Comon sense will tell you why Virgin Mary had no other Child but Jesus

[Reformed]

Based on what? Certainly not scripture.

I understand when Scripture speaks of Jesus’ brothers and sisters, Catholics will state that they were his cousins. Did you know Peter had a wife? Marriage is a blessing from the Lord, and so are children according to Scripture. I think your priests and nuns should marry, allowing them to serve God better…that’s just an opinion. If Mary was a perpitual virgin, what happened to Joseph according to Roman Catholic teaching?

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers [2] are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

• Mark 3

Footnotes
[2] 3:32 Other early manuscripts add and your sisters

 

[adstrinity]

Children are a blessing from the Lord, and I beleive Joseph and Mary received additonal blessings of children from God.

Oh yes, because Jesus wasn’t a good enough blessing, they needed additional blessings. Of course. Passing the Creator of the world from her womb isn’t enough, it behooved God to give this Holy couple more children.

I understand when Scripture speaks of Jesus’ brothers and sisters, Catholics will state that they were his cousins.

No. We will state that they were his relatives. Not necesarily cousins.

Did you know Peter had a wife?

Yes. Do you know if she was still alive when Peter was called?

Marriage is a blessing from the Lord, and so are children according to Scripture.

Marriage is a blessing from God. Chilren are a blessing from God.

I think your priests and nuns should marry, allowing them to serve God better…that’s just an opinion.

This would never work! How would marriage benefit them and the person they would marry? They have to remain celebate. That is NOT how their spouse should live. …Wait, do you mean they should live like the Irish monks from the 500 to 1500s? Live for God and sleep next to beautiful women just to show they do have strong self control and cannot be tempted? Even so, there’s a high chance that they could have sex, and that’s not the vocation of a priest or nun.

If Mary was a perpitual virgin, what happened to Joseph according to Roman Catholic teaching?

He took care of Mary and Jesus.

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers [2] are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

• Mark 3

Footnotes
[2] 3:32 Other early manuscripts add and your sisters

So…? Did his relatives not do His Father’s will? Did they say, “Hey, Your Mom and her children are outside?” I read, “your Mother and your brothers.”

 

[JonNC]

Based on what? Certainly not scripture.

This is exactly why, as Triune Unity stated, Lutherans believe this is left up to a Christian’s free conscience. Scripture does not definitively state either way. I myself, mainly because of Christ’s action of giving His mother John, believe the BVM was ever-virgin. My pastor, on the other hand, believes He had siblings.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

I understand when Scripture speaks of Jesus’ brothers and sisters, Catholics will state that they were his cousins. Did you know Peter had a wife? Marriage is a blessing from the Lord, and so are children according to Scripture. I think your priests and nuns should marry, allowing them to serve God better…that’s just an opinion. If Mary was a perpitual virgin, what happened to Joseph according to Roman Catholic teaching?

Hmmmm, that’s funny. St. Paul would disagree with you.

1 Cor. 7:2-74, he emphatically states that not being tied down to a spouse frees him to serve the Lord better:

***"Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then *do not look for a wife. **
***I should like you to be free of anxieties. An *unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. **
**But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. A

***n *unmarriedwoman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. **
***A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. ***

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

31 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers [2] are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

• Mark 3

Footnotes
[2] 3:32 Other early manuscripts add and your sisters

I’m curious - show me where it states that these are children of Mary.

The “brothers” listed are the children of the “other Mary” at the foot of the cross, the wife of “Clopas” (also translated as “Alphaeus”)

 

[elvisman]

This is exactly why, as Triune Unity stated, Lutherans believe this is left up to a Christian’s free conscience. Scripture does not definitively state either way. I myself, mainly because of Christ’s action of giving His mother John, believe the BVM was ever-virgin. My pastor, on the other hand, believes He had siblings.

Jon

Do you adhere to Sola Scriptura?

 

[emeraldcoast]

Luke 20:43
**For David himself in the Book of Psalms says: ‘The **Lord said to my lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."’
**How about after? **
**Do his enemies eventually win? **
Does he sop sitting at the right hand?

2 Samuel 6:23
. . . the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death."
Did she have a child after she died?

1Cor 15:25
"For He must reign UNTIL He has put all His enemies under His feet."
How about after? Does it stop?

1 Tim 6:14
"…that you keep the commandment without stain, blameless UNTIL the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
When Jesus comes back, do we still obey the commandment?

Deut 34:6
Moses died, "…and no one knows his grave 'UNTIL this day."
Have we found Moses’ grave?

Tell me, Emerald - what does "UNTIL" mean to YOU?

In the case of Matthew 1:24-25, until would mean that they did not have union (sex) before Jesus was born, but did afterwards. It doesn’t say they never had sex - other passages allude to Jesus’ brothers which others have posted.

I would like to understand why some believe is it so important that Mary remain a virgin after Jesus’ birth? The miracle is that Jesus was born of a virgin - not that she remained that way forever.

God Bless!

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

If Mary were the “spouse of the Holy Spirit”, that would make Jesus the “Son of the Holy Spirit” instead of being the Son of God the Father.

Jesus was already the Son of God even before He became incarnate.

He is not the Son of God because Mary gave birth to him; He was the Son of God before that. Actually, He was/is the Son of God for all eternity. He is the Son of God because He is the Word of God, begotten in God’s infinite mind. (May I recommend the book “Theology for Beginners” by Frank Sheed - he explains it much better.)

If Mary is “the new Eve”, then how can Jesus properly be called the new “Adam” as Paul referred to Jesus?

Yeh - I understand. The Church is the new Eve. But I’ve heard that Mary is the personification of the Church. (I’m not sure exactly what that means, but I think it means that if the Church was a person she’d be somebody exactly like Mary.)

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

The “spouse of the Holy Spirit” notion is interesting to think about in the context of Joseph…

Why did Joseph want to secretly separate from Mary?

 

[TriuneUnity]

The “spouse of the Holy Spirit” notion is interesting to think about in the context of Joseph…

Why did Joseph want to secretly separate from Mary?

To not bring her shame.

 

[adstrinity]

And ANOTHer thing! I read just yesterday that St. Jude is related to Jesus, and is noted to have looked like Him. I took a look at the pictures of St. Jude and even the Icon of him resembles Jesus.

I thought this was pretty cool, myself; that the two relatives could look alike so much that it is preserved 2,000 years later.

 

[JonNC]

Do you adhere to Sola Scriptura?

In the historic, reformation era sense, yes. In the modern, American evangelical sense (solo scriptura), no. Though I don’t see the relevance.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

In the historic, reformation era sense, yes. In the modern, American evangelical sense (solo scriptura), no. Though I don’t see the relevance.

Jon

**I believe it is relevant because the belief that Mary had other children is a “tradition of men”. **
It is a belief that came some 1500 years into Church history.

 

[elvisman]

In the case of Matthew 1:24-25, until would mean that they did not have union (sex) before Jesus was born, but did afterwards. It doesn’t say they never had sex - other passages allude to Jesus’ brothers which others have posted.

I would like to understand why some believe is it so important that Mary remain a virgin after Jesus’ birth? The miracle is that Jesus was born of a virgin - not that she remained that way forever.

God Bless!

In my post #24, I explaned aout the “brothers of the Lord”:
The “brothers” listed are the children of the “other Mary” at the foot of the cross, the wife of “Clopas” (also translated as “Alphaeus”). Again - show me where it says that these were the children of Jesus’ mother, Mary.

Mary is Theotokos (God bearer) - she was the fulfullment of the prefigurement, which was the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark held the symbol of the Word of God. Mary, on the other hand, held that actual Word made flesh.

**A superficial study of the scriptures will show you that in the Old Testament, the rituals and the instruments used therein were prefigurements - symbols of the real things in the New Testament. **
For example, here are just a few:
**Noah’s salvation throu water - Baptism **
The passover - our deliverance from death
The paschal lamb - Jesus
The Ark - Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.

**The Ark was to remain untouched and pure. Only the High Priest could touch it. As good a man that Joseph was, he is not the fulfillment of the high priest - Jesus is. Mary knew this and Joseph knew this. Joseph knew that Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit. He knew what his role was. **

It’s sad that many today have forgotten - or rather reufed to believe. But, that’s the legacy of the rebellion of Protestantism - thousands of bickering and differing views instead of the unity that Jesus prayed for (John 17).

 

[JonNC]

I believe it is relevant because the belief that Mary had other children is a “tradition of men”.
It is a belief that came some 1500 years into Church history.

That may or may not be so, but it didn’t come from Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli, nor from the Anglicans. The Augsburg Confession, at least in the Latin translation, refers to the BVM as ever-virgin. From a Lutheran perspective, believing in her perpetual virginity, and therefore lack of additional children, is not in conflict with scripture, and is not oppositional to sola scriptura.
The proliferation of the “Jesus had brothers” belief is, I believe, a much later development. If I’m wrong, I’m sure someone will correct me.
Jon

 

[TriuneUnity]

That may or may not be so, but it didn’t come from Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli, nor from the Anglicans. The Augsburg Confession, at least in the Latin translation, refers to the BVM as ever-virgin. From a Lutheran perspective, believing in her perpetual virginity, and therefore lack of additional children, is not in conflict with scripture, and is not oppositional to sola scriptura.
The proliferation of the “Jesus had brothers” belief is, I believe, a much later development. If I’m wrong, I’m sure someone will correct me.
Jon

To the best of my knowledge in the early church period, the only notable theologian who disputed Mary’s ever virginity was Helvidius.

 

[elvisman]

To the best of my knowledge in the early church period, the only notable theologian who disputed Mary’s ever virginity was Helvidius.

And that’s why St. Jerome blasted him - and rightly so - with his work, “THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF BLESSED MARY: Against Helvidius”.

There is no evidence that this was a widespread belief. That came much later.

 

[elvisman]

That may or may not be so, but it didn’t come from Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli, nor from the Anglicans. The Augsburg Confession, at least in the Latin translation, refers to the BVM as ever-virgin. From a Lutheran perspective, believing in her perpetual virginity, and therefore lack of additional children, is not in conflict with scripture, and is not oppositional to sola scriptura.
The proliferation of the “Jesus had brothers” belief is, I believe, a much later development. If I’m wrong, I’m sure someone will correct me.
Jon

That’s exactly my point - the belief that Mary had other children came much later. It is therefore a “tradition of men” and is not to be found in scripture - nor anywhere else in early widespread Christian belief.

 

[JonNC]

That’s exactly my point - the belief that Mary had other children came much later. It is therefore a “tradition of men” and is not to be found in scripture - nor anywhere else in early widespread Christian belief.

…and much later than Luther.
Jon

 

[TriuneUnity]

…and much later than Luther.
Jon

Both positions would actually be a tradition of men since Scripture says nothing about the issue. Both sides have to use human, historical, and theological reasoning without an affirmation or denial from the apostolic writings.

 

[RobHom]

JonNC… you are correct!! In fact, the link below or following this sentence will give direct quotations to not only what Luther said regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, but also documented comments by other principal “Reformers”, davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm to include Calvin, Zwingli, Bullinger and Wesley.

One might think it odd that a “Catholic” (like myself) might use the writings of the “Reformers” to bolster the Catholic position… But here is a reality check…They all agree with the Catholic position regarding The Blessed Virgin Mary!! This not only where Mary is considered “Ever Virgin”, but Luther states that she was free of Original Sin…(Immaculate Conception), and he further states that Mary did not have any “other” children after Christ.

Calvin pretty much labels “Helvidius” a “fool”…

Some interesting reading on that link…and on this subject, I am in agreement with the “Reformers”…

I hardly think that some “modern-day” “Johnnie come lately” who needs a bone to pick with the Catholic Church… has any better grasp on Holy Scriptures than the Church and the Reformers…at least on these points!

Historical/Scriptural Revisionism = Propaganda/Pablum for the gullible.