Communion wine?

[Muzhik]

Well, I can offer some suggestions:

Matzos are out. They have salt, and possibly some kind of vegetable oil. I would not trust matzos for Communion.

FWIW, kosher-for-passover matzos don’t have salt, and they DEFINITELY don’t have oil. By rabbinical law, they can only be made from flour and water, and in fact must be baked and finished within 18 minutes from the time the water is added to the flour until the product is put into the oven. After 18 minutes, there’s too much chance that some kind of yeast spore (leavening) will have landed in the dough, contaminating the product. Bakeries that make these things locally will have guys with stopwatches, and if it’s even one second over, the batch is thrown out.

I would however suggest some hosts in the factor-sealed plastic containers. Not the re-packaged ones, but the ones packed as soon as possible after baking, and not the ones in the cellophane sleeves. The ones in the plastic containers with factory sealed foil last quite some time.

:yyeess: It just so happens that last Friday I found a source that had these jars of 1000 on sale. I bought 5 of them and got a 14% discount.

Wine will likewise stay fresh for quite some time. An unopened bottle of altar wine will usually last at least a year. Store sideways as this helps to keep the seal. I would not use wine older than a year. Remember that you only need enough wine for the priest celebrating the Mass, so a little goes a long way. If you reach the point where you need more than say 3 bottles, it’s the end of civilization.

Or it’s the beginning of the Chastisement and the Persecution of the Church in America… :frighten:

Rotate out your emergency supplies every so often–maybe every 3 months. Just like you should batteries. Too many people have their “emergency kit” from way back when, and think that because they’ve packed it, they’re done.

Definitely! I regularly rotate out my cans of food, donating them to the local food bank. I imagine something can be worked out with the parish to do a swap of my jars for whatever they’ve purchased. I purchased the smallest pure white hosts because they were less expensive than the whole-wheat hosts we usually use. I’ll need to discuss with the priests whether or not to buy some larger-sized hosts; and if so maybe to buy the ones that can be broken into 64 pieces.

Many of the altar wines out there have a commercial counterpart. One batch of wine is made and bottled. Some bottles get labels that say “altar wine” others get labels that don’t. It’s the same wine inside. If you really are that concerned, take a trip to the grocer, look at what they typically keep well-stocked. If you do a little research, you just MIGHT find that some of that wine on the shelf has already been approved, but it simply isn’t labeled.

I’ll check with my bishop. I’ve got some emails in to some of the local wineries. If they don’t already have one that would be suitable, they might be willing to make a batch. My area is very agricultural and “buying local food” is a big thing right now. This might be the push to get some local winemakers to start making alter wine, if they aren’t already.

Homemade wine will take quite some time, and I don’t think that’s a practical solution. It takes at least a month to make and that’s assuming you even have the grapes.

I’m thinking of using raisins like they did in the Nazi death camps. (see above reference to Chastisement…)

You might want to have more than one “church emergency kit” around the parish. If you’re preparing for the possibility that the church building will be destroyed, put a few of these kits in different people’s houses.

Absolutely. I’m a computer geek, so the idea of making multiple generations of backups and storing at least one set of tapes off-site is second-nature to me.

And don’t forget to pack the emergency supply of offering envelopes.

Yes! I’ll definitely mention that at the diocesan Disaster Planning meeting we’re having at the end of the month!

BTW, thanks for the link to the Mont La Salle website!

 

[FrDavid96]

FWIW, kosher-for-passover matzos don’t have salt, and they DEFINITELY don’t have oil. By rabbinical law, they can only be made from flour and water, and in fact must be baked and finished within 18 minutes from the time the water is added to the flour until the product is put into the oven. After 18 minutes, there’s too much chance that some kind of yeast spore (leavening) will have landed in the dough, contaminating the product. Bakeries that make these things locally will have guys with stopwatches, and if it’s even one second over, the batch is thrown out.

Again I’ll offer some strong caution on using Motza. This is a very generic word that can apply to many different kinds of unleavened bread. Some motza is even made from barley, oats, or spelt, or even fruits (using the juice as a substitute for water). Remember that the rabbinic law says that it can’t be leavened, but there is no requirement that it have nothing added to it after it’s made. Try matzahonline.com

Definitely! I regularly rotate out my cans of food, donating them to the local food bank. I imagine something can be worked out with the parish to do a swap of my jars for whatever they’ve purchased. I purchased the smallest pure white hosts because they were less expensive than the whole-wheat hosts we usually use. I’ll need to discuss with the priests whether or not to buy some larger-sized hosts; and if so maybe to buy the ones that can be broken into 64 pieces.

I think this is your best option. Stay with hosts made for the Mass. It’s not as if you can’t get a very large supply and keep them safe.

I’ll check with my bishop. I’ve got some emails in to some of the local wineries. If they don’t already have one that would be suitable, they might be willing to make a batch. My area is very agricultural and “buying local food” is a big thing right now. This might be the push to get some local winemakers to start making alter wine, if they aren’t already.

Remember that they may already be making wine suitable for the Mass. Asking them to change their “recipe” might be futile, but asking them to contact the bishop and arrange for certification is much more likely.

I’m thinking of using raisins like they did in the Nazi death camps. (see above reference to Chastisement…)

That would be invalid indeed. The use of raisins in altar wine by the gnostics is the very reason (historically speaking) why we have church laws defining altar wine. It was more a matter of fresh-squeezed grapes, but raisins were also used. After the war, Pope Pius XII avoided the question of whether or those Masses were valid. He simply said “you did what you had to do.”

Absolutely. I’m a computer geek, so the idea of making multiple generations of backups and storing at least one set of tapes off-site is second-nature to me.

Yes! I’ll definitely mention that at the diocesan Disaster Planning meeting we’re having at the end of the month!

BTW, thanks for the link to the Mont La Salle website!

Two Saints Winery (twosaintswinery.com) uses a lot of Christian names for their wines. While this does not make them certified (of course) it might be a good lead.

Eagle City winery
eaglecitywinery.com/
makes a variety called “red altar” That’s worth looking into. Their webpage does not say that it is approved for Catholic use (nor that it is not approved), but it would hurt nothing to ask.

 

[Muzhik]

Muzhik;5187578:

I’m thinking of using raisins like they did in the Nazi death camps. (see above reference to Chastisement…)

That would be invalid indeed. The use of raisins in altar wine by the gnostics is the very reason (historically speaking) why we have church laws defining altar wine. It was more a matter of fresh-squeezed grapes, but raisins were also used. After the war, Pope Pius XII avoided the question of whether or those Masses were valid. He simply said “you did what you had to do.”

I did not know that about the gnostics. I had thought that in some of the northern parts of Europe such as Scandinavia they made communion wine out of raisins simply because they could not get fresh grapes up there. I also believe the priests in the death camps would soak (re-hydrate) the raisins for a few days so the results could be pressed to make a grape “juice” that they would use for fermentation. Kinda stretching the definition, but like Pius XII said …

Two Saints Winery (twosaintswinery.com) uses a lot of Christian names for their wines. While this does not make them certified (of course) it might be a good lead.

I’ve sent them an email asking about certification. I wanted to point out that the “Christian names” they’re using for their wines are actually local place names. I get the feeling from the wine descriptions that I’ll have more luck with the Eagle City Winery.

BTW, while looking on the Diocese of Dubuque web site to get contact information, I ran across a PDF page in their Liturgy section that gives different recipes for making Eucharistic Bread that are approved by different dioceses, such as the Diocese of Great Falls-Billings and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. The recipes all note that they make “substantial bread” that crumble more, so more care must be taken to clean the paten, etc.; and that to maintain freshness the bread should be made the Friday before it is to be used or frozen if it will be used later.

 

[Justin1224]

I have never seen red wine used, if your speaking of a red wine such as merlot. Our parish uses a wine that is close to white zinfandel.

 

[Phemie]

In your disaster scenario, you’re at a store. If the flour is still OK, get flour and make chapatis. They’re nothing but water and flour, mixed, kneaded, divided into ping-pong-ball-sized pieces which are rolled very thin. Cook them in a well seasoned cast iron frying pan on one side then flip onto a rack over a hot burner or cook them over coals . Takes about 10 minutes.

 

[Muzhik]

Eagle City winery
eaglecitywinery.com/
makes a variety called “red altar” That’s worth looking into. Their webpage does not say that it is approved for Catholic use (nor that it is not approved), but it would hurt nothing to ask.

Just an FYI: I’m still waiting to hear back from my bishop, but I got an email from the Eagle City Winery that their Altar Red has been approved by the Bishop of Dubuque for the past 8 years.

 

[FrDavid96]

Just an FYI: I’m still waiting to hear back from my bishop, but I got an email from the Eagle City Winery that their Altar Red has been approved by the Bishop of Dubuque for the past 8 years.

Glad you found at least one. I’m also curious to know if any of their other varieties were approved as well.

Please let us know if you find any others from different wineries.

I’ve been enjoying looking at the web pages for the various wineries. I’ve noticed a common theme: many of them say that they take pride in making pure wines. This is to be expected from “mom and pop” businesses. That makes me think that there is a very good chance you’ll find many suitable altar wines.

I also hope that this little conversation will “inspire” other readers of this thread to explore the possibility of using locally produced wines at the altar. Many of these wines are well-suited for the Holy Sacrifice if only someone either at the winery or at the diocese would take the extra step of having them approved.

 

[Muzhik]

I found a veritable banquet of the vintner’s craft. Apparently Iowa was the 6th-largest grower of wine grapes in the years before Prohibition; it’s just now restoring its lost heritage.

I also noticed that many of these small wineries boast about their “pure wines”; however, I’ve found the definition of “pure” varies quite a bit. Some were concerned because in my original request for information I specified that it had to be “naturally fermented with no additives.” Some took that to mean that they couldn’t add yeast to the juice, that the yeasts had to be wild. Another was concerned that aging the wine in oak barrels counted as an “additive” since the wine would pick up the flavor of the oak.

After going into more detail about what was expected in a sacramental wine, I got back a rather lengthy list. It is by no means complete; however, I still would not recommend buying a local wine off the shelf without first making sure that it met the requirements. Some of the “pure” wines were pure in that they didn’t add any sugar or non-wine ingredients, but the wine was a mix of (for example) cherry wine from cherries grown at the vineyard. This was not evident from the label, which only noted that it had cherry highlights.

Note that these are only available in Iowa, and not everywhere. Check the companies’ web sites for information on how to get the wine. Some of them do mail order; most just sell through retailers or at the winery. In no particular order, the wineries that replied to me and their wines are:

Eagle City Winery (eaglecitywinery.com/) Red Altar
Jasper Winery (jasperwinery.com) Norton, Chancellor, Behind the Shed Red, and Seyval Blanc
Prairie Moon Winery (prairiemoonwinery.com/wine.shtml) Bluestem Fume, Seyval Blanc, Marechel Foch Reserve, and Half Moon Red
Rosey Acres Winery (roseyacreswinery.com/Wines.htm) Rising Sun Red and Runnells Red

BTW, I contacted the offices of both the Bishop of Davenport and the Bishop of Dubuque to ask if they had a list of approved sacramental wines. Neither of them did, and both told me just to make sure the wine “fit the rules.”

 

[FrDavid96]

BTW, I contacted the offices of both the Bishop of Davenport and the Bishop of Dubuque to ask if they had a list of approved sacramental wines. Neither of them did, and both told me just to make sure the wine “fit the rules.”

Thanks for sharing the information.

That last bit is rather important. I have yet to see what those “rules” are. The GIRM gives only a very brief description of what is required.

On the one hand, we shouldn’t be pharisaic about picking an altar wine. I wouldn’t want anyone with a stopwatch timing the winemaker. But at the same time, we can’t be casual about this either. It must meet the requirements of the Church. But what are those requirements?

Does anyone have knowlege of an actual source for a more detailed definition of what is required for an altar wine? I mean beyond what we already know about being pure grape wine with nothing added to it. In my own “research” for this thread I came across a reference to a clarification from the Holy Office (now the CDWS) from circa 1930s that said something about a very minimal amount of preservatives being acceptable–but only a reference and not the actual document.

And what about the yeast? Does it have to be the yeast that naturally grows on the outside of the grape, or can the winemaker add yeast? It wasn’t until the microscope was invented that mankind even knew that yeast existed. They knew that dough would rise and that grapes could be made into wine, but they had no idea how this happened.

Lest anyone misunderstand, I am not trying to be pharisaic about this, I’m just curious and just making conversation.

 

[Muzhik]

Fr. Dave, I may have found an answer to your questions. I just got an email from one of the owners of “La Vida Loca Winery” (lavidalocawinery.com/default.aspx). He attends the local Catholic church and has been working with the local priest to make a sacramental wine. I invited him on this thread so we can get some information from someone who knows.

Here’s praying he makes it!

 

[Digitonomy]

Just an FYI: I’m still waiting to hear back from my bishop, but I got an email from the Eagle City Winery that their Altar Red has been approved by the Bishop of Dubuque for the past 8 years…

BTW, I contacted the offices of both the Bishop of Davenport and the Bishop of Dubuque to ask if they had a list of approved sacramental wines. Neither of them did, and both told me just to make sure the wine “fit the rules.”

So does this mean the Bishop of Dubuque approves wines, but doesn’t keep a list? Or that Eagle City was approved 8 years ago, perhaps under a previous bishop, but the bishop no longer certifies wine in this way?

 

[Muzhik]

So does this mean the Bishop of Dubuque approves wines, but doesn’t keep a list? Or that Eagle City was approved 8 years ago, perhaps under a previous bishop, but the bishop no longer certifies wine in this way?

I believe it’s the latter. After this little foray into the vintner’s art, I think the growth in local vineyards has made things complicated for the bishops. When most of the wine was purchased from Christian Brothers (which doesn’t really exist anymore – they got bought out) or from some other source that was known and recognized, it was easy. Now, however, there are just too many different varieties and keeping track of whose wine fits the rubrics and whose doesn’t is a pretty big job. Plus, the simple act of trying to find out how some wine makers make their wines is frustrating. I had written to quite a few wineries what the requirements were for making sacramental wine, requirements that I thought were pretty straightforward.

One requirement is that the wine be 100% grape wine naturally fermented with no additives. There was a scandal a couple of centuries ago in France where one wine vendor mixed poor quality wine with grape juice and alcohol and sold it as sacramental wine; therefore the requirement that it be “naturally fermented.” Several wineries wrote back saying they couldn’t be qualified because they added commercial yeast to their wine instead of using “wild yeast.”

I just got a reply from one winery where they were concerned that only red wines could be used. We discussed the requirements, and it turned out that one wine he originally thought would work had too much alcohol, the other had cane sugar added, and a third that WOULD meet the requirements was not ready to be bottled yet.

I’m beginning to think I should offer to create a list for the Bishop’s offices of local wines that can be used sacramentally.

 

[Digitonomy]

it turned out that one wine he originally thought would work had too much alcohol, the other had cane sugar added

I thought wine would only ferment to a certain level of alcohol, and that to get higher you had to add sugar. What is “too much” alcohol, and how does the wine get to that point?

Muzhik:

I’m beginning to think I should offer to create a list for the Bishop’s offices of local wines that can be used sacramentally.

That sounds like a great idea.

 

[OhMalley]

…The common procedure now is to add sulfites to kill the yeast (which is why every wine you see on the shelf will tell you “contains sulfites”); **however, adding the sulfite means the wine is “mixed with other substances” and so can’t be used for the Eucharist. ** (That’s why the wine you substituted may have tasted better, but it probably invalidated the sacrament.)…

This matter is not as simple as some people would suggest so we must be careful not to give erroneous advice. Sulfates may indeed by added to wine licitly used for the sacrament:
*
"Mass Wine: Treated with Sulphurous Anhydride, Etc. (Holy Office) Private.

The Holy Office was asked by the Archbishop of Tarracona: Whether in the Sacrifice of the Mass, wine may be used which is made from the juice of the grape, treated with sulphurous anhydride or with potassium bisulphite.

Reply. In the affirmative.

(Private) ; Holy Office, 2 Aug., 1922.

Not published in the AAS; cf. Il Monitore, Oct., 1923, p. 289."*

At my parish we spend good money for wine “approved for sacramental use” and here is what the vendor’s website has to say about nitrates:

montlasallealtarwines.com/faq.php#qq1_1

Some would argue the above reply is only applicable to a given archdiocese yet it’s the very justification given for one of the largest sacramental wine producers in the USA to add sulfates to its sacramental wine.

 

[Jimzz12]

Why doesn’t the Church use red wine for the Blood of Christ? Doesn’t red wine visually convey the Blood of Christ better than any other wine?

You know I’ve only ever seen red, and particularly rosé more comonly. Never seen white. That is interesting.

 

[Jimzz12]

I believe this is the wine you mean:
onehda.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=4&=SID#MOREINFO

A close look at the label shows that it does contain sulfites.

Almost all modern wines contain at least a small amount of sulfites as a preservative.

“No additives” actually means no fruit juice or other flavorings. That’s why they can say “100% pure grape wine” at the vineyard that makes Angelica.

A minimal amount of preservatives is permitted by the Church. If I get a chance, I’ll look it up and cite a source, if that would help to ease your mind, unless someone else posts it in the meantime.

I’ve always had a certain “interest” in altar wines, and I make it a point of looking at the wines when I visit other churches–always on the lookout to try something new. Every certified altar wine I’ve ever seen has had sulfites.

I’ve been chasing this for years myself. I haven’t recieved a specific answer as of yet. I am currently in the understanding that sulfites are neccessary (at least in Europe) where it is the law of the continent.

 

[Muzhik]

This matter is not as simple as some people would suggest so we must be careful not to give erroneous advice. Sulfates may indeed by added to wine licitly used for the sacrament:

I do apologize for posting this erroneous information. In the past week that I’ve been looking at this issue, I’ve learned FAR more about wines and wine making than I ever wanted to learn! (I’m not a wine drinker; in fact, wine at Communion is the only time I drink it.) What I thought would be a fairly simple requirement (“100% grape wine with no additives”) turned into a linguistic nightmare: does adding commercial yeast to the juice make it invalid, since that means you’re adding something to the wine? How about aging the wine in oak barrels, since that adds oak flavor to the wine? What started as a 3-line email sent to different wineries turned into a 34-line document with the requirements AND explaining what the requirements mean, including historical examples of what is and is not permitted.

In addition, what I thought would be a quick project turned into a fairly major undertaking. I knew that there were a growing number of vineyards in Iowa; I had no idea that there were so many winemakers. So far, I have a list of 30 wineries that I’ve written to, and that doesn’t include all the wineries in the western part of the state. Some of those have already disqualified themselves, because they add sugar or fruit wines to their grape wines, but most of them I haven’t heard back from yet.

Should be fun…

 

[Muzhik]

Shalom, all! Just to bring everyone up to date:

I wrote to the Liturgy and Sacraments directors of all 4 Iowa Dioceses. None of them had any list of Iowa wines that could be used sacramentally. ALL of them were VERY interested in getting or having such a list made, since it would fit in very nicely with existing “buy locally” or “support Iowa agriculture” social justice programs. If anyone wants a copy of the document so they can send out their own requests for local sacramental wine, send me a PM and I’ll send you a copy.

I’m not going to contact any more wineries in Iowa. Every time I think I’m done I run across another list that has two or three more I didn’t know about before. All I can say is that the wine business in Iowa is booming. My list now has 45 wineries; the ones I discover after this will have to wait until next year’s list.

Of those 45 wineries, only 18 replied. Of those who replied, only 10 have wines that meet the rubrics.

It is the last winery that has given me a truly interesting question, and has piqued my interest so that, as someone who doesn’t like wine, I might actually shell out some money to buy some.

Bluestem Winery located in Parkersburg, Iowa (where they had the huge tornado last year, and where the head football coach was shot by a crazy guy last week) makes some very interesting wines. First, they don’t use any sugar in their processing. None whatsoever. Second, they have two different wines, a white and a red, that are sweet because they use 11 times the amount of juice as normal, so when the yeast is finished fermenting there’s still plenty of sugar left.

Third, he uses a technique that makes so much sense to me but I’ve never heard of anyone else using it. On three different wines, he reserves some of the juice from the pressings, ferments the rest down to a dry wine, then adds some of the original pressing back into the wine to sweeten it. It’s this process that’s got me wondering. Normally, adding juice to wine immediately makes the wine unsuitable for sacramental use. However, all the cases I’ve read about involve adding juices either from other fruits or from different pressings.

There is also the question of must. “Must” is juice that has begun the fermenting process but is stopped after only small or trace amounts of alcohol are created. In cases where the priest is alcoholic or for other health reasons can’t consume wine, the bishop may give him permission to use must instead of wine. Based on my research, I also believe must is used in some European cooking, far more than here in the States.

So the questions I have to ask are these:

1. If, after the grapes are pressed and the juice is extracted, part of the pressing is reserved and then added back to the wine after fermentation (i.e., the un-fermented juice is added to the wine that was made from the same juice), does that count as an admixture that would change the nature or substance of the wine?
2. If, after the grapes are pressed and the juice is extracted, part of the pressing is reserved, **converted to must, **and then the must is added back to the wine after fermentation (i.e., both the wine and the must are from the same pressing and the same juice), does that count as an admixture that would change the nature or substance of the wine?

I’m looking forward to any information/thoughts on these questions.

 

[FrDavid96]

Shalom, all! Just to bring everyone up to date:

…

So the questions I have to ask are these:

1. If, after the grapes are pressed and the juice is extracted, part of the pressing is reserved and then added back to the wine after fermentation (i.e., the un-fermented juice is added to the wine that was made from the same juice), does that count as an admixture that would change the nature or substance of the wine?
2. If, after the grapes are pressed and the juice is extracted, part of the pressing is reserved, **converted to must, **and then the must is added back to the wine after fermentation (i.e., both the wine and the must are from the same pressing and the same juice), does that count as an admixture that would change the nature or substance of the wine?

I’m looking forward to any information/thoughts on these questions.

Thanks for the updates. I’m really curious how your little “project” is progressing.

As for #1, the answer is a definite no. It doesn’t matter what the source of the juice might be, if grape juice is added to wine, it’s not licit for Mass (certainly not licit, and depending upon how much juice it would also be invalid).

As for #2, I don’t know (perhaps another poster has an answer). Since mustum is wine (not grape juice) and it’s valid matter for priests who can’t consume ordinary wine, it might be licit matter. But keep in mind that priests who use mustum can only do so with special permission–so it would still be illicit for any priest who doesn’t need it to use it.

If memory serves, “must” is unfermented grape juice, while “mustum” is a very low alcohol wine. Those might not be hard-and-fast definitions, but that’s how I’ve usually heard the terms used.

 

[Muzhik]

Thanks for the updates. I’m really curious how your little “project” is progressing.

If memory serves, “must” is unfermented grape juice, while “mustum” is a very low alcohol wine. Those might not be hard-and-fast definitions, but that’s how I’ve usually heard the terms used.

AARRGGH! I’ll have to look that up. In my memory, the sources I read simply used “must” although I remember references to “mustum”, used interchangeably. (Or is “mustum” the Latin form of “must”?)

Happy Independence Day, folks!