Communion / the last supper

[WMM]

Hmm. What basis do you have for this assertion? Is there some indication in the text that it was meant to be metaphorical? If so, why did Jesus not clarify that to the many of his followers whose response was to abandon him?

***That was not the understanding of those closest to Jesus.

Read the writings of early church fathers.

The writings through 125 AD or so CLEARLY state that the Eucharist is the living body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

He promised us living bread.

He promised to be with us unto the end of time.

Do not persist in your unbelief, but believe.***

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friend Jennifer

It was literal. The bread and wine is changed into the entire Holy Trinity in actual fact. Read the whole of Jn :6 and you’ll see Jesus meant it literally. He was even willing to let the apostle leave if they never took it literally. All christians believed in the real presence for the first 1,000 yrs of christiainity i.e. catholics and orthodox. There was a French priest who was the first to deny this about 1,050 AD but he wrote in defence of this belief later. We don’t find any christians denying the real presence until 1,500 yrs into christianity with the protestant reformation. Even today about 80% of practising christians still believe in the real presence, at least their church does. There’s always the odd christian who won’t accept what the church teaches. This is why you can’t receive holy communion as a non catholic too. I hope this helps. If you want more info from me on this just email me and I’ll keep it coming. He is present in the bread and wine once consecrated dear friend. I’ll email some of the eucharistic miracle websites to you soon.

God bless you Jennifer:thumbsup:
John

 

[Zundrah]

This is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church has been teaching the Real Presence for over 2,000 years. Who told you it was a metaphore? I’m willing to bet if you checked this persons references, he/she would not hold up to the credential of the Church Fathers Rolltide listed. Especially St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was a student of St. John the Apostle. Do you think the person who told you the Real Presence was a metaphore is better informed than St. Ignatius?

Unfortunately it was my idea that it was a metaphore… no one elses.

 

[Zundrah]

My dear friend Jennifer

It was literal. The bread and wine is changed into the entire Holy Trinity in actual fact. Read the whole of Jn :6 and you’ll see Jesus meant it literally. He was even willing to let the apostle leave if they never took it literally. All christians believed in the real presence for the first 1,000 yrs of christiainity i.e. catholics and orthodox. There was a French priest who was the first to deny this about 1,050 AD but he wrote in defence of this belief later. We don’t find any christians denying the real presence until 1,500 yrs into christianity with the protestant reformation. Even today about 80% of practising christians still believe in the real presence, at least their church does. There’s always the odd christian who won’t accept what the church teaches. This is why you can’t receive holy communion as a non catholic too. I hope this helps. If you want more info from me on this just email me and I’ll keep it coming. He is present in the bread and wine once consecrated dear friend. I’ll email some of the eucharistic miracle websites to you soon.

God bless you Jennifer:thumbsup:
John

Hi John, I read your emails and I’m trying to understand but I just can’t seem to let it sink in. I not getting this whole thing about it becoming his actual flesh and blood. It seems a bit unreal. I’m not use to this kind of belief in my christianity.

 

[beckycmarie]

Hi John, I read your emails and I’m trying to understand but I just can’t seem to let it sink in. I not getting this whole thing about it becoming his actual flesh and blood. It seems a bit unreal. I’m not use to this kind of belief in my christianity.

Fortunately God understands this difficulty of ours, and in His kindness gives us Himself under the appearance of bread and wine.

St. Augustine said, “Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” If you accept this belief in obedience first, the understanding of the mind and heart will follow. A friend of mine who converted from Baptist to Catholic wrote in an essay, “Obedience: the First and Foundational Virtue,”

I have found obedience to be a salvation. Two examples:

1. My Conversion to the Catholic Church: When I finally sat down and took a look at Scripture honestly (and literally) I found that it was the Catholic Church, not the Baptist Church who truly interpreted Scripture literally. (i.e., the Real Presence, the Chair of Peter). When I looked at history I found that, too, the Catholics were right after all. When confronted with these Truths, I had a decision to make. Either obey Truth, or follow delusion—either become Catholic, or remain Protestant. I obeyed the Truth even though I didn’t understand it all.

1. My devotion to Mary: Although I was convinced of the authority of the Church, the Real Presence, and all, I was not so convinced about the communion of the saints and the doctrine on Mary. That took a little while longer. But since I knew that the Church had the AUTHORITY to declare these doctrines, I simply OBEYED.

Was my “belief” from the heart? No. Did I “feel” the devotion to Mary? No. I merely obeyed the Church and believed in the doctrine of Mary and the communion of the saints out of shear cold obedience.

But then something odd happened. Almost immediately after I obeyed the Church on this and submitted my mind and will to the Church’s teachings, all of a sudden, I began to understand the doctrine. It was almost like magic. I began to “know” what these doctrines were about. In short order I found myself no longer obeying in cold submission, but in understanding also. I had come to understand and to agree with the doctrine through the reason of my mind.

Still, something was missing—the devotion of my heart. Within one month after the cold obedience, followed by the revelation of intellect given to me to understand (only after the obedience), finally came an understanding of the heart.

Within five months of confirmation I had joined the Lay Carmelite Order and now I am a professed brother (in private vows) in the Order of the Legion of St. Michael working with Mary in spiritual warfare.

I can give other examples of this, but the chronology is always the same:

1. shear cold obedience
2. understanding of intellect
3. understanding and application of heart and spirit

Without the obedience, the undersanding and application of heart would not have happened. Now, most of the time, my obedience is warm, not cold, but I do sometimes come up against some things that I want to resist. It is then that the cold obedience must happen.

God tells us in Scripture that obedience is greater than sacrifice.

(You also might like this other essay of his, which he was assigned to write when he was in RCIA: “Why Do I Want to Be Catholic?”)

What you will come to understand, Zundrah, is that by receiving Christ in the Eucharist, we are closer to Him than if we could have held Him as a tiny baby at the manger, or walked with Him on His journeys, or sat at His feet listening to Him, or followed Him to Calvary.

If a woman hemorrhaging for nearly 20 years was healed in an instant by simply touching the hem of His robe with great faith, imagine the healing and transformation that takes place in our souls each time we receive His Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity with great faith! You have so much to look forward to.

My prayers are with you in your journey into the Church.

 

[Zundrah]

Fortunately God understands this difficulty of ours, and in His kindness gives us Himself under the appearance of bread and wine.

St. Augustine said, “Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” If you accept this belief in obedience first, the understanding of the mind and heart will follow. A friend of mine who converted from Baptist to Catholic wrote in an essay, “Obedience: the First and Foundational Virtue,”

(You also might like this other essay of his, which he was assigned to write when he was in RCIA: “Why Do I Want to Be Catholic?”)

What you will come to understand, Zundrah, is that by receiving Christ in the Eucharist, we are closer to Him than if we could have held Him as a tiny baby at the manger, or walked with Him on His journeys, or sat at His feet listening to Him, or followed Him to Calvary.

If a woman hemorrhaging for nearly 20 years was healed in an instant by simply touching the hem of His robe with great faith, imagine the healing and transformation that takes place in our souls each time we receive His Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity with great faith! You have so much to look forward to.

My prayers are with you in your journey into the Church.

I can see that you are trying to help, thank you.
I am not objecting against this Eucharist catholic belief but I just can’t understand or accept it.
I will never leave the catholic church just because I can’t believe in the Eucharist. But christ said, “do this in memory of me.” He didn’t say anything else that would cause people to believe that he is any closer to us then than he would be in our prayer or devotion.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi John, I read your emails and I’m trying to understand but I just can’t seem to let it sink in. I not getting this whole thing about it becoming his actual flesh and blood. It seems a bit unreal. I’m not use to this kind of belief in my christianity.

Dear Jennifer

It’s called His flesh and blood but this is not quite accurate. Each little piece of the bread or wine after the words of consecration by a priest with valid orders contains the entire Holy Trinity- Father, Son and Holy Spirit including Jesus’ body, blood, soul and divinity. This is more accurate. You can’t separate any members of the Trinity. As Jesus says, the flesh is of no avail it is the spirit that gives life. It is spiritual food for our souls which is God himself. we do get very minor nourishment from the bread and wine but it’s the spiritual component of it that is important and leads to eternal life as Jesus said. Only priests who can trace their lineage back through the bishops to the apostles have the power to change the bread and wine like this. This is what I mean by valid holy orders. I think the whole thing is very new to you. Just email me about what you didn’t understand and I’ll explain it all for you. It’s a miracle taking place on the altar even though we can’t usually see it. Just take your time and learn a little about it and over time you’ll understand more and more about this teaching. Once you understand what’s going on here you’ll be craving to receive holy communion. Trust me. This is the greatest gift God has given to us. He gives us His entire self to be our food, and is most intimately united with us for a few minutes when we receive holy communion. We receive much grace in this most intimate encounter with God. Just take your time and ask questions and do a little study. Don’t rush things. I’ll wait for your email dear Jennifer.

May God bless you:thumbsup:
John

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

I can see that you are trying to help, thank you.
I am not objecting against this Eucharist catholic belief but I just can’t understand or accept it.
I will never leave the catholic church just because I can’t believe in the Eucharist. But christ said, “do this in memory of me.” He didn’t say anything else that would cause people to believe that he is any closer to us then than he would be in our prayer or devotion.

Dear Jennifer

Do this in memory of me means we are supposed to repeat this continually until the end of the world. Not that it’s a metaphor. Give yourself time to get used to the idea dear friend. He explains all in John :6. I might email you the chapter with an explaination of it soon. I’ll write it up over the next few days. Keep questioning though. You get answers that way.

May God bless you:thumbsup:
John

 

[Zundrah]

Dear Jennifer

It’s called His flesh and blood but this is not quite accurate. Each little piece of the bread or wine after the words of consecration by a priest with valid orders contains the entire Holy Trinity- Father, Son and Holy Spirit including Jesus’ body, blood, soul and divinity. This is more accurate. You can’t separate any members of the Trinity. As Jesus says, the flesh is of no avail it is the spirit that gives life. It is spiritual food for our souls which is God himself. we do get very minor nourishment from the bread and wine but it’s the spiritual component of it that is important and leads to eternal life as Jesus said. Only priests who can trace their lineage back through the bishops to the apostles have the power to change the bread and wine like this. This is what I mean by valid holy orders. I think the whole thing is very new to you. Just email me about what you didn’t understand and I’ll explain it all for you. It’s a miracle taking place on the altar even though we can’t usually see it. Just take your time and learn a little about it and over time you’ll understand more and more about this teaching. Once you understand what’s going on here you’ll be craving to receive holy communion. Trust me. This is the greatest gift God has given to us. He gives us His entire self to be our food, and is most intimately united with us for a few minutes when we receive holy communion. We receive much grace in this most intimate encounter with God. Just take your time and ask questions and do a little study. Don’t rush things. I’ll wait for your email dear Jennifer.

May God bless you:thumbsup:
John

John you are a great help,
just like with all things, ie coming to christ for the first time, this will also take time for me to understand.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

John you are a great help,
just like with all things, ie coming to christ for the first time, this will also take time for me to understand.

Dear Jennifer

I’m off to visit our Lord now. I’ll offer my prayer for you again. I hope it helps. See you soon

May God bless you dear friend:thumbsup:
John
P.S. Be patient with yourself learning new things.

 

[beckycmarie]

I can see that you are trying to help, thank you.
I am not objecting against this Eucharist catholic belief but I just can’t understand or accept it.
I will never leave the catholic church just because I can’t believe in the Eucharist. But christ said, “do this in memory of me.” He didn’t say anything else that would cause people to believe that he is any closer to us then than he would be in our prayer or devotion.

The problem is you’re trying to understand it before you will believe it. You need to start with belief first. This requires an act of faith on your part. Like I said before, the understanding will come later.

You are deceiving yourself if you think that you can’t believe in the Eucharist. In order to counter such deceptions, we need to exercise faith. Faith is the response to Truth by making a CHOICE (not a feeling) to believe and to accept the Truth. Faith is something we DECIDE to do; it is not something we FEEL like doing. **Believing the truth does not make it true; rather it is TRUE, therefore we believe it. **

The bottom line is, you are not going to be able to receive the Sacraments of Initiation if you reject the Real Presence. This is not an optional belief. Part of the Initiation process requires that you declare that you accept all that the Church teaches. More than likely your director of RCIA or sponsor will notice your lack of faith in the Eucharist and they can try to work with you, but if you stubbornly refuse to believe what the Church teaches, they cannot allow you to go through with your initiation into the Church.

From the Catechism:
1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”

A little humility is needed here on your part to reject this idea that you possess some sort of infallible interpretation of the Bible, and instead submit to the teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded directly by Christ.

A user on another forum puts it this way:

"It must start with the faith that Christ did not found a book but a Church made up of a Communion of Saints who are alive on Earth, in Purgatory and in Heaven. It is this Catholic Church, and not a book, that He deposited and entrusted His Gospel message for the world to hear. And not to hear the Church He founded, as Christ warned, is to reject God because “… he who rejects me rejects him who sent me (Luke 10:16).”

 

[NHInsider]

***That was not the understanding of those closest to Jesus.

Read the writings of early church fathers.

The writings through 125 AD or so CLEARLY state that the Eucharist is the living body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

He promised us living bread.

He promised to be with us unto the end of time.

Do not persist in your unbelief, but believe.***

Since the above appears to have been a response to my post, let me just clarify that I DO believe in the Real Presence - my query was directed to the OP, wondering what basis she had for her assertion . . .

Actually my conversion story turns on reading the 6th chapter of John one evening and suddenly realizing (even though I had read it countless times before) that the Catholic Eucharist was real - and knowing that, none of my other long-learned objections to the Church really meant anything at all.

 

[LilyM]

John you are a great help,
just like with all things, ie coming to christ for the first time, this will also take time for me to understand.

Of course it will. There are lots of aspects of the faith that are difficult to understand - the Incarnation, the Trinity and so on. Think about it and pray on it.

One thought - Jesus promised that He would be with us always, until the end of the age. Being both human and divine, though, if His physical presence is not still with us, that’s an awfully important part of Him that is missing from the earth, no?

Another though. Remember the Mass is the sacrifice of Calvary - what sort of sacrifice would it be without a truly present sacrificial victim? Jesus wasn’t just ‘spiritually/symbolically present’ on the Cross, neither is He just ‘spiritually/symbolically present’ in the Eucharist either.

Yet a third, perhaps the most important. Paul goes into great detail about worthy reception of the Eucharist - not only stating that whoever receives unworthily is guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord (how is that possible if the Eucharist is only symbolic?) and brings condemnation, but that one must receive with ‘discernment’. What is there to discern in the Eucharist if it is merely a symbolic presence?

Moreover Paul states that the Eucharist has real power - so much so that unworthy recepients become spiritually/physically ill - or DIE! What symbol has such power?

 

[dashso40]

Sorry everyone but it was a metaphore, like the parables of the grains falling on shallow or deep soil…

Hello, please don’t take offense, but if you don’t believe that the Eucharist IS the body of Jesus, why are you becoming Catholic?..I’m a convert and I believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist b/c it’s in the scriptures, and Jesus can do anything even if it is too hard for us to believe, anything is possible with Jesus…God Bless you

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Dear Jennifer

Don’t worry if people are asking why do you want to be catholic and so on. To be catholic you must believe what the catholic church teaches ( not what the local bishop or priest believes unless they teach what the church teaches. We must listen to the Pope ) but when you hear new teachings it often takes time to learn about them and understand them. Don’t rush yourself. Just take your time. Send me an email when you get back to the internet cafe. We’ll catch up then.

I love the picture in your signature too. They look like their having so much fun playing. I really like the picture

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup:
John

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’d also like to present the following Biblical argument, spelled out expertly in The Lamb’s Supper by Dr. Scott Hahn. Perhaps you would like to re-read Revelation in light of the following idea. Compare the imagery of Revelation to the parts of the Catholic Mass:

I could go into much greater detail, but Dr. Hahn does it much better than I.

I hope all of that information helps!

I have the CD. It’s awesome.

 

[Zundrah]

Dear Jennifer

Don’t worry if people are asking why do you want to be catholic and so on. To be catholic you must believe what the catholic church teaches ( not what the local bishop or priest believes unless they teach what the church teaches. We must listen to the Pope ) but when you hear new teachings it often takes time to learn about them and understand them. Don’t rush yourself. Just take your time. Send me an email when you get back to the internet cafe. We’ll catch up then.

I love the picture in your signature too. They look like their having so much fun playing. I really like the picture

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup:
John

John russeel, I am sooooo lucky to have found you as a friend! xxx jennifer xxx
I’ll keep in contact with you always! god bless your caring souls, if only I was as loving as you! I have to pray that I gain patience and understanding like yours!

 

[Zundrah]

Hello, please don’t take offense, but if you don’t believe that the Eucharist IS the body of Jesus, why are you becoming Catholic?..I’m a convert and I believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist b/c it’s in the scriptures, and Jesus can do anything even if it is too hard for us to believe, anything is possible with Jesus…God Bless you

…“plaese don’t be offended? Offeded!?” How can I not be offended by that!? :banghead:

lol, only joking with you dashso40, I am not offended… I don’t believe that christ is present in the Eucharist. I believe that christ is present in my life, in my prayers and in my death.

 

[beckycmarie]

Jennifer, you’ve got a little time to learn if you’re coming into the Church at Easter Vigil 2010. In your RCIA class, they probably haven’t gotten to this topic yet. Until they do, I recommend praying for the grace to believe, and spending some time each week before the Tabernacle in prayer.

 

[Rolltide]

lol, only joking with you dashso40, I am not offended… I don’t believe that christ is present in the Eucharist. I believe that christ is present in my life, in my prayers and in my death.

Did you happen to read my long, but detailed post above about the history of the belief in the Real Presence? What do you think about the huge amount of historical evidence for the Real Presence, dating all the way back to the Apostles?

I’ll be happy to answer any further questions you may have!

And I STILL recommend “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn. This short book, which is probably in your local library, will help you understand this doctrine in MUCH greater detail.