- Status
M
Margaret_Ann
Guest
Sacrilege!!!
P
Pitcairn17
Guest
What would the last 4 weeks of CAF be without another thread railing against church music and Communion in the hand?
J
JimG
Guest
The end is near!
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This article is just bizarre. The type of music used in church does not somehow relate to the priest reporting that a partially consumed host was found on the floor. This type of thing happens from time to time even in churches with the traditional organ. Often it is a matter of someone receiving Communion who was not Catholic or who is mentally unwell. Another explanation in these COVID times is that the masks are causing some disruption to the normal Communion process. It could have even been a case of someone who had the host in their mouth and then coughed at the wrong moment.
Granted, it is not respectful to Jesus, but like I said it’s not a result of the fact that the Church has modern architecture or contemporary music. For months I have been primarily attending an historic church from the 1800s that has an organ, a high altar and all the things you’d expect in an old historic church, and I have seen at least one person who didn’t know what they were doing at Communion time (mental case, the priest spoke to him afterwards) and I have also had to use caution that a host I received did not hit the floor because it stuck to the EMHC’s fingers which I suspect were damp, perhaps from being freshly hand sanitized moments before distributing Communion. In another church I saw an elderly person drop a host because they got confused trying to remove their COVID facemask in order to consume Communion. (The priest took care of the dropped host.) NONE of this was a result of intentional disrespect.
Granted, it is not respectful to Jesus, but like I said it’s not a result of the fact that the Church has modern architecture or contemporary music. For months I have been primarily attending an historic church from the 1800s that has an organ, a high altar and all the things you’d expect in an old historic church, and I have seen at least one person who didn’t know what they were doing at Communion time (mental case, the priest spoke to him afterwards) and I have also had to use caution that a host I received did not hit the floor because it stuck to the EMHC’s fingers which I suspect were damp, perhaps from being freshly hand sanitized moments before distributing Communion. In another church I saw an elderly person drop a host because they got confused trying to remove their COVID facemask in order to consume Communion. (The priest took care of the dropped host.) NONE of this was a result of intentional disrespect.
Last edited:
P
Peeps
Guest
I have a question about this quote from the article:
"What if one does not have a choir? At my local parish in Virginia, one of the priests regularly chants parts of the Mass. When I thank him afterwards, he smiles and says, “And it’s free!” Gregorian chant is like sound with silence in it. "
Is it really “Gregorian chant” when the priest simply chants parts of the Mass? Or is it just “chant?”
Or is there no way to know unless we are there and hear what the priest is actually chanting? (And that would mean that someone would have to be pretty knowledgeable about Gregorian chant to know whether it was being done, or whether it was just “chanting.”)
It is my understanding that not all chant is “Gregorian chant.” Am I incorrect?
And to disclose my motives here–if the author is misuing the term “Gregorian chant,” then my willingness to “trust” him is compromised.
I personally love good contemporary Christian music as well as hymns, but as a pianist/organist who has been playing for churches for over 50 years, I have learned never to “judge” music done in churches and to always assume that the people are doing the very best they can with their “talent pool” and their personal abilities in the area of music.
Not every congregation has a group of singers who are capable of learning Palestrina and singing it with angelic voices, or men who are willing to learn chant and sing it in front of people and not be “embarrassed” about it, or organists who can play Bach and Buxtehude, or a choirmaster who can develop a stellar “traditional/classical” Mass music schedule, or a parish school with a music teacher who is teaching the children and teens proper singing techniques and sight-reading music (notes, not words).
A lot of churches are fortunate to have one teenager who can play a keyboard or a guitar and is willing to do so in front of a congregation that mignt not always be tolerant.
"What if one does not have a choir? At my local parish in Virginia, one of the priests regularly chants parts of the Mass. When I thank him afterwards, he smiles and says, “And it’s free!” Gregorian chant is like sound with silence in it. "
Is it really “Gregorian chant” when the priest simply chants parts of the Mass? Or is it just “chant?”
Or is there no way to know unless we are there and hear what the priest is actually chanting? (And that would mean that someone would have to be pretty knowledgeable about Gregorian chant to know whether it was being done, or whether it was just “chanting.”)
It is my understanding that not all chant is “Gregorian chant.” Am I incorrect?
And to disclose my motives here–if the author is misuing the term “Gregorian chant,” then my willingness to “trust” him is compromised.
I personally love good contemporary Christian music as well as hymns, but as a pianist/organist who has been playing for churches for over 50 years, I have learned never to “judge” music done in churches and to always assume that the people are doing the very best they can with their “talent pool” and their personal abilities in the area of music.
Not every congregation has a group of singers who are capable of learning Palestrina and singing it with angelic voices, or men who are willing to learn chant and sing it in front of people and not be “embarrassed” about it, or organists who can play Bach and Buxtehude, or a choirmaster who can develop a stellar “traditional/classical” Mass music schedule, or a parish school with a music teacher who is teaching the children and teens proper singing techniques and sight-reading music (notes, not words).
A lot of churches are fortunate to have one teenager who can play a keyboard or a guitar and is willing to do so in front of a congregation that mignt not always be tolerant.
Last edited:
J
JimG
Guest
The author’s complaints fall into three categories–architecture, music, and liturgy. He quotes Cardinal Avery Dulles about the purpose of liturgy:
“The celebration should elicit a sense of numinous awe in the presence of the holy, the totally other. God is remote, utterly transcendent, and we sinners are unworthy to stand in his presence. Liturgy is the principal bond between the earthly and the heavenly Church, a frail human participation in the glorious heavenly liturgy. In its official worship the Church achieves its prime purpose, to glorify God.”
He thinks that often, current styles in liturgy, architecture, and music, fail to elicit worship so much as, perhaps goodwill or community, and render the congregation rather blase rather than being in awe of God.
As for chant, I know nothing about it, but in my old elementary school, the childrens choir sang the parts of the daily Mass in Latin, and the adult choir did a magnificent job on Sundays.
“The celebration should elicit a sense of numinous awe in the presence of the holy, the totally other. God is remote, utterly transcendent, and we sinners are unworthy to stand in his presence. Liturgy is the principal bond between the earthly and the heavenly Church, a frail human participation in the glorious heavenly liturgy. In its official worship the Church achieves its prime purpose, to glorify God.”
He thinks that often, current styles in liturgy, architecture, and music, fail to elicit worship so much as, perhaps goodwill or community, and render the congregation rather blase rather than being in awe of God.
As for chant, I know nothing about it, but in my old elementary school, the childrens choir sang the parts of the daily Mass in Latin, and the adult choir did a magnificent job on Sundays.
I
InThePew
Guest
This. I love how he says “one needn’t go to London or have extraordinary musical resources” and then hold up Sacramento as an example. Perhaps he needs to go a little bit further a field! My town has a population a fraction the size of those cities (less than 10,000), my congregation rarely exceeds double figures. We can’t afford to pay a musical director (let alone all of the other employes large parish enjoy) - we have one person and I am eternally grateful to them for what they do. To quote from A Few Good Men: “I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way; either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.” Obviously, where a parish can afford to pay a music director and has the luxury of a choir, then it’s reasonable to expect more; but this definitely isn’t every parish.
The paragraph about the altar/tabernacle is also inherently contradictory. The altar, and not the tabernacle, should be the central focus, architecturally speaking since the mass is fundamentally about the sacrifice of Christ and it’s on the altar that this takes place. Yes, the presence of Christ in the reserved sacrament is important, but definitely not as important. So, in many ways, locating the tabernacle in a side chapel isn’t necessarily a bad thing - somewhere like Westminster Cathedral in London does this well - provided it’s appropriately solmen, dignified and easily identifiable. That said, most churches aren’t large enough for a side chapel in which case behind (but not on) the altar makes the most sense.
X
Xarto
Guest
The problem isn’t the so called New Mass (the only one I’ve ever known); the problem is a complete lack of catechesis. It seems that almost all bishops have given up after the sexual scandals and this has trickled down to the priests etc
At my daughter’s Confirmation the kid behind me didn’t know what to do with the host and actually carried it down from the altar still in his hand. His mother thankfully told him to put it his mouth.
Now that child obviously hasn’t been to mass since he made his Communion 5/6yrs previously. But where is the responsibility of the Church to make sure he and his parents fully understand what is happening?
I think we need to radically change how people prepare for First Holy Communion, bring parents into it too but maybe only give it to those who are regular Church attendees?
We have lost something over the years and I don’t think it’s as simple as Latin Vs vernacular. My Dad who passed away in June this year at 80yrs could still recite parts of the Penny Catechism. While it might have been simple rote learning it gave them answers that most Catholics now would have to Google for.
At my daughter’s Confirmation the kid behind me didn’t know what to do with the host and actually carried it down from the altar still in his hand. His mother thankfully told him to put it his mouth.
Now that child obviously hasn’t been to mass since he made his Communion 5/6yrs previously. But where is the responsibility of the Church to make sure he and his parents fully understand what is happening?
I think we need to radically change how people prepare for First Holy Communion, bring parents into it too but maybe only give it to those who are regular Church attendees?
We have lost something over the years and I don’t think it’s as simple as Latin Vs vernacular. My Dad who passed away in June this year at 80yrs could still recite parts of the Penny Catechism. While it might have been simple rote learning it gave them answers that most Catholics now would have to Google for.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
There’s a definite trend in USA to move the tabernacle back to the sanctuary. I have to say I agree with this. I don’t come to church to worship an altar. Also in some churches, whatever is now behind the altar sends a confusing message, such as one church where the tabernacle was moved to a side altar and the chairs for the priest and concelebrants were put in back of the altar. The current pastor at that church is now seeking to move the tabernacle back to its original spot, partly because he thinks it’s inappropriate and ridiculous for himself to be sitting in the middle of the sanctuary like he’s on display when the Mass is not about himself.
I think the moving of the tabernacles out of the sanctuary and off to a side altar or chapel somewhere has been confusing for many Catholics. However, I don’t think it necessarily fosters disrespect for the Eucharist, especially in some of the modern churches where the tabernacle is placed in an Adoration chapel that is within the main worship space. Some of these adoration spaces are very beautiful and reverent. It also encourages people to get some adoration time in before Mass.
P
Peeps
Guest
Our Adoration Chapel is a totally separate building–very beautiful (contemporary). About 12 small pews, although there are plenty of people who simply kneel or prostrate themselves on the floor. It’s a wonderful place to adore the Lord Jesus and spend time with Him.
I haven’t been in our church building since the beginning of the pandemic, although I’ve seen pictures and the online “tour.” Our parish is very contemporary, but beautiful–our bishop said so in his dedication homily! The building was re-built over all those months while Mass was held in the parish school gym. Our tabernacle was always front and center, and I believe it still is, but the tabernacle itself looks much more elaborate (it was just a medal “box” before–I’ve seen the same design in other parishes in the U.S., so it must have been popular at some point in U.S.history.).
I will be glad when the pandemic is over.
P
Phemie
Guest
I’ve seen Jesus end up on the floor twice in the past couple of weeks. The first time was a blind woman who normally has an EMHC receive a Host in a pyx and bring it back to the pew for her. Her EMHC was away and so she went up to Communion by herself. Carrying a white cane and trying to navigate receiving with a mask, she didn’t notice that the Host had broken and part of it had fallen to the ground.
I saw Fr. fall to his knees and retrieve every crumb he could find.
The next was the woman in front of me last Sunday. I don’t recall seeing her before and she may not have received from behind the plexiglass screen before. The attempt to give her the Host landed it on the ground. She picked it up, gave it back to Fr., and received a second Host more carefully.
I saw Fr. fall to his knees and retrieve every crumb he could find.
The next was the woman in front of me last Sunday. I don’t recall seeing her before and she may not have received from behind the plexiglass screen before. The attempt to give her the Host landed it on the ground. She picked it up, gave it back to Fr., and received a second Host more carefully.
- Status