Comon Liturgical Abuses?

[CatholicMetis]

I think a bunch of you need to read the Gospel reading for today. The most important commandment in the whole Church is to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. The second is to love your neighbors as you love yourself.

I think a lot of people here are becoming like the pharisees making the laws and rules more important than Jesus and the Mass itself.

A priest giving a homily today was in Desert Storm. He said when you are in the military and saying Mass on a Hummvee and it starts raining the only thing you worry about is giving the soldiers Communion as fast as you can before the Hosts become unusable and disolves.

I am sure some would say this is an improper Mass as the priest probably should have built a proper Church and had a proper tabernacle and he probably should have said the Mass in Latin or since the Priest couldn’t meet the requirements of you pharisses, maybe he should have not said Mass and denied the soldiers what might be their last chance to attend Mass and receive Communion.

I realize that there is a reason we have the GIRM and that it must be followed if it is practicle but there is a time for the rules to be bent. Do you think Jesus would deny soldiers his Body and Blood just because there is no fancy building or proper altar? Or do you think he would have shown love for his people as this priest did?

You can find abuses anywhere if you look for them. You could find abuses in the TLM if you look hard enough. But maybe, if people focused on Jesus, which is the reason for the Mass, maybe you would be more happy instead of being like the pharisees and pointing out all the violations of the law…something that angered Jesus.

 

[AlexV]

Give me a break.

If a soldier can have a tent, so can the Holy Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

I think a bunch of you need to read the Gospel reading for today. The most important commandment in the whole Church is to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. The second is to love your neighbors as you love yourself.

I think a lot of people here are becoming like the pharisees making the laws and rules more important than Jesus and the Mass itself.

I love being called a Pharisee! I am in good company…
The Apostle Paul of Tarsus, who authored much of the New Testament, spoke positively of being a Pharisee. Acts 23:6 records Paul on trial in the Temple Courts. He apologized for speaking against a priest without knowing who he insulted, and then claimed his belief in the resurrection was based on his doctrinal beliefs as a Pharisee. Paul emphasized the disagreements between Pharisees and Saducees for his own benefit, resulting in his release. As F.F. Bruce notes in a commentary on Acts, “A Sadducee could not become a Christian without abandoning a distinctive theological tenet of his party; a Pharisee could become a Christian and remain a Pharisee–in the apostolic age, at least.” (F.F. Bruce, The Book of Acts, p. 428). The author of Acts indicates that Paul remained faithful to the rituals and practices of a Pharisee even after becoming a Christian.

 

[CatholicMetis]

Give me a break.

If a soldier can have a tent, so can the Holy Mass.

Apparently you haven’t seen the coverage of troops sleeping in the sand next to their tanks and HUMVEEs because when you are in the middle of the combat field you don’t have a tent…that’s if you sleep at all.

 

[AlexV]

What’s your point? Because of some dramatic story about Mass in the desert we’re just supposed to forget about rubrics and the reverence due to the Mass?

In any case, the Sacred Species can always be covered with a pall. It’s NEVER impossible to protect them. I don’t care where you are.

 

[KnightforChrist]

But maybe, if people focused on Jesus, which is the reason for the Mass, maybe you would be more happy instead of being like the pharisees and pointing out all the violations of the law…something that angered Jesus.

Wait, this is the point we are trying to make on this thread…Focusing on Jesus at the mass, especially when Christ in the Eucharist is in our presence after consecration…That is the main point…

 

[kmknapp]

The most serious common abuses I’ve seen:

Homilies with no relation to the assigned Scripture readings, and without immediate pastoral urgency; replacing homily with the Stewardship Appeal video or similar…

Communing the congregation at Mass from the tabernacle instead of with Eucharist consecrated at that Mass.

Individual congregants attempting self-intinction.

Individuals habitually leaving before the dismissal.

karen marie

 

[CRW]

In your own mind, what would you consider “common” liturgical abuses? How would you present these abuses to your priest?

1. Life Teens approaching altar before priest receives Communion
2. Sign of Peace completely
3. Standing to receive Holy Communion; unless disabled
4. Choir practice before Mass
5. Priests and Choir changing the liturgy
6. Talking before and after Mass
7. Options for placement of Tabernacle; center altar in the sanctuary

 

[Walking_Home]

I think a bunch of you need to read the Gospel reading for today. The most important commandment in the whole Church is to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. The second is to love your neighbors as you love yourself.

I think a lot of people here are becoming like the pharisees making the laws and rules more important than Jesus and the Mass itself.

A priest giving a homily today was in Desert Storm. He said when you are in the military and saying Mass on a Hummvee and it starts raining the only thing you worry about is giving the soldiers Communion as fast as you can before the Hosts become unusable and disolves.

I am sure some would say this is an improper Mass as the priest probably should have built a proper Church and had a proper tabernacle and he probably should have said the Mass in Latin or since the Priest couldn’t meet the requirements of you pharisses, maybe he should have not said Mass and denied the soldiers what might be their last chance to attend Mass and receive Communion.

I realize that there is a reason we have the GIRM and that it must be followed if it is practicle but there is a time for the rules to be bent. Do you think Jesus would deny soldiers his Body and Blood just because there is no fancy building or proper altar? Or do you think he would have shown love for his people as this priest did?

You can find abuses anywhere if you look for them. You could find abuses in the TLM if you look hard enough. But maybe, if people focused on Jesus, which is the reason for the Mass, maybe you would be more happy instead of being like the pharisees and pointing out all the violations of the law…something that angered Jesus.

---

Our late Pope was on to that argument. If we are not in the midst of war like conditions there is no justification for bending the rules.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_24021980_dominicae-cenae_en.html

This subordination of the minister, of the celebrant, to the mysterium which has been entrusted to him by the Church for the good of the whole People of God, should also find expression in the observance of the liturgical requirements concerning the celebration of the holy Sacrifice. These refer, for example, to dress, in particular to the vestments worn by the celebrant. Circumstances have of course existed and continue to exist in which the prescriptions do not oblige. We have been greatly moved when reading books written by priests who had been prisoners in extermination camps, with descriptions of Eucharistic Celebrations without the above- mentioned rules, that is to say, without an altar and without vestments. But although in those conditions this was a proof of heroism and deserved profound admiration, nevertheless in normal conditions to ignore the liturgical directives can be interpreted as a lack of respect towards the Eucharist, dictated perhaps by individualism or by an absence of a critical sense concerning current opinions, or by a certain lack of a spirit of faith.

 

[cheddarsox]

My friend, the mass is not about community and I have no need to physically touch someone to pray with them. Our souls pray together.

Yes, the Mass IS about community. Otherwise, we could all stay home and do it ourselves, alone. But that is not the case. We are called to gather in community. To get up, get out, dress up, make the effort to be on time and gather IN COMMUNITY. To put ourselves aside and worship as the Body of Christ.

That is very much what Mass is about.

Physical touch is not neccessary, but neither is it an abuse. It is a natural extension of gathering in community. As I said, I hate the hand holding and the passing of peace, but that is MY personal hurdle. I’m not crazy about getting out of bed on a cold winter morning to get to church either, but that is MY issue, something for me to overcome.

If you don’t want to touch anyone. Dont. It’s as simple as that. It is not in the GIRM that you must. Sit far away, or simply shake your head and keep your hands to yourself. That is your option. But people are not wrong to want to reach out in Christian love and pray the OUR Father in unity.

I think we must all guard against a human tendency to try to justify our personal preferences as “right”, and by default…the other way “suspect”.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

I understand your point, but this is how I personally see it. Jesus Christ has just entered our midst and is now right before us on the altar. I want to focus the “Our Father” on Him, who is now before me - not on my neighbor in an effort to show my community.

If Jesus walked into Church, would people grab their neighbor’s hand or would all attention be on Him and Him alone at that moment? Guess what - He just did!

From the EWTN article linked above in regard to showing commumnity:

While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.
1) It is an inappropriate “sign,” since Communion is the sign of intimacy. Thus, a gesture of intimacy is introduced both before the sign of reconciliation (the Sign of Peace), but more importantly, before Holy Communion, the sacramental sign of communion/intimacy within the People of God.

I have often seen people grab and squeeze a friends hand in a moment of extreme joy and excitement, and it not being about focusing on the friend, but simply sharing the excitement of the wonderful moment they were sharing.

I suspect that many of the gathered would spontaneously grab their neighbors hand. “Look, It’s Christ! He’s here! Joy!”

Again, I don’t like the hand holding, because I am funny about touching strangers, but I refuse to condemn either the act or those who participate in it. It is an act of honor, unity and joy. No matter how personally uncomfortable I am with it, it is not an attempt to draw focus away from Christ, or to Protestantize the Mass, or most of the other nonsense that people sling.

cheddar

 

[estesbob]

1. Life Teens approaching altar before priest receives Communion
2. Sign of Peace completely
3. Standing to receive Holy Communion; unless disabled
4. Choir practice before Mass
5. Priests and Choir changing the liturgy
6. Talking before and after Mass
7. Options for placement of Tabernacle; center altar in the sanctuary

\

I agree about the choir pracitce before the mass as does my wife-who LEADS the choir in practice before mass. The problem in in some Parishes(our for example) there is no room whatsover for the choir to practice anywhere else. Alhtough i am not a muisician my wife tells me you can not just have 20 people walk n cold and start singing. She tries to end 10 minutes beofre mass to give som meditation time.

We are adressing this, BTW, by building a Church expansion with a practice room-of course the expasion is not just for the choir room-a Church that has no room for its choir gnerally has space limitations in a multitude of areas.

 

[KnightforChrist]

I suspect that many of the gathered would spontaneously grab their neighbors hand. "Look, It’s Christ! He’s here! Joy!"cheddar

I understand that we should be joyful, yes, we all are…Christ is before us…

If we were to share the joy with our neighbors that Christ is with us by holding hands, then after the words of concecration there would have been a rubric inserted saying for us to join hands then and celebrate this joy…

Why would we wait until the Our Father ?

Christ comes to us during the consecration…

 

[estesbob]

I understand that we should be joyful, yes, we all are…Christ is before us…

If we were to share the joy with our neighbors that Christ is with us by holding hands, then after the words of concecration there would have been a rubric inserted saying for us to join hands then and celebrate this joy…

Why would we wait until the Our Father ?

Christ comes to us during the consecration…

Well actually he’s already in the Tabernacle when we walk in. Pehaps we should all just join hands and dance around the aisles(as a sign of community, of course) from the moment we walk in until mass is over.

 

[patrick457]

Holding the Hands during Our Father,
and Liturgical Dancing.

At least that’s probably the reason SARS appeared, God wanted to stop the people to hold hands during the Our Father so He made a virus that would scare the people into not holding hands (at least in the Philippines, during the SARS scare many people did not hold hands in the Our Father during that time).

 

[patrick457]

Well actually he’s already in the Tabernacle when we walk in. Pehaps we should all just join hands and dance around the aisles(as a sign of community, of course) from the moment we walk in until mass is over.

A ‘Dance till you drop’ Party?

I can’t imagine it…On one side you’ve got ballet, then over the Altar you’ve got Breakdancing, over the choir you’ve got pop dancing, and over the aisles, ‘Interpretative Dance’.
Better sing ‘The Lord of the Dance’ while we’re at it.

I guess to stop Liturgical Dancing, we need to put these signs up our Churches…
oxfiles.blogspot.com/2006/07/new-from-catholic-sign-company.html

 

[netmilsmom]

Yes, the Mass IS about community. Otherwise, we could all stay home and do it ourselves, alone. But that is not the case. We are called to gather in community. To get up, get out, dress up, make the effort to be on time and gather IN COMMUNITY. To put ourselves aside and worship as the Body of Christ.

That is very much what Mass is about.

No what you are speaking about is a horizontal worship. Where the community is as important as the miracle taking place. A Holy Mass is valid when said by a priest alone. A Holy Mass with a priest and one other person is just as valid. The community you speak of is the souls of people coming together in the Body of Christ. No physical touching is required.

If you don’t want to touch anyone. Dont. It’s as simple as that. It is not in the GIRM that you must. Sit far away, or simply shake your head and keep your hands to yourself. That is your option. But people are not wrong to want to reach out in Christian love and pray the OUR Father in unity.

So really, it’s all about those who what to and not about those who don’t right? Those who don’t want to be touched have to be made to feel uncomfortable in using a prayer posture foreign to Catholics in history?

Let’s again read from the Diocese of St. Louis…
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?
BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989
No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

 

[netmilsmom]

Well actually he’s already in the Tabernacle when we walk in. Pehaps we should all just join hands and dance around the aisles(as a sign of community, of course) from the moment we walk in until mass is over.

That’s been my question for a long time.
Why only at the Our Father?
Why not at the Creed, or the Gospel?
Aren’t we a community from the moment we walk in there?

 

[estesbob]

That’s been my question for a long time.
Why only at the Our Father?
Why not at the Creed, or the Gospel?
Aren’t we a community from the moment we walk in there?

As we disuss in our parish as we anticipate a Church expanision to accomodate summer visitors arent we Catholics community every second of the day?

 

[ncjohn]

That’s been my question for a long time.
Why only at the Our Father?
Why not at the Creed, or the Gospel?

Because the introduction to the Our Father is an invitation to pray together to the father as our savior taught us–an invitation to a communal prayer of praise and petition–the only time in the liturgy that such a call is made. You may argue that we don’t need the symbolism of the holding hands to accomplish that and I would not disagree. That’s why it is not required. But we also don’t “need” the symbolism of many other gestures or activities present in the Mass. The fact is though that symbols speak to our spirit, which is why the Church wisely and widely included them in the liturgy. And it is also fact that not every sign and symbol speaks to every individual, which is why there is a variety of them, and NONE of them are mandated for response by the laity. Pretty much the only required motions are the stand, sit, kneel, and bow or genuflect.

As to why not at the gospel or the Creed, the gospel is to be listened to with no call to prayer. The Creed is a profession of faith, not a prayer. There is no other similar call to communal prayer in the liturgy that I can think of. It is the main reason that I know of, since it is a specific communal prayer, which truly is the prayer of the community to Our Father. The symbolism may not speak to you, but it truly does to a great many of us.

And yes, there is a “community aspect” to the Mass according to Vatican 2. While the praise is certainly vertical, there is a horizontal component to us as the Body of Christ. I’ll pull the specific document and quote if you’d like to see it. Yes the Mass is valid with just a single attendee, but that is not the norm or preferred situation. It is primarily a calling to the people of God to worship.

Peace,