval than the writings of any other saint in the 2000 year history of the Church (other than writings in SS of course), and they most often do so in order to promote their heterodox opinions. i’m confident that if i hold to the teachings of St. Thomas then as the popes I’ve cited have promised, I will never be departing from the path of the truth. If someone, however, wishes to assail his writings, as the popes have said, they will always be suspect of error. Questioning is permissible, but to assail him or his writings brings with it the automatic assumption that the person doing so is in error. Such a person then bears a great burden of proof to thereby overcome.

 

[una_fides]

A short bit on Communion in general:
At the Lateran IV in 1215 the Church made it a rule that you have to recieve Communion once a year. Why? Because people had ceased receiving Communion at all. The twin heresies of the Eucharist being a mere symbol, and people being totally unworthy to recieve Jesus kep t people away from Communion. The Council of Trent reformed the Mass to make it more accessible, by problems remained. The emphasis on Christ’s divinity still kept people from Communion. People used to run from Church to Church to SEE communion rather than receive Communion. Pope Pius X (1903-1914) encouraged the use of Gregorian chant, frequent Communion and lowering the age for First Communion to seven years Pius XII published Mediator Dei in1947. In 1951 Joseph Jungmann, S.J., published The Mass of the Roman Rite, that revealed the complex history of the Mass. Vatican II published the Constitution on the Liturgy .

I wouldn’t be so sure to say that there was a serious problem with people not receiving Communion then any more than them not going to confession then either. People went to confession quite frequently, yet the Church also made the rule that one must go to confession at least once a year. What is worse? Receiving the holy Eucharist once a year or receiving the Eucharist just one time outside of the state of grace? I could easily even argue that it would be better to never receive the Eucharist at all, than to receive just one time outside the state of grace. A de-emphasis on the divinity of Christ in the Eucharist only leads to sacralidge and a lack of faith.

1 Cor 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep.

 

[una_fides]

This is not proof.

Frankly I do not believe you.

I will stand with the Church on this.

If you don’t believe me, then you are naive at best. But I’m glad to hear that you will “stand with the Church.” I take it then that you would agree with the Church that there have been “many many many abuses since Vatican II.” You also would have to agree with this post that I also referenced in my post as proving my point with evidence from the Church: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4710309&postcount=28
Perhaps you should read it and then we can talk ok.

Unless you can cite where the Church has said that abuses have NOT taken place as a result of Communion in the hand, your original position that you are somehow “standing with the Church” on this issue seems unattainable at best.

 

[maurin]

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Seems to be we are in an age where the opposite is being made apparent – to much emphasis on low Christology. To much emphasis -the buddy Jesus —to where Jesus as Lord and God is being diminished. Anyone can handle Him —ordained or not.

hardly surprising since–lex orandi lex credendi–“Eucharistic Prayer” #2 hardly makes a distinction between the Ministerial Priesthood and that of the Laity.