Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

[Servant19]

Since I am not getting the answers to the questions asked about Mohammed and Ali quoted in the Bible as claimed by Bahais, I think these will not be forthcoming at all. More irrelevant diversions are are just time wasters as seen above. Therefore I will bow out at this juncture unless there is an update on the Mohammed and Ali claims.

As mentioned before, open new threads for new claims/questions. I may participate if there is value add.

Oh, as a Bahai you can interpret things as you so choose. But to the point of making false and misleading claims? That is why I worry for you. Any one can make claims but expect to back it up. The thing is you don’t. So isn’t the best way out is if you can’t back it up, don’t make a false claim? Bearing false witness is one of the “don’ts” in the 10 commandments. Consequences are extremely nasty. So, I’ll leave you to ponder over what I just wrote.

Hope you find truth eventually.

I beg to differ Eric.

What is the basis for the two witnesses being Muhammad and Ali? I have no other reason to believe that it is other than faith in Baha’u’llah and His unerring Word.

There is absolutely no difference here when compared to John the Baptist being the return of Prophet Elijah. What basis is there in this assertion? Nothing more than faith in Jesus “because He said so”…Jesus made the claim. What did He back it up with? Was Jesus bearing false witness too?



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[Techno2000]

There is absolutely no difference here when compared to John the Baptist being the return of Prophet Elijah. What basis is there in this assertion? Nothing more than faith in Jesus “because He said so”…Jesus made the claim. What did He back it up with? Was Jesus bearing false witness too?



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Did the flesh of John the Baptist also contain the soul of Elijah inside it ?

 

[Servant19]

We reject Bahai theology because it is in conflict with what the New testament says.

I beg to differ Ignatius. It is in conflict with what most of the Churches today have “interpreted” the New Testament says.

In actuality, there is no verse in the New Testament that the Baha’i religion is in conflict with.

We welcome the scrutiny

In trying to say the Word was more than Jesus we have no reason to believe that, especially of flawed men like Abraham and Moses and especially of mythical figures like Krishna and of figures who didn’t care about God like Buddha.

You introduce flaws because you have a supremacy agenda.
All the Prophets of God did things that today would be deemed “unacceptable behaviour”
The problem is that you bear witness with human eyes.
What you need to do is witness with the “eyes of God”

But you saying John had every right to claim Jesus was unique is puzzling because it is our condemnation and it shows how much John didn’t know. Why would God not educate John that Jesus was no greater than the other prophets? Why would he allow John to write in a way so as to describe Jesus as God? Not a god, not a lesser entity but the eternal all powerful God.

All the why’s relate to Moses too.
Why would He teach a Law, only for it to be the death of the human race?
Why would he obligate circumcision on the Chosen people, only for it to be worthy of the “knife slipping” later on?
There are too many why’s…

Look at how God works Ignatius…so much messy stuff from Judaism to Christianity. You have to work out the mess between Christianity and the Quran before you can even contemplate the Baha’i Faith. You are stuck two Dispensations back!

I can only conclude that if Bahai religion is true each religion deceives it’s own followers because the next religion reveals some horrible truth that the initial religion mislead the original into following. If Christianity is true however the account of the New testament emphasis on Jesus makes sense, because he truly is God, truly is the only begotten son of God. There is none like him.

It is not our fault that we dismiss your prophet, it is the fault of Jesus for setting himself up and guiding the apostles into teaching so highly concerning himself. That would have dangerous implications for Bahai today right? How much as Ali Nuri possibly mislead you into the wrong beliefs? How will the next manifestation condemn Bahai beliefs as going astray? Your religion is a never ending cycle of failure of God and of man.

The next religion revealed some “horrible truths” like original sin, the Trinity, the end of the Law, changing of the Sabbath, abolishing of circumcision, changing the divorce Laws, etc etc.

Does all this not sound familiar Ignatius?
You have work to do to prove the authority of Jesus to the Jews for implying that they were deceived by Moses. And what a deception!

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[Servant19]

Did the flesh of John the Baptist also contain the soul of Elijah inside it ?

I don’t know. All I know is that Jesus is not the Messiah unless the Prophet Elijah comes back from heaven bodily.

What say you?

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[Techno2000]

I don’t know. All I know is that Jesus is not the Messiah unless the Prophet Elijah comes back from heaven bodily.

What say you?

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St. Jerome – St. John the Baptist is called Elijah, not in accordance with foolish philosophers and certain heretics who introduce the topic of metemphychosis (transmigration of souls), but because, according to other evidence of the gospel, he came in the spirit and goodness of Elijah and had either the same grace or power of the Holy Spirit. The austerity of their life and firm resolve were equally strong in Elijah and John. Both lived in the desert. The former girded himself with a belt of skins, and the latter had a similar belt. The former was forced to flee because he accused Ahab and Jezebel of impiety in their lives. John was beheaded because he accused Herod and Herodias of unlawful marriage. There are those who think therefore that John is called Elijah because, just as Elijah would lead the way in the second coming of our Lord (according to Malachi) and would announce that the judge was coming, so John acted at the first coming. And because each was a messenger, either of the first or second coming of the Lord. (Commentary on Matthew 2.11.15)

 

[Servant19]

Firstly you can’t speak about the Catholic Church without understanding her. And it’s trials to spread the Gospel of Christ. Even basic question about the Mass is not even understood. Just very odd.

MJ

What is Mass? It is the source and summit of the Christian life.

What is it that you are looking for Martin?

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[MartinJordan]

What is Mass? It is the source and summit of the Christian life.

What is it that you are looking for Martin?

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You said “for love of humanity”, which means you haven’t even got a rudimentary grasp of it.

And anyone can get find what you newly stated, from the internet.

Can you give a very simple reason it exists, for what and why? It is celebrated the world over so it has to mean something than just saying “source and summit”

MJ

 

[Techno2000]

In actuality, there is no verse in the New Testament that the Baha’i religion is in conflict with.

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It’s the most bizarrest thing, you all are always on the same page with us…but your not.

 

[Techno2000]

Can you give a very simple reason it exists, for what and why? It is celebrated the world over so it has to mean something than just saying** “source and summit”**

MJ

That sounds like the vague words Baha’u’llah would use.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I beg to differ Ignatius. It is in conflict with what most of the Churches today have “interpreted” the New Testament says.

In actuality, there is no verse in the New Testament that the Baha’i religion is in conflict with.

We welcome the scrutiny

You introduce flaws because you have a supremacy agenda.
All the Prophets of God did things that today would be deemed “unacceptable behaviour”
The problem is that you bear witness with human eyes.
What you need to do is witness with the “eyes of God”

All the why’s relate to Moses too.
Why would He teach a Law, only for it to be the death of the human race?
Why would he obligate circumcision on the Chosen people, only for it to be worthy of the “knife slipping” later on?
There are too many why’s…

Look at how God works Ignatius…so much messy stuff from Judaism to Christianity. You have to work out the mess between Christianity and the Quran before you can even contemplate the Baha’i Faith. You are stuck two Dispensations back!

The next religion revealed some “horrible truths” like original sin, the Trinity, the end of the Law, changing of the Sabbath, abolishing of circumcision, changing the divorce Laws, etc etc.

Does all this not sound familiar Ignatius?
You have work to do to prove the authority of Jesus to the Jews for implying that they were deceived by Moses. And what a deception!

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There have plenty of verses brought up and once they are brought up Bahai don’t continue the conversation. For instance Jesus being God’s unique son, Monogenes, in the Greek of John and John’s lack of adding this necessary description to anyone but Jesus is one example of that. Why is Moses in Hebrews called a servant in God’s household, while Jesus is called a Son over God’s household? So I don’t agree that the Bahai interpretation fits naturally into the text of the New Testament. Its an alien interpretation which you have admitted when you said John only had what he had revealed to him and if the Bahai religion is true that is the reason for the error of Christianity today.

We worked off a natural inference in the Gospel and the Bible as a whole, we saw the flaws in Abraham and Moses (thus could not recognise them as equal to Jesus) and we saw Jesus elevated, glorified and specifically called greater than them. Then Muslims come along and say to us the New Testament is corrupt, follow Muhammad and abandon everything in the New Testament for true religion. Then bahai come along and try to salvage the New Testament by forcing another narrative on to it. It doesn’t work, especially as a picture of how God reveals himself. There’s no grace, there’s just confusion. Another way Bahai interpretation does violence to the text is inserting Ali Nuri into the statements Jesus makes about his heavenly Father. I was shocked when i heard this, do you believe the apostles were taught or able to distinguish between the mentions of the true Father (God Almighty) and the lesser father (Ali Nuri)? I don’t think you can possibly make that argument not without assuming a bahai framework which you all but admit the Apostles did not have. Therefore the Apostles and then the subsequent Church were lead to false conclusions yet again because of a lack of clarification.

I do not know what the charge of a supremacy agenda is. Is that what Moses did in revealing the Law which said the other gods are lies and that there is one God? Does that count? Or how about my favourite example of Elijah when he mocked the priests of Baal and taunted their God and then went to to pray how great the God of Israel is. Or is it when Jesus criticised all men and at times states his frustration with them, including his disciples, ultimately leading them to a greater way of Life than they had known before? Or when Paul chastised the Galatian Church for falling behind in their faith. How do none of these violate the so called “supremacy agenda” you accuse me of? I believe what I believe and yes I believe it to be superior to Bahai faith because it is better than Bahai religion. That’s not really something bad unless it’s false. But I’m sure you believe Eastern Orthodox Christianity is totally equal and not at all superior to Bahaism otherwise your charge of a supremecy agenda would be hypocritical.

As far as the law is concerned I admit I am not expert enough to answer your question. Though that does not void your responsibility of addressing the point I have made against Bahai. I think it a powerful argument. The law existed to establish Israel, show the demands of a Holy Nation utterly dedicated to God and we see constantly that Israel failed to follow it. It did lead to death for much of Israel but it also lead to great honour and a great inheritance. Christ then comes to inaugurate a New Covenant which is not like the one established before. The transition is not perfect and indeed there are things in the Old law we cannot do today, but on the nature of God, the main point of my critique, that has remained and only been more fully revealed in Christ. The Bahai view of things leads me to suspect the authors of the New testament, if Bahaism were true, didn’t know what they were talking about and were falsely making Jesus greater than he is, not through any fault of their own but because they lacked a revelation that would have saved the Church from that terrible mistake. Israel never stopped worshipping the true God until sometime after Christianity came when they denied his Son but on a bahai view it seems the Apostles were the first to deny who God truly was, who Jesus truly was ( I.e. not God) and the church followed in suite.

 

[Servant19]

**Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

Romans 2-14**

This is exactly why Baha’u’llah’s world redeeming teachings will become commonplace before mankind realises its Divine Source.

Same thing was done by Jesus.

Mankind is made new by the Manifestation of God

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[Servant19]

That sounds like the vague words Baha’u’llah would use.

Lol

It’s actually the exact words used from a Catholic source

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[Servant19]

It’s the most bizarrest thing, you all are always on the same page with us…but your not.

This is brilliant!

I kid you not, I heard the exact same words directed to a Christian from a Jew when I was at university!

Amazing…

When A Manifestation of God Returns, the opposition returns too, word for word it seems…

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[Servant19]

You said “for love of humanity”, which means you haven’t even got a rudimentary grasp of it.

And anyone can get find what you newly stated, from the internet.

Can you give a very simple reason it exists, for what and why? It is celebrated the world over so it has to mean something than just saying “source and summit”

MJ

I must admit I said “love of humanity” because I was trying to second guess what you were looking for. It’s becoming quite a game Martin

When I went to Mass many moons ago, people said prayers, people sand hymns, the priest did a sermon, people went to partake of the bread and the wine, then people prayed again.

The bread and wine is Jesus’ body and blood which is a transubstantiation, which when consumed joins the partakers with the spirit and the body of Christ, which is supposed to do something which I don’t fully understand, because many people still walk out and dislike Muhammad, call Him satanic and readily accuse Muslims and Bahais and Sikhs and Mormons (a massive chunk of the world) as living a false life under false pretences.

I don’t know if the Church teaches that, but there lies the problem, I don’t know…

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[MartinJordan]

I must admit I said “love of humanity” because I was trying to second guess what you were looking for. It’s becoming quite a game Martin

When I went to Mass many moons ago, people said prayers, people sand hymns, the priest did a sermon, people went to partake of the bread and the wine, then people prayed again.

The bread and wine is Jesus’ body and blood which is a transubstantiation, which when consumed joins the partakers with the spirit and the body of Christ, which is supposed to do something which I don’t fully understand, because many people still walk out and dislike Muhammad, call Him satanic and readily accuse Muslims and Bahais and Sikhs and Mormons (a massive chunk of the world) as living a false life under false pretences.

I don’t know if the Church teaches that, but there lies the problem, I don’t know…

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It’s not a game. It seems you really don’t know what the Mass is. Never will I play games when it comes to Jesus who showed us the Father.

How can you even talk about Mohammed? Im talking to you Servant and you jump to things like hating Mohammed. Please no more deviating and will ask a Mod to intervene here if you keep this up. I’m serious.

So, now , What is the Mass?

MJ

 

[Techno2000]

Lol

It’s actually the exact words used from a Catholic source

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Servant 19… What is Mass? It is the source and summit of the Christian life

Well I thought you could have thrown in a little more detail in there seeing that Bahaism is the fulfillment of Catholicism.

 

[Techno2000]

This is brilliant!

I kid you not, I heard the exact same words directed to a Christian from a Jew when I was at university!

Amazing…

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We are at least in the same book.

 

[Servant19]

It’s not a game. It seems you really don’t know what the Mass is. Never will I play games when it comes to Jesus who showed us the Father.

How can you even talk about Mohammed? Im talking to you Servant and you jump to things like hating Mohammed. Please no more deviating and will ask a Mod to intervene here if you keep this up. I’m serious.

So, now , What is the Mass?

MJ

Outside of what I have shared, I hope you can share what it is.

I’m confident that whatever you tell me it is, I will probably know, I’m just not sure what you’re looking for.

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[Servant19]

We are at least in the same book.

That’s not what the Jew said

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[Techno2000]

This is exactly why Baha’u’llah’s world redeeming teachings will become commonplace before mankind realises its Divine Source.

Same thing was done by Jesus.

Mankind is made new by the Manifestation of God

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You always have to come back to… Jesus and the Bible to try and make some sense… never Muhammad, never Krishna and never Buddha.