Communion in the hand

[cmom]

sources here please? also do you really think it makes a substantial difference even if he was relying on secondary translations? can you prove by actually citing real sources on here that he missed something as a result? so far, you are making lots of accusations against the angelic doctor without citing anything in support. many today enjoy assailing st. thomas in hopes to thereby discredit him and the rest of his writings (which have been given a higher place and more magisterial approval than the writings of any other saint in the 2000 year history of the Church (other than writings in SS of course), and they most often do so in order to promote their heterodox opinions. i’m confident that if i hold to the teachings of St. Thomas then as the popes I’ve cited have promised, I will never be departing from the path of the truth. If someone, however, wishes to assail his writings, as the popes have said, they will always be suspect of error. Questioning is permissible, but to assail him or his writings brings with it the automatic assumption that the person doing so is in error. Such a person then bears a great burden of proof to thereby overcome.

"I am quoting what we are discussing at another forum, the discussion lead by Desmond Birch of EWTN.
"If St. Thomas had had access to the documents from the Infant Church written virtually exclusively in Greek - which Thomas couldn’t read, he would have been aware of 2 items which would have led him to modify the things he most assuredly did write on this subject - such as only the priest was to administer the Sacrament.

Well, that has never been the case in the Church. But Thomas didn’t know that - or he wouln’t have written several things he did about the proper distribution of the Eucharist.

He didn’t know:

a. The laity in the infant Church were (and I shall provide text and sources tomorrow) allowed by their Bishops to not only touch the sacred hosts - but to take them home with them to communicate themselves as they felt the need.

b. He would have known that the Deacons did as much and sometimes more service in distributing communion at Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Infant Church trained by the Apostles than the priests did. This is simply attested to in various Sacramentaries in the Infant Church. "

 

[Walking_Home]

The hardest thing for the church or indeed an individual is to maintain a sense of balance. Its been 40 years since the council and things are herading back in the right direction. Praise God.

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What direction would that be —a direction some may consider the “right” direction as in low Christology–that diminishes the divinity of our Lord – or —back to the **right **direction of High Christology – Jesus —my Lord and my God.

 

[una_fides]

First Apology:Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Thank you for this source. I’ve read a lot of Church fathers, but interestingly I’ve never read this before.
I found a link to the entire text online. I found this part of the preceding chapter interesting:

“And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

 

[Walking_Home]

hardly surprising since–lex orandi lex credendi–“Eucharistic Prayer” #2 hardly makes a distinction between the Ministerial Priesthood and that of the Laity.

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It seems there is also a wave to not make a distinction between God and us–the creature.

 

[una_fides]

First Apology:Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
…And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. …

The only thing this reference proves is that in that time at that place it appears that deacons brought the Eucharist to those who were unable to receive. It does not say anything at all about laity taking home Communion with them or about deacons distributing Communion at Mass. Unless you have other sources, you have not substantiated your claims other than what I just pointed out.

 

[pnewton]

Since I am having trouble believing this, I’m wondering if you are an ordained deacon.

Per the rules, titles can not be used in user names unless they are legit. I know from dealing with CAF moderators on another guy, they do check in and verify such things so that no one can deceive others here by posing as clergy.

 

[cmom]

The only thing this reference proves is that in that time at that place it appears that deacons brought the Eucharist to those who were unable to receive. It does not say anything at all about laity taking home Communion with them or about deacons distributing Communion at Mass. Unless you have other sources, you have not substantiated your claims other than what I just pointed out.

I’m getting there, I have to go thru pages of posts…

 

[dg5887]

It seems to me in every thread that there are two sides to everything. This is right, this is wrong. It is very nervewracking. I am very much in love with God and the Church He founded. I desire to please God with all my heart. Why do we all feel we need to say what is right and what isn’t concerning the Church? Why do we feel we have to prove this was started in error or that what someone else said proves this or that? Can we not trust in the Vicar of Christ and his Bishops? Why do we feel we know better than them. If the Chruch allows something then by what merit or knowledge do we have to say she is wrong. If all the energy we use in these forums was used for the conversion of non believers then we would really be doing the will of God. Trust! Trust that the church will not teach error. God knows what is in our hearts. If whatever way we recieve communion God knows is reverant in our hearts, then can we really do wrong? God Bless!

 

[Walking_Home]

It seems to me in every thread that there are two sides to everything. This is right, this is wrong. It is very nervewracking. I am very much in love with God and the Church He founded. I desire to please God with all my heart. Why do we all feel we need to say what is right and what isn’t concerning the Church? Why do we feel we have to prove this was started in error or that what someone else said proves this or that? Can we not trust in the Vicar of Christ and his Bishops? Why do we feel we know better than them. If the Chruch allows something then by what merit or knowledge do we have to say she is wrong. If all the energy we use in these forums was used for the conversion of non believers then we would really be doing the will of God. Trust! Trust that the church will not teach error. God knows what is in our hearts. If whatever way we recieve communion God knows is reverant in our hearts, then can we really do wrong? God Bless!

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Trust the Church is one thing —the people in the Church is another. I have been a member in this site long enough to read --where Hosts have been found on the floor, in the pews, parking lot, etc. —where people have been caught trying to walk away with the Host. Only once have I read where in one place ( here in Tx.) --communion in the hand was withdrawn because of profanation or such. What is happening in those other places. Why are the priests and Bishops dropping the ball --when this concerns a most important aspect of our Faith --our Lord’s presence in the Eucharist.

Below is what the Church directs in this matter.

RS–2004

92.] Although each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice,[178] if any communicant should wish to receive the Sacrament in the hand, in areas where the Bishops’ Conference with the recognitio of the Apostolic See has given permission, the sacred host is to be administered to him or her. However, special care should be taken to ensure that the host is consumed by the communicant in the presence of the minister, so that no one goes away carrying the Eucharistic species in his hand. If there is a risk of profanation, then Holy Communion should not be given in the hand to the faithful.[179]

 

[rinnie]

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Trust the Church is one thing —the people in the Church is another. I have been a member in this site long enough to read --where Hosts have been found on the floor, in the pews, parking lot, etc. —where people have been caught trying to walk away with the Host. Only once have I read where in one place ( here in Tx.) --communion in the hand was withdrawn because of profanation or such. What is happening in those other places. Why are the priests and Bishops dropping the ball --when this concerns a most important aspect of our Faith --our Lord’s presence in the Eucharist.

Below is what the Church directs in this matter.

RS–2004

92.] Although each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice,[178] if any communicant should wish to receive the Sacrament in the hand, in areas where the Bishops’ Conference with the recognitio of the Apostolic See has given permission, the sacred host is to be administered to him or her. However, special care should be taken to ensure that the host is consumed by the communicant in the presence of the minister, so that no one goes away carrying the Eucharistic species in his hand. If there is a risk of profanation, then Holy Communion should not be given in the hand to the faithful.[179]

I would say that this quote sums it up. Again I knew that the Church would never do something that would be an out and out sin. Thank you for finding out the truth. It saves me from asking Father on Sunday.

APOSTOLIC SEE HAS GIVEN PERMISSION. That is all anyone should need to hear.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If you don’t believe me, then you are naive at best. But I’m glad to hear that you will “stand with the Church.” I take it then that you would agree with the Church that there have been “many many many abuses since Vatican II.” You also would have to agree with this post that I also referenced in my post as proving my point with evidence from the Church: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4710309&postcount=28
Perhaps you should read it and then we can talk ok.

Unless you can cite where the Church has said that abuses have NOT taken place as a result of Communion in the hand, your original position that you are somehow “standing with the Church” on this issue seems unattainable at best.

I believe you do not know the definition of the word naive. I would be naive if I believed some anonymous poster to an internet site who says that he has heard “stories” form other people.

By the way, that is called hearsay and does not meet any evidentiary requirements in any court of law.

As for the Church admitting there has been problems, if this is true, there is still no reason why reception on the tongue could not also be abused. It is easy for someone to spit the Body back out after reception.

Again, I will stand with the Church and what it teaches over what you say.

 

[Lemonja]

I agree. It has lead to a disbelief in the Real Presence of Christ and to many many abuses and sacrilegious acts. I kneel when I receive Communion no matter where I’m at. I don’t see how any one can consider it a norm to receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ into our bodies standing, as if it were no big deal and when we know all the angels and saints are KNEELING before His Presence. We kneel at the consecration, and we kneel to receive. We are not Protestants, and it’s about time we stop acting like it. (“we” meaning everyone today who claims to be Catholic)

Be adult in your faith: angels are representation, not “reality”, I mean: angels have no body like you!
Kneel your heart, not your legs!
I distributed communion to sick people, on their bed, to agony people…

And last, what do you mean by “Protestants”? Call them kindly, at least, “Lutherans” or “Anglicans”, not “Protestants”!

 

[rinnie]

Be adult in your faith: angels are representation, not “reality”, I mean: angels have no body like you!
Kneel your heart, not your legs!
I distributed communion to sick people, on their bed, to agony people…

And last, what do you mean by “Protestants”? Call them kindly, at least, “Lutherans” or “Anglicans”, not “Protestants”!

In all do respect isn’t anyone that protests the Catholic Church Protestant?

 

[Member]

Although there are still many mainline Protestants in the U.S., these denominations are declining rapidly, and the majority of Protestants are evangelical/Pentecostal.

These fellowships receive communion, which is just a symbol, sitting in their pew, while a plate of bread cubes or broken matzo pieces is passed up and down the aisles by ushers. This is followed by tiny plastic cups of grape juice, not wine, on a plate.

Whether or not you eat the cracker right away, or wait until everyone is served, varies from fellowship to fellowship, but if you wait until all are served, you inevitably “play” with the cracker in your fingers.

Many evangelical churches don’t even do this much with communion anymore; instead, the communion plates with the crackers and grape juice are set out in the back of the church, and people help themselves.

So I think you are a long long way from acting “Protestant” because you stand to receive the Lord Jesus (the True Presence, not a symbol) in the hand.

Because my mother-in-law is Lutheran, I have witnessed the receiving of communion by her minister in the hospital. To my surprise, she received the host on her tongue and the wine was distributed by the minister, as well. If there is this kind of respect for a symbol of the Eucharist, why do we show such little respect for the consecrated host?

 

[Walking_Home]

In all do respect isn’t anyone that protests the Catholic Church Protestant?

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Yes – Lutheran, Anglican, non-Denoms, etc—are all protestants.

 

[una_fides]

I believe you do not know the definition of the word naive. I would be naive if I believed some anonymous poster to an internet site who says that he has heard “stories” form other people.

By the way, that is called hearsay and does not meet any evidentiary requirements in any court of law.

As for the Church admitting there has been problems, if this is true, there is still no reason why reception on the tongue could not also be abused. It is easy for someone to spit the Body back out after reception.

Again, I will stand with the Church and what it teaches over what you say.

Please show me where the Church teaches that Communion in the hand has NOT produced any abuses or any decrease in faith in the Real Presence whatsoever. If you can show me this, your position is attainable. If not, please stop repeating this phrase because you act as if you are on the side of the Church when the Church has said that Communion in the hand must be done with caution so that abuses do not take place and that the faithful are not caused scandal. Why would the Church warn that faithful could possibly be caused scandal if Communion in the hand could not possibly produce that?

 

[una_fides]

And last, what do you mean by “Protestants”? Call them kindly, at least, “Lutherans” or “Anglicans”, not “Protestants”!

By protestants, I mean those who are not Catholics who do not believe in the Real Presence. I do not have time to list the thousands of groups who believe and act as such.

 

[Walking_Home]

Be adult in your faith: angels are representation, not “reality”, I mean: angels have no body like you!
Kneel your heart, not your legs!
I distributed communion to sick people, on their bed, to agony people….

And last, what do you mean by “Protestants”? Call them kindly, at least, “Lutherans” or “Anglicans”, not “Protestants”!

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You know --it is not right to use the sick people who are suffering and cannot kneel —as an example – to try and promote anti–kneeling.

 

[una_fides]

Be adult in your faith: angels are representation, not “reality”, I mean: angels have no body like you!
Kneel your heart, not your legs!
I distributed communion to sick people, on their bed, to agony people…

We are made in the image and likeness of God are we not? Angels are also made by God. While they are not corporeal beings, they have throughout history assumed corporeal forms (read the OT). Furthermore, one of the points of our liturgy and worship is that we move our bodies to be in a state similar to our heart’s disposition and visa versa. For this reason, we kneel at the consecration, do we not? We are showing outwardly signs of worship. Why do we kneel when we pray? And why to the eastern rite churches stand when they pray? They both do so as acts of worship. The east views standing as a sacrifice and as such an act of worship. The west, which we Latin Rite Catholics are a part, view in our minds kneeling and genuflecting as signs of worship and reverence to the Real Presence of God. Scriptures also repeatedly mention people actually kneeling before the presence of God, not just figuratively. We are to kneel in adoration before the presence of our God and Creator out of a reverent fear and awe for his power and presence. Kneel your heart AND your legs!!

 

[Member]

Yes, I am an ordained deacon serving both a Latin Rite parish and an Eastern Rite parish. Been ordained for quite a while now (nearly 14 years). I don’t know why you are having trouble believing what I posted – a few minutes with the old Catholic Encyclopedia will verify most of what I posted. A visit to any site that has the writings of the early Church Fathers will have documents from the early councils as well (try the NewAdvent web site). It’s all there… I’m a big fan of not putting forth my opinion but, rather, what it historically accurate.

Deacon Ed

I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic and I apologize if I came across that way. I was trying to validate in my mind what you had written and I didn’t know if you were truly a deacon or if your signature was just a handle.