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Techno2000
Guest
De fide (of the faith)
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Servant19
Guest
Techno,
What is your understanding of what this means:
God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De Fide)
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Techno2000
Guest
It means only the Divine can know the Divine. The blessed in Heaven know the Father through Jesus, but they can never comprehend God completely because they aren’t Divine.
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ericc
Guest
We have done this before in the “Is Muhammad foretold in the Bible?” thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13518719&postcount=146Hi ericc,
Could you please share with me these historic facts that you have checked?
I am sincerely interested in what these are that has convinced you in this direction. Thankyou
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Seriously, if you have to resort to spiritual or invisible explanations each time your prophecy is not supported literally, it may be smarter, intellectually honest and efficient just not to bring it up. Invariably someone will do the background checks and discover what was claimed was not supported by historical data, Then you have to bring up all the spiritual, invisible, mystical, enlightened speak just to avoid admitting that those claims can not be substantiated. Please note that I didn’t say they were false, just not substantiated. It may be real for you. To us substantiation means some kind of verification. If I were to claim that I flew from Tokyo to London in an invisible pink jet plane in less than a minute spiritually , that is not substantiation. It appears real to me because I dreamt it spiritually, it appears real but it is not substantiated. It is not apparent at all. Not even a whiff that it is remotely possible. Same as for your prophecy. The dots don’t connect.
At the end, there is just no hard evidence that your prophet was a “manifestation” of God. Bahaullah may be a wise and spiritual man, but he is not God material. He is a self -claimant. Gathering all prior religions into one basket and explaining that the God of each religion is actually the same just can not be true. If at each manifestation God is telling the prophet that the prior him is no longer valid, then your god has lied to each religion, every time. The Christian God never change because he is all Truth. Truth doesn’t change from one period to the other. The God of Abraham is the God of Moses is Christ himself. Where as the Bahai god changes to whatever century he finds himself in. If your god is omniscient, omnipotent, all truth, all good, all wise, there is no need to disguise himself and fake himself at each manifestation. Can’t he be at least be true to himself? Why lie?
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TonyBS
Guest
The confusion is ours, what we make and not Gods.
Baha’u’llah explains all this with simple ease. This is taught to young children of all Faiths around the world and they have no issue with it at all. They see the One and only God in all religions and embrace Progressive Revelation with all their pure hearts.
Comments made above just prove what complexities can be raised if we have preconceived knowledge.
God bless you with much Love Regards Tony
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TonyBS
Guest
The simplicity of the Oneness of God can be seen in these Logical Explanations.
“The function and purpose of a shepherd is to gather and not disperse his flock. The prophets of God have been divine shepherds of humanity. They have established a bond of love and unity among mankind, made scattered peoples one nation and wandering tribes a mighty kingdom. They have laid the foundation of the oneness of God and summoned all to universal peace”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 14)
“They will ascertain the truth that the purpose of religion is the acquisition of praiseworthy virtues, betterment of morals, spiritual development of mankind, the real life and divine bestowals”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15)
“The fundamental truth of the Manifestations is peace. This underlies all religion, all justice. The divine purpose is that men should live in unity, concord and agreement and should love one another”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 50)
“The wisdom and purpose of their training is that man must pass from degree to degree of progressive unfoldment until perfection is attained”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 77)
“God sent all His Prophets into the world with one aim, to sow in the hearts of men love and goodwill, and for this great purpose they were willing to suffer and to die. All the sacred Books were written to lead and direct man into the ways of love and unity…” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 106)
“All the Manifestations of God came with the same purpose, and they have all sought to lead men into the paths of virtue”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 120
This link has many more - bahai-library.com/compilation_purpose_manifestations_god
Regards Tony
“The function and purpose of a shepherd is to gather and not disperse his flock. The prophets of God have been divine shepherds of humanity. They have established a bond of love and unity among mankind, made scattered peoples one nation and wandering tribes a mighty kingdom. They have laid the foundation of the oneness of God and summoned all to universal peace”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 14)
“They will ascertain the truth that the purpose of religion is the acquisition of praiseworthy virtues, betterment of morals, spiritual development of mankind, the real life and divine bestowals”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15)
“The fundamental truth of the Manifestations is peace. This underlies all religion, all justice. The divine purpose is that men should live in unity, concord and agreement and should love one another”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 50)
“The wisdom and purpose of their training is that man must pass from degree to degree of progressive unfoldment until perfection is attained”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 77)
“God sent all His Prophets into the world with one aim, to sow in the hearts of men love and goodwill, and for this great purpose they were willing to suffer and to die. All the sacred Books were written to lead and direct man into the ways of love and unity…” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 106)
“All the Manifestations of God came with the same purpose, and they have all sought to lead men into the paths of virtue”. (Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 120
This link has many more - bahai-library.com/compilation_purpose_manifestations_god
Regards Tony
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Techno2000
Guest
And why would a manifestation create a perfect religion that till this day its followers say it needs no more Revelations, did the manifestation do too good of a Job ?
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TonyBS
Guest
John 16:12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.…"
This is more than obvious there was more to come and that it was not Jesus the Christ that would bring that message.
Regards Tony
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Techno2000
Guest
You twisting things again, the Church came before the Bible so all Revelations and truth are contained within the Catholic Church. Bahaism is an outside source of unbiblical Revelation.
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God,** the pillar and foundation of the truth.
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1 Timothy 3:15
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TonyBS
Guest
I twist not a thing, Gods Word is His Word and His Messengers are His Messengers.
I but a Servant to Gods Word as we all are.
That I see it different is Free will gifted bybour One and Only God.
That God chooses to Reveal His Names as He does is not of my doing.
Regards Tony
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Techno2000
Guest
Reveal His Names:shrug:
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worldcitizen
Guest
Ericc,
One of the proofs of a Manifestation of God is His Life and Teachings and how they directed the course of civilisation.
How does a single soul from amongst men, arise alone & singlehandedly to champion a cause of truth and establish His ascendancy over all the peoples of the world without the power of God and the Holy Spirit and all of this despite His followers being persecuted, oppressed and tortured?
The lives and influence and deeds of Beings like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad Krishna, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah have had an effect on humanity no man could possible have had.
History is replete with examples of the influence these Beings have had on civilisation. Things like mathematics, science, astronomy, physics, chemistry and medicine alone. Not to mention the nation state. All these Manifestations had ‘Golden Ages’. Of inventions, sciences, arts, architecture. Just so much. Not to mention moral and spiritual guidance.
Baha’is say that nothing but the power of God achieved these things and all these Manifestations were just channels acting to do His Will.
One of the proofs of a Manifestation of God is His Life and Teachings and how they directed the course of civilisation.
How does a single soul from amongst men, arise alone & singlehandedly to champion a cause of truth and establish His ascendancy over all the peoples of the world without the power of God and the Holy Spirit and all of this despite His followers being persecuted, oppressed and tortured?
The lives and influence and deeds of Beings like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad Krishna, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah have had an effect on humanity no man could possible have had.
History is replete with examples of the influence these Beings have had on civilisation. Things like mathematics, science, astronomy, physics, chemistry and medicine alone. Not to mention the nation state. All these Manifestations had ‘Golden Ages’. Of inventions, sciences, arts, architecture. Just so much. Not to mention moral and spiritual guidance.
Baha’is say that nothing but the power of God achieved these things and all these Manifestations were just channels acting to do His Will.
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Techno2000
Guest
Did the "Manifestations of God’ all have the same DNA ?
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worldcitizen
Guest
My opinion yes and no.
Physical DNA no. They each had their own identity and personality
Spiritual DNA if there is such a thing yes. They all taught truth from the same God. The Rays of one sun.
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eddie_too
Guest
the bahai will probably try to explain away the following as they have done with every aspect of the Gospel of Jesus Christ given to us through the successors of the apostles.
bahaullah, unlike Jesus, lived out a natural life. the bahai say that RCs reject bahaullah just as the jews rejected Jesus. that is not true. this is a complete misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. bahaullah was not a member of the RC faith as Jesus was a member of the jewish faith. Jesus was rejected by the leaders of His faith for fulfilling that faith’s prophecies and the law. bahaullah, on the other hand, is rejected by RCs because he has no faith connection to Roman Catholicism. mohammed is rejected by RCs for the SAME reason. mohammed has no faith connection to RC. whereas Jesus fulfilled the jewish law and prophecies, mohammed and bahaullah have no faith connection to RC.
the reason Jesus was rejected and ultimately murders by the romans was because the jewish leaders at the time saw Him as being a threat to their worldly power. if Jesus was not murdered, the leaders foresaw and believed His following would grow without end. they believed all of the average (those without worldly power) jews would give their loyalty to Jesus instead of to them, the law and the temple. the only way to stop Jesus’ acclaim and following was to get rid of Him. if Jesus had lived His life to a natural conclusion as bahaullah did, we do not know what would have become of Him in this mortal state. unlike bahaullah,
Jesus could not even have a home of His own, because the people would not permit it. they gathered around Him in such numbers that He and His apostles had to live in abandoned shacks to escape the crowds. bahaullah did not have that problem. bahaullah was not viewed by the authorities of his time as a significant threat to their worldly power and thus they had no reason to murder him. yes, they acted to stop his free movement lest his followers become a serious threat to their power, but that imposed isolation was sufficient to put an end to his followers threatening to grow beyond control as in the case of Jesus.
bahaullah, unlike Jesus, lived out a natural life. the bahai say that RCs reject bahaullah just as the jews rejected Jesus. that is not true. this is a complete misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. bahaullah was not a member of the RC faith as Jesus was a member of the jewish faith. Jesus was rejected by the leaders of His faith for fulfilling that faith’s prophecies and the law. bahaullah, on the other hand, is rejected by RCs because he has no faith connection to Roman Catholicism. mohammed is rejected by RCs for the SAME reason. mohammed has no faith connection to RC. whereas Jesus fulfilled the jewish law and prophecies, mohammed and bahaullah have no faith connection to RC.
the reason Jesus was rejected and ultimately murders by the romans was because the jewish leaders at the time saw Him as being a threat to their worldly power. if Jesus was not murdered, the leaders foresaw and believed His following would grow without end. they believed all of the average (those without worldly power) jews would give their loyalty to Jesus instead of to them, the law and the temple. the only way to stop Jesus’ acclaim and following was to get rid of Him. if Jesus had lived His life to a natural conclusion as bahaullah did, we do not know what would have become of Him in this mortal state. unlike bahaullah,
Jesus could not even have a home of His own, because the people would not permit it. they gathered around Him in such numbers that He and His apostles had to live in abandoned shacks to escape the crowds. bahaullah did not have that problem. bahaullah was not viewed by the authorities of his time as a significant threat to their worldly power and thus they had no reason to murder him. yes, they acted to stop his free movement lest his followers become a serious threat to their power, but that imposed isolation was sufficient to put an end to his followers threatening to grow beyond control as in the case of Jesus.
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eddie_too
Guest
another aspect of the bahai religion that i find puzzling if not completely unacceptable is the bahai teaching that it is ok to believe whatever you like so long as you believe what they believe.
if you see that as total sophistry as i do, you understand that it is as meaningless a statement as could be written because the bahai teachings are contradictory to the teachings of other religions. it would be far more honest if the bahai said that they reject the Holy Trinity (which is a christian concept), they reject the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (which is a christian concept), they reject the resurrection of the Lord’s physical body (which is a christian concept).
but they do not do that, instead they say they reject our interpretation of these doctrines, a difference without a distinction. again, an exercise in sophistry. of course, this raises a good question. why do the bahai need to try (in a very deceptive and sophist way) to align their teachings with those of christianity while simultaneously rejecting the essence of the teachings of Jesus Christ?
this is why, time and again, we read bahai posts in these forums saying that their teachings are the same as christian teachings when they are the complete opposite of the Gospel handed down to us by the successors to Jesus’ personally consecrated, selected and trained twelve apostles.
a person cannot logically and simultaneously profess faith in the teachings of bahaullah and the teachings of Jesus Christ because these two different teachings are irreconcilable.
i would have far more respect for bahaullah and his followers if they were honest about their intentions. if the bahai taught that Jesus was wrong and that bahaullah rejected Jesus and His teachings as false, i could understand and respect such a teaching. i would still reject it, but without the prejudice created by the sophistry of bahaullah’s followers.
if you see that as total sophistry as i do, you understand that it is as meaningless a statement as could be written because the bahai teachings are contradictory to the teachings of other religions. it would be far more honest if the bahai said that they reject the Holy Trinity (which is a christian concept), they reject the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (which is a christian concept), they reject the resurrection of the Lord’s physical body (which is a christian concept).
but they do not do that, instead they say they reject our interpretation of these doctrines, a difference without a distinction. again, an exercise in sophistry. of course, this raises a good question. why do the bahai need to try (in a very deceptive and sophist way) to align their teachings with those of christianity while simultaneously rejecting the essence of the teachings of Jesus Christ?
this is why, time and again, we read bahai posts in these forums saying that their teachings are the same as christian teachings when they are the complete opposite of the Gospel handed down to us by the successors to Jesus’ personally consecrated, selected and trained twelve apostles.
a person cannot logically and simultaneously profess faith in the teachings of bahaullah and the teachings of Jesus Christ because these two different teachings are irreconcilable.
i would have far more respect for bahaullah and his followers if they were honest about their intentions. if the bahai taught that Jesus was wrong and that bahaullah rejected Jesus and His teachings as false, i could understand and respect such a teaching. i would still reject it, but without the prejudice created by the sophistry of bahaullah’s followers.
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eddie_too
Guest
from this quotation of a bahai post:
"The lives and influence and deeds of Beings like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad Krishna, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah have had an effect on humanity no man could possible have had.
History is replete with examples of the influence these Beings have had on civilisation. Things like mathematics, science, astronomy, physics, chemistry and medicine alone. Not to mention the nation state. All these Manifestations had ‘Golden Ages’. Of inventions, sciences, arts, architecture. Just so much. Not to mention moral and spiritual guidance."
this quotation displays another bahai belief that is the opposite of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. all of the figures mentioned above were men. they were not some kinds of super non-human spiritual beings. that may be what the bahai believe, but it is the opposite of what Jesus Christ taught us.
"The lives and influence and deeds of Beings like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad Krishna, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah have had an effect on humanity no man could possible have had.
History is replete with examples of the influence these Beings have had on civilisation. Things like mathematics, science, astronomy, physics, chemistry and medicine alone. Not to mention the nation state. All these Manifestations had ‘Golden Ages’. Of inventions, sciences, arts, architecture. Just so much. Not to mention moral and spiritual guidance."
this quotation displays another bahai belief that is the opposite of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. all of the figures mentioned above were men. they were not some kinds of super non-human spiritual beings. that may be what the bahai believe, but it is the opposite of what Jesus Christ taught us.
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eddie_too
Guest
progressive revelation is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ; but we RCs do not have the same definition of “progressive revelation” as have the bahai.
our Father in heaven did not use budhha or krishna (and the other hindu gods), or confucious or lao tse to prepare His Chosen People for the coming of this world’s Savior. He did use abraham, moses, and all of the jewish prophets to prepare His Chosen People for the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as their Messiah.
even now the teachings of these influential thinkers (as do the teachings of the non-christian thinkers who came after Jesus) serve only to confuse the teachings of almighty God given to us through His ONLY Son, Jesus Christ.
i do understand that the bahai believe this confusion if the Father’s will. we RCs do not believe God can be the source of confusion for His human creatures.
our Father in heaven did not use budhha or krishna (and the other hindu gods), or confucious or lao tse to prepare His Chosen People for the coming of this world’s Savior. He did use abraham, moses, and all of the jewish prophets to prepare His Chosen People for the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as their Messiah.
even now the teachings of these influential thinkers (as do the teachings of the non-christian thinkers who came after Jesus) serve only to confuse the teachings of almighty God given to us through His ONLY Son, Jesus Christ.
i do understand that the bahai believe this confusion if the Father’s will. we RCs do not believe God can be the source of confusion for His human creatures.
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TonyBS
Guest
That is because any Proof of Christ is Proof of Baha’u’llah
This really is a poor debate issue. The sacrifice of Jesus can never be understated, but 40 years of tortures, persecution and imprisonment can also not be Understated.
There are also many Martyrs of Faith that lived and sacrificed as Jesus did in many religions. There is only One Messenger that Suffered for the length of time Baha’u’llah Suffered by the hands of Man.
Baha’u’llah is rejected for Fulfilling all the Holy Scripture Prophecy of the past. Muhammad also fulfilled Prophecy, that a Christian rejects this does not mean it is not so. In fact given mans record in the past as to accepting the Prophets/Messengers It is more a proof of their missions.
That all prophets/Messengers have a different Mission to carry out and they do it on earth in a different way does not change the Power of the Word in each Message. The reason for persecution was Exactly the same for Muhammad the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Note also that as in the past they did not succeed, they did not succeed with Muhammad the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Gods way not our way.
These comment show you have not looked at the Life of the Bab or Baha’u’llah. All your observations are incorrect. If you read this you will be able to balance your stories with facts reference.bahai.org/en/t/nz/DB/db-2.html
Regards Tony
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TonyBS
Guest
The intention is to let you know their are other views as to life and Faith and this has been stated many times.
The Baha’is come to say all that Jesus the Christ taught is the Truth and nothing but the Truth.
It has already been stated that the Christians, by not accepting Muhammad and the Word of God in the Koran, failed to see that the Doctrines they had formulated were undermining their ability to understand their own Faith.
By rejecting Muhammad the way was paved for the rejection of the Promised Return of Jesus the Christ.
The path back to God for the Christians is the realization of the Oneness of God and His Manifestations and to realize they are part of the Whole and not an elevated Exclusive understanding to the whole.
The oneness of God is Logically all embracing and it is Logically that the only hindrance to this is man and his pride/ego.
Regards Tony
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