Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

[TonyBS]

Beautifully explained.

And we all live All mankind must bow down to the Lord of Life, because he died and rose again so that all Mankind can live and can have eternal life.

MJ

This is great evidence how the Words of Baha’u’llah has penetrated our thoughts without is even knowing.

This explanation fits with what we are telling you about Muhmad the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Strange the great value of these words change when other fruitful prophets are introduced.

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

With this you do not see that Muhammad is the new Christ and that the Bab is the new Muhammad and that Baha’u’llah is the new Combination of them all.

I fail to see how you can now say the Baha’i concept is flawed as you.just explained it.

Regards Tony

No, because Jesus had to be crucified to accomplish this, none of the others can take credit for it.

 

[worldcitizen]

Dear Ericc,

1. Firstly the resurrection. The biggest mistake Biblical scholars and Christians make with the Bible is what to interpret as literal and what to interpret as figurative. The resurrection, Baha’is maintain was figurative/spiritual and not a literal event and is not to be interpreted literally. Too often, we try to interpret literally what should be taken symbolically. The Catholic Encyclopedia lists about 33 parables. Analogies, allegorical speak are everywhere in the Bible.

This is the correct interpretation we believe as it is handed down by a Manifestation of God Who has the wisdom to distinguish the literal from the symbolical.

John 16:25
Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Ezekial 17:1-2
The word of the L ORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell it to the Israelites as a parable.

Psalms 78:2
will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

1. Bahá’ís do not Believe in a Bodily Resurrection After the Crucifixion

“… We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after the resurrection is the same thing.”

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 9, 1947)

1. That the Manifestations are not in the Bible by name as false means one cannot use the Word of God to claim they are false prophets so it is mere personal opinion. But it can be cleared up by Christ on His return which we believe has happened so it’s not an issue for us we now know they were Manifestations Who taught the oneness of God.

PLEASE READ link…

1. bahai-library.com/uhj_beckwith_allegations

Above link. This is another letter that goes into one thing you’ve overlooked. Baha’is only acknowledge authenticated scripture. The passage you are referring to about world peace being established was a ‘Pilgrim’s Note’ and therefore is invalid and had to be removed as it was inaccurately recorded. So it’s not what Abdul-Baha said its what someone said Abdul-Baha said and that’s two entirely different things.

The House of Justice cannot alter Scripture but it can remove pilgrim’s notes that are not authorised and this passage about world peace was wrongly inserted by the author. Abdul-Baha wrote two Tablets which said the 1325 days referred to happenings within the Faith.

Here is the link to the two Tablets of Abdul-Baha clearly stating what was meant by the 1335 days.

PLEASE READ this link for AUTHORITATIVE Tablets from Abdul-Baha on the matter concerned. (1335 days)

bahai-library.com/shoghieffendi_blomfield_passing_abdulbaha

So to recapitulate. The words attributed to Abdul-Baha in Baha’u’llah and the New Era were incorrect and not authenticated by Abdul-Baha. The correct and authentic statement by Abdul-Baha was penned in two Tablets of His which I have provided in the link above.

 

[Techno2000]

Baha’is maintain was figurative/spiritual and not a literal event and is not to be interpreted literally.

And we maintain that this is another gospel and it comes from the devil and is curse by God…

**But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Galatians 1:8

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.

1 Timothy 4:1**

 

[arthra]

Ericc wrote above:

*I compared the 1923 edition vs the 1980 edition. That 1957 prophecy is no longer there. I rest my case. What successive persons say after that is irrelevant. These people do not speak for AbdulBaha. Like I don’t speak for Jesus 2000 years later claiming he said something else. I also don’t erase any portions of the Bible that I don’t agree with.

The International House of Justice was established in 1963, after the death of the last legitimate successor, Shoghi Effendi. Past the due date of the prophecy. Therefore, how much credence can one place on the IHJ? And Shoghi being the designated Guardian left no successor, himself in non-compliance with Bahai laws that every Bahai must have a will. Hence without a legal Guardian, the IHJ stands on questionable grounds of legitimacy.

My comment:Esslemont’s book has been an introductory book to the Baha’i Faithand is revised to include later developmentsin the Faith. It’s not “scripture”. The correct term for the administrative body that serves as the Center of the Faith is “Universal House of Justice”.

Actually Abdul-Baha prior to His passing in 1921 envisioned the House of Justice while He alive in these words:

He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and blending of church and state. This institution is under the protecting power of Bahá’u’lláh Himself. A universal or international House of Justice shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the commands and teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, and that which the universal House of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international House of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)

*The Universal House of Justrice is the Centre of the Cause and meets on the slope of Mount Carmel above Haifa in the Holy Land. The nine members are elected every five years by representatives of the National Spiritual Assemblies world wide.

So I think anyone who questions the legitimacy of the House of Justice may not be informed about how it was already envisioned by Abdul-Baha*.

 

[eddie_too]

Perfect Being is not and indeed cannot be a source of confusion to human beings.

to say such a thing is a slur against almighty God.

the reason that the various faith traditions profess different understandings of creation and its Creator is because that all but one is the result of highly intelligent men attempting to understand this reality.

as to the one faith tradition that is not a result of this very human phenomena, it would be the judeo-christian faith tradition. why say this faith tradition is intrinsically different from all of the others?

because, God Himself created the Chosen People. God Himself decided to set a people apart from the rest of the tribes, cultures and kingdoms of the world. He did this when He made the covenant with Abraham. the evidence for this is overwhelming.

He set the Chosen People apart by His decision, His choice, to create a people for Himself through which He could bring about the forgiveness of sins and the salvation of souls. through which He would Himself become Incarnate.

budhha, confucius, lao tse, mohammed, bahaullah, etc., were highly intelligent men who in general were possessors of a generous attitude toward others and their needs. they set their hearts and minds to teaching the less introspective and the less accomplished ways in which the woes of this world could be better addressed. however, being highly intelligent and of generous heart does not constitute the same thing as being God’s Chosen People.

God Himself spoke to Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to Moses and the rest of the jewish prophets. He did this to keep this people He had chosen faithful to Him and to His laws and teachings. God raised up men to establish and secure a people for Himself.

this direct intervention of God in creating a Chosen people is far different in nature and effect from the efforts of kind and wise men from other cultures. generally, when teachings of human origin are proven more effective than previous teachings of human origin, even the simple recognize the advancement being offered by these wise men. it is from this recognition that the various faith traditions developed, but there is no indication that these men were chosen to present the divine mysteries revealed through the Chosen People and the Incarnate Word. if they had been chosen by God, their teachings would all be consistent.

this explains why some, those without the knowledge, understanding and wisdom that comes to the faithful through the Holy Spirit, created faith traditions that are contradictory and that leads some to raise in the question, why did God make His teachings confusing.

He did not make His teachings contradictory. There is a profound consistency in the judeo-christian faith tradition. God’s only direct intervention subsequent to primordial history (i.e. His directing Noah to build the ark) in to human history begins with Abraham and ends with Jesus Christ.

the wise and holy men of other faith traditions were not given access to the divine mysteries. this fact helps to explain why the other faith traditions have so little to say about eternal life and other divine mysteries such as the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation and the Resurrection. it explains why their teachings are primarily about life in this world.

although the type of direct divine intervention in the affairs of men leading up to and culminating with the Incarnation ended, we can say that through the Lord Jesus’ decision to create a Church wherein the Holy Spirit might indwell, God still directly intervenes. for example, by making the Holy Eucharist available to mankind on a daily basis. through the selection of a successor to Peter and successors to the other apostles. but this intervention through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Roman Catholic Church is not exactly the same as God’s creation of the Chosen People leading to the Incarnation. it does however ensure consistency with God’s early revelations.

in this direction also lies the answer to the question of so many here as to why what so much of what the bahai tell us about bahaullah and his teachings seems so shallow and confusing. they (bahaullah’s teachings) are a fine and good attempt to use human knowledge and understanding to address life’s mysteries. but they are primarily human attempts of human origin. God does not confuse. God is not inconsistent. God cannot provide contradictory teachings as His own to anyone.

 

[worldcitizen]

And we maintain that this is another gospel and it comes from the devil and is curse by God…

**But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Galatians 1:8

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.

1 Timothy 4:1**

So you interpret this literally also???

Luke 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

I say you’re cherry picking Joey.

 

[eddie_too]

also, i would like to remind RCs who read this particular thread that when the bahai ask for support from Sacred Scripture for our RC beliefs, they are not doing so in a good faith attempt to learn and understand our faith. they seek this information so as to make their own preaching more seductive to our brothers and sisters. they do not believe their beliefs are confusing and shallow. they believe what the Lord Jesus taught and what we received from Him through His apostles and their successors is wrong.

they may deny that this is their belief, that Jesus is wrong about the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection and the Holy Eucharist (among many others, but these are among the most basic of RC beliefs).

we should realize that little bits of information here and there, bible verses taken out of context or bible verses made to stand alone (when this can never be the case because all of sacred scripture works together to bring about the Kingdom of God), can only lead to less grace, less knowledge, less understanding and less wisdom.

if the bahai were serious about understanding the Roman Catholic Church, there are thousands of good books that will explain it far better than randomly selected internet posters.

 

[Techno2000]

So you interpret this literally also???

Luke 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

I say you’re cherry picking Joey.

Please don’t take any of this personally David, but I have to use these scriptures as a defence of my religion.

 

[Servant19]

This means God’s face in the pure spirit form would be too bright and dazzling for a mortal man to withstand . Man saw God the Son and lived because he clothed himself in our humanity and became a man like us.

The New Testament means God has done something new… Jesus is the new Adam, the Gentiles are the new Jews, the Church is the new Temple, there is now a new Heaven and new Earth, the old Heaven was closed to man.Jesus bridges the gap between God and Man now because he has a earthly nature and a divine nature.

I agree with you, but the point of that part of my post was, try telling what you posted to the Jews and then follow it up with the words “Jesus is God”

They would feel as though God lied to them…

.

 

[Techno2000]

I agree with you, but the point of that part of my post was, try telling what you posted to the Jews and then follow it up with the words “Jesus is God”

They would feel as though God lied to them…

.

The nature of God was a mystery to them from the start.

 

[Servant19]

The nature of God was a mystery to them from the start.

And they say that Jesus clarified nothing, only made it even more of a mystery…

As our fellow Jewish poster, Kaninchen states about Christianity “I don’t buy a single word of it!”

You and I both know that God doesn’t lie…does He?

.

 

[Techno2000]

And they say that Jesus clarified nothing, only made it even more of a mystery…

As our fellow Jewish poster, Kaninchen states about Christianity “I don’t buy a single word of it!”

You and I both know that God doesn’t lie…does He?

.

 

[Servant19]

Don’t be confused. All I’m saying is that Jews don’t feel Jesus unlocked any mysteries from the Old Testament.

.

 

[Techno2000]

Don’t be confused. All I’m saying is that Jews don’t feel Jesus unlocked any mysteries from the Old Testament.

.

The Jews that converted to Christianity didnt think God lied to them, and they think Jesus did unlock the mysteries of the Old Testament.

 

[Servant19]

The Jews that converted to Christianity didnt think God lied to them, and they think Jesus did unlock the mysteries of the Old Testament.

EXACTLY!!

And the Christians that convert to the Baha’i Faith think that God is being ALL TRUTH in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Not a single lie in the whole of religious history.

God does not lie when you are a Baha’i, never has and never will, but if you are not willing to study the Baha’i Revelation with a pure and sincere heart, then you see lies, but that’s not really lies, it’s the deception that your ego has placed in yourself due to a lack of sincerity, just as it was for the Jews who rejected Jesus…

.

 

[Techno2000]

EXACTLY!!

And the Christians that convert to the Baha’i Faith think that God is being ALL TRUTH in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Not a single lie in the whole of religious history.

God does not lie when you are a Baha’i, never has and never will, but if you are not willing to study the Baha’i Revelation with a pure and sincere heart, then you see lies, but that’s not really lies, it’s the deception that your ego has placed in yourself due to a lack of sincerity, just as it was for the Jews who rejected Jesus…

.

No, the Jewish convert and the Baha’i convert both can’t be right.

 

[MartinJordan]

So you interpret this literally also???

Luke 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

I say you’re cherry picking Joey.

Luke 9:57-62

they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”

58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

59 He said to another man, “Follow me.”

But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.”

62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the Kingdom of God.

We are following Jesus. His Church shows the way. All are invited.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

No, the Jewish convert and the Baha’i convert both can’t be right.

Yes and the Noahide convert to Judaism and the Jewish convert to Christianity can’t both be right either, I agree.

That’s how progressive revelation works

You can work it out from there

.

 

[worldcitizen]

Please don’t take any of this personally David, but I have to use these scriptures as a defence of my religion.

No dear Joey I’m very happy to discuss with you. Please defend. I want you to defend as that is your duty.