Comparative Mysticism

[Bakmoon]

This is a topic that Vouthon and I have talked about starting but never really got around to it. It started as a comparison of the meditative and contemplative practices in our religions and branched out a bit from there. Everyone feel free to add their insights and comparisons as they see fit.

For starters, I think it would be good idea to clear up some terminology. I know that the terms contemplation and meditation have certain meanings in the Catholic mystical tradition, but I can’t precisely remember the distinction.

Secondly, I think it is important to discuss the respective goals of such spiritual practice and how they relate to the ideals of our respective religions.

Looking forward to everyone’s responses.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear brother Bakmoon,

It is great to see you here on CAF again

I am somewhat busy at the moment however I am still going to participate in this thread today and I look forward to future discussion in the coming days, as well. Its a topic dear to my heart. I learned so very much from our past discussions, which were a true joy for me to contribute to in the “Ask a Buddhist threads” which IMHO were arguably the most successful interfaith threads I have yet seen on CAF. Some top-notch discussion.

I think that clarifying our respective terminologies would indeed be a good place to start since otherwise we could mean different things under different names and this could lead to some confusion; and the goals of our respective spiritual practice would be the natural second in that respect.

With that in mind, I will begin with the distinction between meditation and contemplation (or contemplative prayer) in the context of the mystical tradition of Catholicism.

When people think of meditation, in the popular mindset, it is often more similar to the Buddhist use of the word ‘meditation’ than the traditional Christian understanding of that particular term. Thus meditation is often associated with breathing exercises or a still, motionless silence - often with the eyes closed - conjoined with various sitting postures, which leads to a controlling and focusing of the mind that attempts to, perhaps using a technique such as a focus on the breath, quiet the mind from its mental chatter - ie noticing a thought when it arises and then returning to one’s breathing. Ultimately the goal is to see the ephemerality and changeability of our thinking, discursive, concious mind and to go deeper than that surface intellect - to recognise that because we can see our thoughts, we are not our thoughts, our thoughts are not us, they are fleeting. This leads one to greater awareness and to go deeper, bringing greater clarity of our nature as human beings and reality.

The word is thus used to refer to a spiritual practice which has as its goal something “non-discursive”.

In Catholic spirituality, the equivalent to such a notion would be “contemplative prayer”.

Meditation is actually, for us, “discursive”, to do with discursive thought about a subject to gain greater understanding of it. For instance, one can read a short passage from Sacred Scripture and meditate on it, get into the context of the passage, what it means for you personally, search for deeper meanings. For Catholics scripture has five senses. It could also mean to think deeply on a property of the Godhead, such as the eternity of God, the impassibility of God, the impermanence of the universe, or the consequences of turning away from God. Meditation can even involve the mental faculty of imagination. As an example, there are sections of St. Ignatius of Loyola’s Spiritual Exercises which instruct the meditator to envisage actual scenes from the life of Christ and imagine what it would feel like to experience those events.

Such writers as St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila advised beginners to devote much time to discursive meditation which will often eventually lead to contemplation.

The goal of meditation is to purge us of our affections and through the senses prepare ourselves to go beyond the senses altogether in contemplation, where we do not use sense at all whether mental or physical.

Contemplation is quite different and closer to what Buddhists often mean when they refer to meditation. Contemplation is non-discursive prayer which does not use images, thoughts, representations etc.

Contemplation is itself further broken down into two subdivisions: active and passive contemplation or natural and supernatural contemplation. Active contemplation is to actively seek to quiet the mind by controlling one’s train of thought and resting in God’s presence. In Hesychasm, Eastern Catholic mysticm particularly, it can often (but not necessarily) involve various systematic techniques such as breathing exercises, postures, navel-gazing and the like. In the West breathing exercises are recommended by such luminaries as St. Ignatius of Loyola, and there are various other techniques more akin to Samadhi in Buddhism such as the Cloud of Unknowing’s recommendation that one focus upon a short word or phrase.

(continued…)

 

[Vouthon]

The lowest level of this active contemplation can be called a “natural state of emptiness” which anyone can attain with the right intention. It helps train our mind to reach a state of emptiness where we can simply be open to the coming of our Eternal Bridegroom, God, who resides in our soul unknown and undetected by us, until he awakens us to his presence in the levels of contemplation.

As Ruusbroec explains:

“…All creatures are naturally inclined towards rest and therefore both the good and the bad seek rest in many different ways. Now notice that whenever a person is bare and imageless in his senses and devoid of activity in his higher powers, he enters a purely natural state of rest. All persons can find and possess this kind of rest in themselves by merely natural means, apart from God’s grace, provided only that they can become empty of images and all activity…Consider now the way in which a person practices this natural rest. It consists in sitting quietly in a state of idleness, without any interior or exterior exercises, in order to find rest and have it remain undisturbed…The rest which they possess consists in an emptying of their inmost being, something to which they are inclined by both nature and custom. One cannot find God in this state of natural rest, but it does bring a person into that state of emptiness which can be attained by all persons…The rest which one attains in this state of emptiness is both satisying and deep…it arises naturally in everyone whenever he empties himself of all activity…”

- Blessed Jan Van Ruusbroec (1294-1381), Flemish mystic & Catholic priest

Passive contemplation is a grace from God that makes us aware of His presence in the most intimate sense. It takes us beyond knowledge, forms, images, the senses and the like to the extent that we rest in a state of unknowing in, initially, episodes of rapture where one might lose self-awareness all together for periods of time and in the later stages we can be rapt up into the very embrace of the Holy Trinity Itself, where one becomes deified by the grace of God. To quote Ruusbroec, the mystical subject goes out of itself

“

into a state of darkness devoid of particular form,” [8] it enters a “state of essential bareness…a fathomless abyss of simplicity,” [9] goes into “inaccessible height and unfathomable depth…a dark stillness and a wild desert,” [10] and meets the “wild darkness of the Godhead.” [11] All distinctions fade away, all differences are emptied of their content, and, in a moment of divine self-abnegation, the mystical subject enters “that dark stillness in which all lovers lose their way.”

Passive contemplation is the highest form of prayer and at deeper levels it can involve a great degree of spiritual pain and confusion as God’s revelation of Himself dispels our preconceptions of reality and gives us true wisdom. This stage is known by Catholic mystical writers as The Dark Night of the Soul.

With much effort and patience in dedicated practice active contemplation can become habitual, unceasing to the extent that we are not even aware that we are praying it is just so spontaneous and second nature. This forms the rigt environment for passive contemplation to take root, however passive contemplation comes not from the effort or will of man. Only God can and does at times bestow passive contemplation upon people.

Saint John of the Cross explained contemplation as follows:

“…In prayer come empty, do nothing…The reason is that now in this state of contemplation, the soul has left discursive meditation and entered the state of proficients…At this time God does not communicate Himself through the senses as He did before, by means of the discursive analysis and synthesis of ideas, but begins to communicate Himself through pure spirit by an act of simple contemplation, in which there is no discursive succession of thought. The exterior and interior senses of the lower part of the soul cannot attain to this contemplation. As a result, the imaginative power and phantasy can no longer rest in any consideration nor find support in it…Since God introduces a person into this night to purge his senses, and accommodate, subject, and unite the lower part of his soul to the spiritual part by darkening it and causing a cessation of discursive meditation, this person gains so many benefits-- though at the time this may not be apparent to him–that he considers his departure from the fetters and straits of the senses a sheer grace…Thus, no one … can disturb the mind that is liberated and purged of all things and united with God. She enjoys now in this state a habitual sweetness and tranquility which is never lost or lacking to her…”

***- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), Catholic mystic & Doctor of the Church ***

 

[Julia_Mae]

For starters, I think it would be good idea to clear up some terminology. I know that the terms contemplation and meditation have certain meanings in the Catholic mystical tradition, but I can’t precisely remember the distinction.

There is a great deal written about these things, which Vouthon has certainly covered quite well. To me, the difference is about doing something or doing nothing.

In meditation we do something. We use our minds to imaginatively create a scene on which we focus. Or we provide ourselves with an image, such as the Divine Mercy image and behold it while we pray.

In contemplation, we stop. There’s a lot of talk about clearing your thoughts or letting them go and emptying the mind all of that and we do. But while that happens, I don’t think it’s what it is, really. It’s about intent. It’s sort of like freeing the soul from the mind in order to intend. Our active thoughts are just the “me” being emergent. The soul’s intent is union with God. “Naked intent stretching to God” as Cloud puts it. (Intent is a noun, here, not an adjective.) Underhill writes in the forward and quotes:

His whole being must be set towards the Object of his craving if he is to attain it: “Look that nothing live in thy working mind, but a naked intent stretching into God.”

While it’s true that the author recommends a word repeated can be used, it is not necessary. Underhill then makes the distinction between contemplation and prayer disciplines:

Further, there is to be no willful choosing of method: no fussy activity of the surface-intelligence.

In my experience, the difference between meditation and contemplation is that in the former we are seeking something and in the latter we are surrendering everything. And that everything includes being anything at all that is not God. That is: we surrender existence apart from Him.

I also think that while we can make general distinctions, there is a great danger in thinking we can draw parameters around this.

Secondly, I think it is important to discuss the respective goals of such spiritual practice and how they relate to the ideals of our respective religions.

I don’t know the goal of the Buddhist. I hope you’ll tell us that or give a few links and quotes so we can understand.

But the Church says the goal (vocation) of every human being is to show forth the face of God and be transformed into the image of Christ. It’s my opinion from reading the mystical writings of various cultures, that we all agree with this - even though different words are used in place of “Christ.” The apprehension of the Christ concept is pretty universal, even in writings the precede the incarnation.

Prayer is part of reaching that goal. Contemplation (or perhaps for you meditation) is the most direct route and most powerful tool to reaching that goal.

 

[Loving_disciple]

Hmmm I wonder

 

[Vouthon]

Hmmm I wonder

You wonder what LD? Do tell

 

[SteveVH]

We have a method of praying Scripture called lectio divina. The steps are as follows:

1. Lectio (reading a Scripture passage)
2. Meditatio (meditation/reflection on the passage. This is where one listens to the voice of God with confidence that He will give us what he wishes to give us).
3. Oratio (prayer in which we respond to what God has given to us).
4. Contemplatio (Rest, letting go of our ideas, plans, meditations, words and thoughts. We simply rest in the Word of God. We listen at the deepest level of our being to God who speaks within us with a still small voice).

This is a method of having a conversation with God, using both mediation and contemplation in order to do so. Just thought that this may give you some idea of how we define those words.

When we speak of true “mystical” prayer, in the Catholic sense, we are speaking of something that is not attainable through the efforts or methods of any human being. It is beyond our intellect completely and consists of the direct union of the human soul with God. The only common attribute between Christian mystics seems to be a life of holiness. The experience is reached by living a life of contemplation and love but is completely dependent upon God’s initiative to bring one into direct union with Him. It cannot be achieved through one’s own will.

 

[Vouthon]

We have a method of praying Scripture called lectio divina. The steps are as follows:

1. Lectio (reading a Scripture passage)
2. Meditatio (meditation/reflection on the passage. This is where one listens to the voice of God with confidence that He will give us what he wishes to give us).
3. Oratio (prayer in which we respond to what God has given to us).
4. Contemplatio (Rest, letting go of our ideas, plans, meditations, words and thoughts. We simply rest in the Word of God. We listen at the deepest level of our being to God who speaks within us with a still small voice).

This is a method of having a conversation with God, using both mediation and contemplation in order to do so. Just thought that this may give you some idea of how we define those words.

When we speak of true “mystical” prayer, in the Catholic sense, we are speaking of something that is not attainable through the efforts or methods of any human being. It is beyond our intellect completely and consists of the direct union of the human soul with God. The only common attribute between Christian mystics seems to be a life of holiness. The experience is reached by living a life of contemplation and love but is completely dependent upon God’s initiative to bring one into direct union with Him. It cannot be achieved through one’s own will.

An excellent post Steve, as with Julia’s above

 

[Vouthon]

It was the mystic known as Guigo II who first delineated the systematic schema of lectio divina that we know today comprised, as you outlined above, of Lectio, Meditatio, Oratio & contemplatio.

I would like to quote a small excerpt from his spiritual classic, The Ladder of Monks which gives the 4 stages:

"…**THE LADDER of MONKS **
by
Guigo II (1140-1193)

ONE DAY while I was occupied with manual labor

I began to reflect on man’s spiritual work,

and suddenly four steps for the soul came into my reflection:

reading,

meditation,

**prayer**,

   **[and] contemplation**

*lectio

scilicet meditatio,

oratio

  contemplatio*

THIS is a ladder for monks

by means of which they are raised up from earth to heaven

It has [only a] few separate rungs, yet its length is immense and incredible:

for its lower part stands on the earth,

while its higher [part] pierces the clouds and touches the secrets of heaven.

JUST as its rungs have various names and numbers,

so also so they differ in order and merit;

and if one diligently searches out their properties and functions - what each [rung] does in relation to us, how they differ from one another and how they are ranked-

he will regard whatever labor and study he expends as brief and simple compared with the great usefulness and sweetness [he gains].

Reading is careful study of [Sacred] Scripture,

with the soul’s [whole] attention:

Meditation is the studious action of the mind

to investigate hidden truth, led by one’s own reason.

Prayer is the heart’s devoted attending to God,

so that evil may be removed

and good may be obtained.

**Contemplation is the mind suspended -somehow elevated above itself - in God

so that it tastes the joys of everlasting sweetness. **

HAVING assgned descriptions to each of the four rungs,

we must see what their functions are in relation to us.
…

IN order to focus more clearly what we have already said at length, we will gather it into a summary. In what was said above it has been shown through examples how these three rungs interrelate with each other, and how they precede one another another in both the orders of time and causality.

Reading, like a foundation, comes first: and by giving us the matter for meditation, it sends us on to meditation.

Meditation diligently investigates what is to be sought; it digs, so to speak, for treasure which it [then] finds and exposes: but since it is of itself powerless to obtain it, it sends us on to prayer.

Prayer, lifting itself with its whole strength to God, pleads for the desired treasure - the sweetness of contemplation.

[Contemplation’s] advent rewards the labors of the other three; it inebriates the thirsty soul with the sweetness of heavenly dew.

**Reading accords with exercise of the outward [senses];

meditation accords with interior understanding;

prayer accords with desire;**

contemplation is above all senses.

The first degree pertains to beginners,

The second to the proficient,

the third to devotees,

the fourth to the blessed…"

Guigo II explained this further in his treatise, “The Twelve Meditations”:

“…Let all my world be silent in your presence, Lord, so that I may hear what the Lord God may say in my heart. Your words are so softly spoken that no one can hear them except in a deep silence. But to hear them lifts one who sits alone and in silence completely above one’s natural powers, because the one who humbles oneself will be lifted up…This is the state of my soul, my God, this is the state of my soul: It is a land waste and void, it is invisible and formless, and there is darkness upon the face of the abyss. Yet even this abyss lends me its voice. This abyss, deep and dark, calls to an abyss which is far above it. The abyss of my mind cries out to you, Lord, who are beyond all that sense can perceive, asking you to create out of me a new heaven and a new earth. Most wonderful Creator, if still you perform this work which you performed in ancient days, why do you not then work it in my soul, which is waste and void, darkness upon the face of the abyss. Say, “let there be light, and there will be light.”…”

***- Guigo II (1140-1193), Carthusian mystic (The Twelve Meditations) ***

On the stage of contemplatio Blessed Ruusbroec clarifies what is meant by contemplation being above “all senses”:

“…If we want to feel God’s indwelling in us [we need to] strip our memory of sensual images and our understanding of spiritual images…And therefore, too, such enlightened men are, with a free spirit, lifted up above reason into a bare and imageless vision, wherein lives the eternal indrawing summons of the Divine Unity; and, with an imageless and bare understanding, they pass through all works, and all exercises, and all things, until they reach the summit of their spirits…Here our reason and every activity characterized by the making of distinctions must give way, for our powers now become simply one in love, grow silent, and incline toward the Father’s face, since this revelation of the Father raises the soul above reason to a state of imageless formlessness and bareness. There the soul is simple, spotless, and pure, empty of everything. In this pure emptiness the Father reveals his divine resplendence, which neither reason nor senses, neither rational observation nor distinctions can attain…”

***- Blessed John Ruusbroec, (1293-1381), Flemish mystic & Catholic priest ***

 

[SteveVH]

It was the mystic known as Guigo II who first delineated the systematic schema of lectio divina that we know today comprised, as you outlined above, of Lectio, Meditatio, Oratio & contemplatio.

I would like to quote a small excerpt from his spiritual classic, The Ladder of Monks which gives the 4 stages:

Yes, I read this several years ago. Thanks for this!

 

[hazcompat]

The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6)
Re: The Ascent of Mount Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul

"John did not write them as an artist who wishes to form a fully conceived and well rounded whole. Nor did he want to construct, as a theologian, a system of mysticism nor, as philosopher and psychologist, a complete, extended doctrine on the passions. He wrote as a father and teacher for his spiritual sons and daughters. He wished to comply with their request that he explain his spiritual songs. "

Quoting .Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross

Chapter 14 entitled The Kinds of Divine Union

“We must remember here that John has distinguished three kinds of union with God. 1 By means of the first God dwells substantially in all created things and sustains their existence. By the second, we are to understand the indwelling of God in the soul through grace; by the third, the transforming union through perfect love that divinizes the soul.”

From The Philokalia

St Gregory Palamas, supporting his argument with frequent quotations from the fathers, maintains that there is a distinction-in-unity between God’s essence and His energies.
The divine essence signifies God’s absolute transcendence, and we humans will never participate in it, either in this life or in the age to come. The divine energies, on the other hand, permeate the entire creation, and we humans participate in them by grace (§§ 65, 78). Thus deification (theosis) and union with God signify union with God’s energies, not His essence (§ 75). That which the energies effect and produce is created, but the divine energies themselves are supernatural, eternal and uncreated (§§ 72-73). The energies are Trinitarian, proceeding from all three persons at once.

further…
Our theosis is in no sense merely symbolical or metaphorical: it is a genuine
and specific reality, a pure gift of grace experienced even in this present life.

…i have to run but hope to contribute to this thread

Peaced

 

[AbideWithMe]

Well written, as usual, Vouthon. Thanks for starting it, Bakmoon. I’m subscribing as a reader to this thread.

 

[Bakmoon]

Excelent post, Vouthon. It is most illuminating as usual.

There definitely is some overlap in how the terms meditation and contemplation are used in the Buddhist tradition and how you have described them, although they aren’t the same.

The term contemplation is used to describe the non-discursive practices and the term meditation is the most general sense to include all such practices, both discursive and non-discursive.

Is there any literature on the transition from meditation into active contemplation? When practicing active contemplation, where is the mind’s attention placed?

Also, what are the key characteristics of this natural state of emptiness you mention? Are there any key features of it?

It’s good to be back. Thanks for all the posts everyone!

 

[hazcompat]

Is it all simply prayer?

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

Contemplation and meditation are points of departure, faith is the path, union with the uncreated is the goal?

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church(CCC)

2567 God calls man first. Man may forget his Creator or hide far from his face; he may run after idols or accuse the deity of having abandoned him; yet the living and true God tirelessly calls each person to that mysterious encounter known as prayer. In prayer, the faithful God’s initiative of love always comes first; our own first step is always a response. As God gradually reveals himself and reveals man to himself, prayer appears as a reciprocal call, a covenant drama. Through words and actions, this drama engages the heart. It unfolds throughout the whole history of salvation.

2626 Blessing expresses the basic movement of Christian prayer: it is an encounter between God and man. In blessing, God’s gift and man’s acceptance of it are united in dialogue with each other. The prayer of blessing is man’s response to God’s gifts: because God blesses, the human heart can in return bless the One who is the source of every blessing.

Prayer begins in heaven

A desire to meditate or contemplate begins with God
peace

 

[Julia_Mae]

The only common attribute between Christian mystics seems to be a life of holiness. The experience is reached by living a life of contemplation and love but is completely dependent upon God’s initiative to bring one into direct union with Him. It cannot be achieved through one’s own will.

I’ve been thinking about this and I want to say that I don’t believe it’s correct.

I think what we see in the known Christian mystics is the result of pursuing contemplation, but I don’t think there is any requirement that we must be living holier or more loving lives than others in order to attain it.

That union with God, however brief, changes us. People who have a regular contemplative practice, who experience the oneness, become averse to things “not-God.” It is God’s Presence that drives out even the desire to sin, it makes what was formerly tempting into something disgusting, it makes other people beautiful to us.

We cannot start there, obviously. If a person desires God, if they give the time to Him, if they intend, then by God’s action they are changed. But they can start out right where they are, doing nothing but pursuing union through surrender and willingness. Great sinners are called to contemplation and God gives His Grace to the most unlikely, it would seem to us, people.

We don’t change our lives and then pursue union with God. We pursue union with God and He does everything else.

 

[notself]

Contemplation and meditation are points of departure, faith is the path, union with the uncreated is the goal?

Peace

Nibbana is referred to as the uncreated, unborn, unmade. Nibbana is the goal of Buddhists.

 

[Bakmoon]

Nibbana is referred to as the uncreated, unborn, unmade. Nibbana is the goal of Buddhists.

Welcome to the thread my firend

 

[Vouthon]

Contemplation and meditation are points of departure, faith is the path, union with the uncreated is the goal?

Peace

Very well put!

The mystical tradition would concur:

“…To be converted to the truth means nothing else but a turning from the love of created things, and a coming into union with the uncreated Highest Good. And in one who is thus converted there is a joy beyond conception, and his understanding is unclouded and not perverted by the love of earthly things…”

***- Pseudo-Dionysius (5th century), Syrian mystic ***