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Nicholas_Larkin
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In your own mind, what would you consider “common” liturgical abuses? How would you present these abuses to your priest?
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
- Encouraging the holding of hands at the our Father
- Changing words in the Sacramentary when there is no option to do so, especially for inclusive language (when is the last time you have heard Eucharistic Prayer IV prayed as written?)
- Talking before or after Mass
- EEM’s handling the Eucharist without proper reverence.
- Anthropocentric music.
- The priest leaving the sanctuary during Mass.
- Poorly-catechized permanent deacons.
- Inventing new and unusual liturgical actions, like dance.
- Allowing the Sign of Peace to last for more than three seconds.
- Referring to God as “mother.”
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jbuck919
Guest
Cav has given a worthy list, but I would start with something simpler. In versicles, priests making up their own variation of the verse as they go along instead of what is in the official ordo. If the congregation did the same thing with the respond, we would have chaos.
There are also multiple ways to say things in Latin, and in fact they turn up now and then. For instance, the beginning of the 23rd Psalm can be read either Dominus regit me or Pastor meus Deus est. But priests in the old days were constrained by their own ignorance to toe exactly the line. Nowadays they are feeling in an inappropriate sense their own oats and ironically are being far more self-determining than many of their protestant counterparts, who always say the words exactly as written in the ritual.
There are also multiple ways to say things in Latin, and in fact they turn up now and then. For instance, the beginning of the 23rd Psalm can be read either Dominus regit me or Pastor meus Deus est. But priests in the old days were constrained by their own ignorance to toe exactly the line. Nowadays they are feeling in an inappropriate sense their own oats and ironically are being far more self-determining than many of their protestant counterparts, who always say the words exactly as written in the ritual.
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KnightforChrist
Guest
Just yesterday I emailed to our priest, as a question a problem I have been encountering the past 3 or 4 weeks were the cantor has changed the wording of the Agnus Dei…The changing of this chant is prohibited in the GIRM…
So, it would go along with number 2 above…
I agree especially with number 1 above…The holding hands/armwaving has gotten out of hand at some churches I have visited…
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netmilsmom
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You should see the congregation at the parish I attended here in Fort Lauderdale. There was so many handmovements I though I was with the Shakers and not the Catholics!!!
At one point my older daughter started to do the “Backatcha” movement without thinking. I leaned down to her and said, “Stop. You know more than these people. Don’t make it about you.” Although everyone of those people may have “felt” the need to make the movements, for her it made the focus on the crowd and not Our Lord.
Even at nine, she questioned the tabernacle on the side and the procession bowing to the presider’s chair behind the altar. God Bless my Holy Parish, our wonderful Pastor and every volunteer in our CCD classes!!!
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KnightforChrist
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I feel your pain and agree with your point where you remind your daughter that she knows better…As I watch the hand holding and raising the hands high I say a little prayer to myself for those people that in some way they can remember that our focus should be on Christ and the Mass that is unfolding before us instead of the “feel good” they are getting from holding hands across the pews…You should see the congregation at the parish I attended here in Fort Lauderdale. There was so many handmovements I though I was with the Shakers and not the Catholics!!!
At one point my older daughter started to do the “Backatcha” movement without thinking. I leaned down to her and said, “Stop. You know more than these people. Don’t make it about you.” Although everyone of those people may have “felt” the need to make the movements, for her it made the focus on the crowd and not Our Lord.
Even at nine, she questioned the tabernacle on the side and the procession bowing to the presider’s chair behind the altar. God Bless my Holy Parish, our wonderful Pastor and every volunteer in our CCD classes!!!
My heart is heavy when I see this at other Catholic parishes I visit…It’s a charismatic act which has crept into the Catholic Church and sadly many are not educated about our faith enough to reject this act…
I guess they are desiring to transfer all this spiritual energy among themselves…
I keep my head bowed and my hands together like an old picture of a knight or saint at prayer…Only once has someone literally grapsed at my hands and at that moment I said in a very straightforward voice, ("No, you’re not supposed to do that !!!) You would have thought I had the plague after that…
Please be sure and remind your daughter that all this hand holding and people raising clasped hands high (even though it transformed one of the Wonder Twins into water/Ice and the other into an animal on the cartoons) will never increase or raise to a higher level the prayer you are reciting and professing with your mouth and heart…It does not change the efficacy of prayer !!!
Christ taught us how to pray and told us the Father sees what is hidden…
I have a three year old and I have already taught her to keep those hands folded together in a pious prayerful position during the Our Father…
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Cavaille-Coll
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“Wonder Twin powers activate! Form of a giant liturgist! Shape of an ice priestess!”
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chotock
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KnightforChrist
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I had to throw it in for you all !!! when I start seeing the handholding and raising in mass that’s what I start thinking of…
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ncjohn
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Gee, i r gong to skool to lurn so i kin bee smart to.
No, it’s not a charismatic act, and no, it has nothing to do with lack of education. You may not like it or understand the motivations of those who participate in it, but that does not make it an abuse.
And it would be far more charitable to not be making judgments about other people’s devotion, piety, or education rather than playing the part of the one standing off proclaiming “Thank you Lord for not making me like other men” as you state your great piety in looking like the picture of a saint.
I’m sure you are a loving and devoted child of God and our Church. Our faith calls us to give that same benefit of the doubt to all though.
I really don’t want to get into another debate on holding hands, as we’ve had more than enough of those here and even the moderators have asked us to give it a rest. But let’s please drop this out of the “abuse” category as it is no such thing.
Peace,
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KnightforChrist
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John,Gee, i r gong to skool to lurn so i kin bee smart to.
No, it’s not a charismatic act, and no, it has nothing to do with lack of education. You may not like it or understand the motivations of those who participate in it, but that does not make it an abuse.
And it would be far more charitable to not be making judgments about other people’s devotion, piety, or education rather than playing the part of the one standing off proclaiming “Thank you Lord for not making me like other men” as you state your great piety in looking like the picture of a saint.
I’m sure you are a loving and devoted child of God and our Church. Our faith calls us to give that same benefit of the doubt to all though.
I really don’t want to get into another debate on holding hands, as we’ve had more than enough of those here and even the moderators have asked us to give it a rest. But let’s please drop this out of the “abuse” category as it is no such thing.
Peace,
I’m sorry that you are offended by my statements…
With respect to lack of education, I don’t mean completing school, degrees and if someone did or didn’t go to school… I mean an education of our faith, our mass, why were are really there, why we should be trying to please Christ and not our human or physical senses, keeping the focus on the True Word and the True Sacrifice.
I’m sure that many on this board will agree that there are many, including myself, that are not very educated when it comes to many things in the Catholic faith…However, I am here to learn from others and will keep continuing to study and learn more about my faith.
As far as my desciption of “I keep my head bowed and my hands together like an old picture of a knight or saint at prayer…” Well I’m describing MY posture used during the Our Father, which I relate to you by mentioning something such as one of the saints or knights so you will be able to get a picture of what it looks like without having to attach a picture to this thread…
What do most prayer cards that you normally see with saints on them or pictures of saints or knights in prayer look like ??? They’re not dacing in circles, holding hands with six stringers strumming in the background…
The only judgement that I am making here is that abuses such as the arm waving/handholding are “Personal Initiatives”, only to please the human emotions/senses, which are not a prescribed part of the mass as outlined in the Rubrics and contradict authentic worship…Accordingly they should be rejected…
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Elzee
Guest
Here are a few. Not sure if they all raise to the level of ‘abuse’, but here goes. Some have been mentioned already. From personal experience:
- Hand movements to the Our Father (not sign language,but hand dancing"
- EMHC’s entering the sanctuary before or while the priest is self-commnicating
- EMHC’s giving each other communion in the sanctuary instead of receiving from the priest or deacon
- EMCH’s returning the ciboriums to the tabernacle (and retrieving them) instead of the priest/deacon
- the Psalm reading being replaced with a ‘song based on a Pslam’
- lay people reading the Gospel
- lay people giving the homiliy
- choir members positioned RIGHT NEXT to the altar during Mass (when there is obviously a spot reserved for them in a corner of the church)
- Sunday School children doing a ‘program’ immediately after Communion, complete with dancing and *running *up and down the aisles
- glass vessels
- wine consecrated in glass pitchers
- priests not wearing a chasuble - only an alb and stole
- omitting the Creed on Sundays
- poorly catechized RCIA instructors and deacos, and more sadly, priests and nuns
- talking - boisterous talking - before and after Mass
- talking on cell phones, in the nave, before Mass
- walking in front of the tabernacle and not genuflecting (priests and laity alike)
- Not genuflecting when entering/leaving the pew
- .Not bowing during the Creed
- The altar being used as an accessory table during choir practice, youth meetings, etc (to hold folders, water bottles, etc.
- Priest making a cell phone call from the altar at the beginning of Mass; placing his cell phone on the altar when done
- No crucifix anywhere to be found during Mass
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KnightforChrist
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All,
Please visit this link which gives a good breakdown of the point that is trying to be made here.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/holding_hands_at_mass.htm
Please visit this link which gives a good breakdown of the point that is trying to be made here.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/holding_hands_at_mass.htm
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chotock
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I am a bit confused. The letter’s original question was that hand holding during the Our Father was being done in place of the sign of peace. The answer is in accordance to that question. But what about when it is NOT done as a replacement? (I know the answer I am only pointing out the linked letter is not referring to other situations)
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mystified
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Skipping parts of the canon of the Mass.
Use of EMs on weekdays when only a handful of people are at Mass.
Laymen annointing the sick with the sacred oils (reserved to priests and bishops).
Priests leaving the sacntuary during Mass, for any reason or none.
Horrible music, especially when it seems to be for the self-entertainment of the singers.
Use of EMs on weekdays when only a handful of people are at Mass.
Laymen annointing the sick with the sacred oils (reserved to priests and bishops).
Priests leaving the sacntuary during Mass, for any reason or none.
Horrible music, especially when it seems to be for the self-entertainment of the singers.
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Scottgun
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As much as talking before and after mass is annoying and cavalier and irreverent, does it really properly fall under liturgical abuse? That is, technically the liturgy has not started, etc.
Scott
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ncjohn
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Yes, I was fully aware of what you meant and my reply applies just as much to that as to school education. Many of us are very aware of all of those things you mention, but just find that praying in what is really the more common posture of the church at that time of the liturgy to be more meaningful. That does not mean that we look down on anyone who does not do so, but we expect not to be looked down on either.
Nice, but not relevant. Saints are pictured in the context of their times and prayer cards are artist’s renditions of an ideal state that may or may not have consistently been practiced. Should we also show up in our armor and our medieval costumes so we can look like them? The fact that something was common and acceptable then (and that there is nothing wrong with now) does not mean that it is the exclusive way of doing things.
For instance, Rome insisted for centuries on the Eastern Churches following all the Latin rituals, etc until JP 2 told them to go back to their roots. Liturgy is a man-made institution which is fluid and changeable over time.
Exactly my point. Holding hands is NOT an abuse, unless it is directed to be done by some outside party. When done on personal intitiative it is a licit prayer posture which may actually by now have reached a point of actually complying with the requirements of canon law to be a “tradition”. That being said, it should never be imposed on anyone nor should anyone’s motives for not wanting to participate be questioned.
Additionally, you have no basis whatsoever to be making judgments that something is “to please the human emotions/sense” as you have no way of knowing why I or anyone else does something. In my case, I will make clear that that specifically is NOT true.
Before you continue to claim this as an abuse, you might want to go back through some of the many threads on this topic. The USCCB does not support your contention, there is absolutely nothing from the Vatican that says any such thing, and Redemptionis Sacramentum, specifically written to address liturgical abuses, specifically does not even mention it. Kind of hard to imagine they could have just “missed” such a common complaint. And by the way, there is NO prescribed posture for the hands in the GIRM and the USCCB has specifically answered when asked that there is none, so if you can argue that holding hands can’t be done on that basis, anyone could make the same argument about any position.
I have to admit that I did find your “Wonder Twin” portrayal humorous in an odd sort of way, but if you tell anyone I said so I’ll deny that!
Peace,
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ncjohn
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The fact that the letter specifically does not go on to say there is anything wrong with it is pretty convincing proof that it is not and was not considered an issue except in the context of trying to replace the sign of peace.
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KnightforChrist
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I understand what you’re saying…The main thing I got out of it was about it being an introduced sign on personal initiative that was introduced and also being a sign of intimacy introduced before communion…I love the unfolding per say of the mass…John, I do acknowledge that there is not any formal rule…What worries some and I include myself is, at what point do personal initiatives get out of hand as far as the liturgy ??
I see your point as well…
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chotock
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and I agree with you completely. I have always been a bit of a traditional kinda guy. I prefer the Liturgy as it is written without a lot “intiative” taken.
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