Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

[IgnatianPhilo]

We are told by Baha’u’llah that all the people of the world will become believers and are gradually accepting Baha’u’llah.

The Bahai Faith is the only religion in the world that is successful at uniting religions and humanity.

Every person who becomes a Baha’i must accept the Manifestations, saviours, messiahs of all the other Faiths so a Jew on becoming a Baha’i accepts Jesus as well so Imagine all of Israel becoming Baha’is then the Jews would all have accepted Christ!!! And it will happen.

Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus etc have never been able to unite until Bahaullah appeared. Now they are uniting as one.

Baha’is are Christians too. We read the Bible in our Houses of Worship not for show but because we really truly sincerely believe in Jesus and the Bible. So we see you as brothers in Christ. Only our interpretations are different but that does not mean we are not brothers.

The Bahai Faith is like a beautiful garden. A place for peace and reconciliation and a place to put aside our differences and be as one. Just unconditional love and acceptance.

These are claims without much being offered in favour of why we should be believing them. Looking at the landscape of Christianity and how we disagree with the bahai on every major theological point concerning who God is, what he is doing and what he has done in the effort of unifying us? I don’t see any real reason for your optimism. Maybe in the case of liberal churches which are abandoning Christian theology in favour a general theology which deliberately attempts to be focused on unification rather than on truth, but in that case they are no longer Christians or have given up most everything that makes them Christian, like the Episcopalian Church USA which boasts the sort of unification and seeking union with others.

Christians at points in the past before your prophet have been able to unite World. For a brief moment Christendom of the east and west united to turn back the hordes of Islam and ultimately save the west from the disaster of a possibly Islam Europe. Again, I don’t see how it is due to your prophet and not the emergence of a general change in thought, ie the enlightenment, that is the result of modern interfaith methods. You can attribute it all to your prophet, but you are unable to prove that Ali Nuri is the direct cause any more than the Advent of Joseph Smith is the reason that the world is different.

I will include here a response to servant. Christianity directly includes a love for everyone in it, regardless of who they are. This love however is not to be confused for approval of wrong morals or wrong beliefs, but the love we have for fellow sinners who need Jesus. Where in Christianity are we forbidden from loving the Muslim, Jew or Bahai? We are not, we are told to expect suffering because we want to bring them the good news and many Christians suffer in Islamic communities to this day because they live according to their faith, refusing to bend the knee to Islam. Bahai allow for this type of love too, although I would say the bahai do not make it as clear as to what we disagree on and what they definitely affirm, preferring ambiguity to serve a general perception of unity, rather than actual unity. Because when we explore issues of theology in depth we continue to see just how much we are really and truly divided.

In essence for the bahai would vision to go ahead, Christians like me, who actually believe in Christianity, would have to dissapear. You might deny this, but so long as there are people like me around, well you will never have the unity you want and Bahaism will be shown as false.

Also servant in my earlier response I brought up how i do not see Islam as a Nation building experiment particularly belonging in the story of God. I would like you to address that if you could.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The CENTRAL purpose of Judaism wasn’t nation building on a global scale.

Islam brought a Divinely ordained set of laws which were the foundation for the creation of nations globally.

Yes, these laws are outdated now, but they were very successful in bring Divine order at the time. Justice within a nation became a focus.

.

Your right, the central purpose was to establish a kingdom for God on earth. Jews by their own power and lack of faith failed in that. Hence when Jesus came that Kingdom message was no longer for the Jews only, but uniquely through Jesus Christ was given to the whole world.

As far as the laws being outdated I would say they were wrong when they were first revealed. Islam limits for instance the number of wives one could have to four. Christianity encouraged Monogamy from very early on and that rule was the standard for the church during that time. Such a law was a regression to an earlier time, to a time before Christ, not the direction God has set out. This is confirmed because Bahai deny polygamy as well. That’s just one example mind you. the approval of crucifixion in Islam and the Quran is a regression as well. The Byzantine empire had outlawed it naturally with Constantine. You would also agree, it is an evil practice.

I do not see the success brought about by Islamic nation building. I see extensive suffering in the Islamic world though that still exists today.

 

[Servant19]

These are claims without much being offered in favour of why we should be believing them. Looking at the landscape of Christianity and how we disagree with the bahai on every major theological point concerning who God is, what he is doing and what he has done in the effort of unifying us? I don’t see any real reason for your optimism. Maybe in the case of liberal churches which are abandoning Christian theology in favour a general theology which deliberately attempts to be focused on unification rather than on truth, but in that case they are no longer Christians or have given up most everything that makes them Christian, like the Episcopalian Church USA which boasts the sort of unification and seeking union with others.

Christians at points in the past before your prophet have been able to unite World. For a brief moment Christendom of the east and west united to turn back the hordes of Islam and ultimately save the west from the disaster of a possibly Islam Europe. Again, I don’t see how it is due to your prophet and not the emergence of a general change in thought, ie the enlightenment, that is the result of modern interfaith methods. You can attribute it all to your prophet, but you are unable to prove that Ali Nuri is the direct cause any more than the Advent of Joseph Smith is the reason that the world is different.

I will include here a response to servant. Christianity directly includes a love for everyone in it, regardless of who they are. This love however is not to be confused for approval of wrong morals or wrong beliefs, but the love we have for fellow sinners who need Jesus. Where in Christianity are we forbidden from loving the Muslim, Jew or Bahai? We are not, we are told to expect suffering because we want to bring them the good news and many Christians suffer in Islamic communities to this day because they live according to their faith, refusing to bend the knee to Islam. Bahai allow for this type of love too, although I would say the bahai do not make it as clear as to what we disagree on and what they definitely affirm, preferring ambiguity to serve a general perception of unity, rather than actual unity. Because when we explore issues of theology in depth we continue to see just how much we are really and truly divided.

In essence for the bahai would vision to go ahead, Christians like me, who actually believe in Christianity, would have to dissapear. You might deny this, but so long as there are people like me around, well you will never have the unity you want and Bahaism will be shown as false.

Also servant in my earlier response I brought up how i do not see Islam as a Nation building experiment particularly belonging in the story of God. I would like you to address that if you could.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.

You call a Prophet of a religion that produces Saints, false, or even think that He is false, then you have a serious barrier in your religion against unity. This form of thinking divides Gods creation into a label war, not a war between good and evil.

You have an unbelievable Saint of a Muslim sitting there worshipping the one God and loving Him with all His heart and all His soul and a Christian comes along and declares His entire worldview and belief structure, false

No foundation for unity.
I become Christian, that’s what I will be forced to think…thanks, but no thanks

.

 

[TonyBS]

These are claims without much being offered in favour of why we should be believing them. Looking at the landscape of Christianity and how we disagree with the bahai on every major theological point concerning who God is, what he is doing and what he has done in the effort of unifying us? I don’t see any real reason for your optimism. Maybe in the case of liberal churches which are abandoning Christian theology in favour a general theology which deliberately attempts to be focused on unification rather than on truth, but in that case they are no longer Christians or have given up most everything that makes them Christian, like the Episcopalian Church USA which boasts the sort of unification and seeking union with others.

Christians at points in the past before your prophet have been able to unite World. For a brief moment Christendom of the east and west united to turn back the hordes of Islam and ultimately save the west from the disaster of a possibly Islam Europe. Again, I don’t see how it is due to your prophet and not the emergence of a general change in thought, ie the enlightenment, that is the result of modern interfaith methods. You can attribute it all to your prophet, but you are unable to prove that Ali Nuri is the direct cause any more than the Advent of Joseph Smith is the reason that the world is different.

I will include here a response to servant. Christianity directly includes a love for everyone in it, regardless of who they are. This love however is not to be confused for approval of wrong morals or wrong beliefs, but the love we have for fellow sinners who need Jesus. Where in Christianity are we forbidden from loving the Muslim, Jew or Bahai? We are not, we are told to expect suffering because we want to bring them the good news and many Christians suffer in Islamic communities to this day because they live according to their faith, refusing to bend the knee to Islam. Bahai allow for this type of love too, although I would say the bahai do not make it as clear as to what we disagree on and what they definitely affirm, preferring ambiguity to serve a general perception of unity, rather than actual unity. Because when we explore issues of theology in depth we continue to see just how much we are really and truly divided.

In essence for the bahai would vision to go ahead, Christians like me, who actually believe in Christianity, would have to dissapear. You might deny this, but so long as there are people like me around, well you will never have the unity you want and Bahaism will be shown as false.

Also servant in my earlier response I brought up how i do not see Islam as a Nation building experiment particularly belonging in the story of God. I would like you to address that if you could.

God works in Mysterious ways IgnatianPhilo. As the world falls apart more hearts plead with God as to why it is so. As the hearts call to God each is given more of the gift of what we must do to Know and Love God.

It is strange we need hardship and conflict to remember our God. The people that are nearest to God, that is the Manifestations take on The whole worlds sufferings and waywardness in their attempt to open our eyes to Gods Love.

What do we then do but reject them! Consider how strange we are.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.

You call a Prophet of a religion that produces Saints, false, or even think that He is false, then you have a serious barrier in your religion against unity. This form of thinking divides Gods creation into a label war, not a war between good and evil.

You have an unbelievable Saint of a Muslim sitting there worshipping the one God and loving Him with all His heart and all His soul and a Christian comes along and declares His entire worldview and belief structure, false

No foundation for unity.
I become Christian, that’s what I will be forced to think…thanks, but no thanks

.

In case they use the stated example against us, please note we did become a Christian when we accepted Baha’u’llah

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.

You call a Prophet of a religion that produces Saints, false, or even think that He is false, then you have a serious barrier in your religion against unity. This form of thinking divides Gods creation into a label war, not a war between good and evil.

You have an unbelievable Saint of a Muslim sitting there worshipping the one God and loving Him with all His heart and all His soul and a Chrustian comes along and declares His entire worldview and belief structure, false

No foundation for unity.
I become Christian, that’s what I will be forced to think…

.

Producing people who do good may be a point in favour of a religion but it does not prove that religion Servant. Who are these Islamic saints that I ought revere? Who are the Bahai saints I ought acknowledge? You mention them but don’t provide examples so even this claim of yours lack validation. I look to the Orthodox Church and every day we remember a Saint on our Calender, I see the life of a saint like the Holy Martyr Saint Conon of Isauria today in one book. Looking forward in the book I have Saint Sophronius of Jerusalem, a saint I am familiar with is there. I wouldn’t argue that these prove Christianity, but they help make the case for it.

I don’t see you addressing my real point though. How is Ali Nuri unifying us right now? How do you even begin to unify with someone like me who denies all your theological beliefs about who God is? You can say potentially on morals yes, but that’s a surface agreement that for the sake of a society and its good we might accomplish something together. That isn’t religious unity working towards the same end, that’s two world-views collaborating on a project while walking in their respective lanes. in the end I’m heading North on the highway, your heading south on the highway. We diverge and are separated.

Is that the type of unity your arguing for? If so then it’s not a substantial unity.

 

[Servant19]

In case they use the stated example against us, please note we did become a Christian when we accepted Baha’u’llah

Regards Tony

Thank you brother for this important observation

.

 

[arthra]

Servant, If you believe no 100% authentic teachings exists…why does Baha’u’llah believe Krishna even existed as a god? What’s Baha’u’llah claim to Krishna?
I can see the pattern linking up here

Baha’u’llah never stated Krishna “…existed as a god”.

Abdul-Baha mentioned Krishna as a Manifestation of God in the following

An Indian said to 'Abdu’l-Bahá:

“My aim in life is to transmit as far as in me lies the message of Krishna to the world.”

9.1
Abdu’l-Bahá said:

*The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God’s prophets have brought the message of love. None has ever thought that war and hate are good. Every one agrees in saying that love and kindness are best.
*
(Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 35)

*Blessed souls – whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius or Muhammad – were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity.
*
(Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 342)

Note above it is the “message of love” mentioned by Abdul-Baha. The message of “love” is called “Bhakti”…devotion. In the teachings attributed to Krishna you will find such teachings…

Edwin Arnold translated the following verses into English well over a hundred years ago:

*Whoever serve Me- as I show Myself-
Constantly true, in full devotion fixed,
Those hold I very holy. But who serve-
Worshipping Me The One, The Invisible,
The Unrevealed, Unnamed, Unthinkable,
Uttermost, All-pervading, Highest, Sure-
Who thus adore Me, mastering their sense,
Of one set mind to all, glad in all good,
These blessed souls come unto Me.
*
( Bhagavad Gita, Chapter XII (Edwin Arnold tr))

One thing I discovered when I was a teen reading a translation of the Bhagavad Gita was the similarity it had to some of the verses found in the Gospel of John

*15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
I would also recommend a book “The Vedic Experience, An Anthology of the Vedas for Modern Man and Contemporary Celebration”" by Raimundo Panikkar was a Roman Catholic Priest and a Professor of Religious Studies at the University of California Santa Barbara. He passed away in 2010 but you can read more about him at

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raimon_Panikkar

We as Baha’is are unsure of some of authenticity of some of these scriptures but we can acknowledge the teaching of love and “Bhakti”.

also I would direct your attention to the “Lotus Temple” in New Delhi which is a modern focal point of peoples for prayer and meditation.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

God works in Mysterious ways IgnatianPhilo. As the world falls apart more hearts plead with God as to why it is so. As the hearts call to God each is given more of the gift of what we must do to Know and Love God.

It is strange we need hardship and conflict to remember our God. The people that are nearest to God, that is the Manifestations take on The whole worlds sufferings and waywardness in their attempt to open our eyes to Gods Love.

What do we then do but reject them! Consider how strange we are.

Regards Tony

Nice words which sound nice, but there’s no sense of absolute conviction behind them because you lack a coherent answer to the fundamental question I have asked; How is Ali Nuri actually unifying people right now? Perhaps he is working in ways which cannot be seen but you are unable to make the case for that happening right now. Bahai point to the corrupt U.N as an example of unification, yet within that body we see the divisions of the world over turbulent political issues like whether or Not Israel as a Nation should exist. Should Russia be expanding it’s influence when the U.S would prefer it not help Assad? The Chinese government actively persecutes its own Christian citizens when it feels it needs to make an example of them, because of the conflicts between the Marxism of the state and the beliefs of the millions of underground Christians there. Again, the unity is only on a surface level and when you dig deeper, politically, theologically and philosophically division exists and continues in every part of the planet because people want what they want.

Not all people want the unity envisioned by bahai, I certainty don’t and think it would be a huge mistake. So are the Bahai able to make the case for Ali Nuri actively working and show the results of generally more unified world that is not a superficial appearance? I don’t think you can.

 

[worldcitizen]

Christians and Christianity ought to be united in one Faith. They all believe in the same Jesus and Gospels.

“Christ was a divine Center of unity and love. Whenever discord prevails instead of unity, wherever hatred and antagonism take the place of love and spiritual fellowship, Antichrist reigns instead of Christ. Who is right in these controversies and hatreds between the sects? Did Christ command them to love or to hate each other?”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “The Promulgation of Universal Peace.”

 

[Servant19]

Producing people who do good may be a point in favour of a religion but it does not prove that religion Servant. Who are these Islamic saints that I ought revere? Who are the Bahai saints I ought acknowledge? You mention them but don’t provide examples so even this claim of yours lack validation. I look to the Orthodox Church and every day we remember a Saint on our Calender, I see the life of a saint like the Holy Martyr Saint Conon of Isauria today in one book. Looking forward in the book I have Saint Sophronius of Jerusalem, a saint I am familiar with is there. I wouldn’t argue that these prove Christianity, but they help make the case for it.

.

I could fill pages of Baha’i saints Ignatius.
When you have pages of saints it proves the Prophet produced good fruits. A bad tree cannot produce good fruits.

Here are a few:

Martha Root
Louis Gregory
Enoch Olinga
Ali Akbar Furutan
Amelia Collins
Leroy Ioas
Rahmat’ullah Muhajir
Collins Featherstone
William Sears
John Ferraby
John Robarts

The list can go on and on. All left the comforts of their homelands to dedicate their lives in foreign lands towards the unification of mankind and he service of humanity.

You want to tell them that the foundation of all that hard work and dedicated spirit is…false

.

 

[TonyBS]

Nice words which sound nice, but there’s no sense of absolute conviction behind them because you lack a coherent answer to the fundamental question I have asked; How is Ali Nuri actually unifying people right now? Perhaps he is working in ways which cannot be seen but you are unable to make the case for that happening right now. Bahai point to the corrupt U.N as an example of unification, yet within that body we see the divisions of the world over turbulent political issues like whether or Not Israel as a Nation should exist. Should Russia be expanding it’s influence when the U.S would prefer it not help Assad? The Chinese government actively persecutes its own Christian citizens when it feels it needs to make an example of them, because of the conflicts between the Marxism of the state and the beliefs of the millions of underground Christians there. Again, the unity is only on a surface level and when you dig deeper, politically, theologically and philosophically division exists and continues in every part of the planet because people want what they want.

Not all people want the unity envisioned by bahai, I certainty don’t and think it would be a huge mistake. So are the Bahai able to make the case for Ali Nuri actively working and show the results of generally more unified world that is not a superficial appearance? I don’t think you can.

We are strange people. Note how we can easily concentrate on all that we see as negative, whereas there is an ocean of.positive amongst it all.

I would ask you how do you know there is no absolute conviction with the words offered. Thy Kingdom has Come on Earth as it is in Heaven.

How is it happening. Devotion, prayer and most importantly ACTION. God is working His Works as we speak.

Put all ones thoughts into all that is good.

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I could fill pages of Baha’i saints Ignatius.
When you have pages of saints it proves the Prophet produced good fruits. A bad tree cannot produce good fruits.

Here are a few:

Martha Root
Louis Gregory
Enoch Olinga
Ali Akbar Furutan
Amelia Collins
Leroy Ioas
Rahmat’ullah Muhajir
Collins Featherstone
William Sears
John Ferraby
John Robarts

The list can go on and on. All left the comforts of their homelands to dedicate their lives in foreign lands towards the unification of mankind and he service of humanity.

You want to tell them that the foundation of all that hard work and dedicated spirit is…false

.

Yes I would have to say it was false, like how if you are going to be honest you would to dismiss the Christianity of the Christian saints as utterly false and in fact blasphemous to God (in that they worshipped Jesus Christ as God which is against the Quran).

Bahai saints are not my main concern here. My main concern is how is Ali Nuri going to and actually unifying the entire world right now? I just don’t see it. I see division upon division and that so long as man has free will division will continue to exist because people will go where they want to go to.

 

[Servant19]

Yes I would have to say it was false, like how if you are going to be honest you would to dismiss the Christianity of the Christian saints as utterly false and in fact blasphemous to God (in that they worshipped Jesus Christ as God which is against the Quran).

Bahai saints are not my main concern here. My main concern is how is Ali Nuri going to and actually unifying the entire world right now? I just don’t see it. I see division upon division and that so long as man has free will division will continue to exist because people will go where they want to go to.

Please refrain from speaking on our behalf

No Baha’i would ever say that you worshipping Christ as God is false. It requires minor clarifications that’s all. I’m comfortable to call Baha’u’llah God, and so you should be with Jesus. I know no other God to pray to.

I guess one way that Baha’u’llah is unifying humanity right now is through grassroots and institutional education. Grassroots education is training children to practice unity. Institutional education is through the Baha’i NGO at the UN, which is influencing some of the proposals and work of the UN.

It’s gonna happen Ignatius. The world is learning that it has no choice but to find a path to peace.

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

We are strange people. Note how we can easily concentrate on all that we see as negative, whereas there is an ocean of.positive amongst it all.

I would ask you how do you know there is no absolute conviction with the words offered. Thy Kingdom has Come on Earth as it is in Heaven.

How is it happening. Devotion, prayer and most importantly ACTION. God is working His Works as we speak.

Put all ones thoughts into all that is good.

Regards Tony

I like how every time I point out that the question is not being directly addressed Bahai continue to not directly address the Question. The Question is: how is Ali Nuri right now and how is he going to achieve a real lasting and substantive Unity given the amount of division today amongst all people? The World in fact in your view will be unified and we will all be one happy family.

I think history shows how utopian ideas die and we are coming to an era where perhaps more division, violence and evil will be seen than ever before, especially on the political stage of the world. Those sorts of things are happening at the moment, just not in the west, but in Syria and Iraq.

When Christians repeat the our father we do not expect everyone to be unified, we expect the words of Jesus that a Mother will be against her Daughter and a Father against his son. That the word of God divides. The unity within Christianity is that common faith we profess which the world tries to snatch from us, it isn’t pretending that a utopian earthly government is going to solve everything, it’s knowing that Christ is God and he rules now against all earthly principalities.

 

[worldcitizen]

Nice words which sound nice, but there’s no sense of absolute conviction behind them because you lack a coherent answer to the fundamental question I have asked; How is Ali Nuri actually unifying people right now? Perhaps he is working in ways which cannot be seen but you are unable to make the case for that happening right now. Bahai point to the corrupt U.N as an example of unification, yet within that body we see the divisions of the world over turbulent political issues like whether or Not Israel as a Nation should exist. Should Russia be expanding it’s influence when the U.S would prefer it not help Assad? The Chinese government actively persecutes its own Christian citizens when it feels it needs to make an example of them, because of the conflicts between the Marxism of the state and the beliefs of the millions of underground Christians there. Again, the unity is only on a surface level and when you dig deeper, politically, theologically and philosophically division exists and continues in every part of the planet because people want what they want.

Not all people want the unity envisioned by bahai, I certainty don’t and think it would be a huge mistake. So are the Bahai able to make the case for Ali Nuri actively working and show the results of generally more unified world that is not a superficial appearance? I don’t think you can.

From 12 disciples it took a while before Christianity spread and was accepted in both east and west. 2,000 yrs vs 170.

Then, IF you are learned in the Bahai Teachings you will see country after country adopt Bahai laws and teachings DAILY, the source unknown to them yet.

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah brought about world communications and current technology.

God says ‘Be’ and it is. Baha’u’llah said ‘The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’ and then the technology was born not before. Internet. International travel,and communications. All from these Words of Baha’u’llah.

You will find EVERYTHING Baha’u’llah has abrogated is dying out or in the process of declining or being opposed by humanity and EVERYTHING He teaches being promoted as cutting edge and gaining ascendancy.

There are so, so, so many examples of how Bahaullah has changed this world that it’s impossible to convey all of them to you.

Baha’u’llah abolished Holy War. Humanity is opposed to it. It will disappear because it has been decreed. Baha’u’llah decreed the equality of men and women. That was before any modern day feminist. Look around you. How much importance is the status of women gaining worldwide???

Interfaith. It began from a verse in the Most Holy Book in the 1870’s. I remember we were the only ones doing interfaith. Now google it. Pages and pages of interfaith all started by Baha’u’llah’s command for religions to mingle.

Deut18:21-22

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the L ORD ?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the L ORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the L ORD has not spoken. n

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Please refrain from speaking on our behalf

No Baha’i would ever say that you worshipping Christ as God is false. It requires minor clarifications that’s all. I’m comfortable to call Baha’u’llah God, and so you should be with Jesus. I know no other God to pray to.

I guess one way that Baha’u’llah is unifying humanity right now is through grassroots and institutional education. Grassroots education is training children to practice unity. Institutional education is through the Baha’i NGO at the UN, which is influencing some of the proposals and work of the UN.

It’s gonna happen Ignatius. The world is learning that it has no choice but to find a path to peace.

.

If you are okay with us worshipping Jesus as God, that is in our prayers we believe the very essence of divinity and hence the highest form of worship we can offer goes to the essence of God then I suppose you agree with Christians that Jesus is of the same essence as the father. If you disagree with us on this point and say we are still right to worship Jesus in this manner, that is offering our highest devotion to Jesus as God, then I think you dismiss the charge of idolatry. You make a firm distinction in bahai that the manifestations are not the essence of God but a reflection that proceed from him eternally. Flawed men like Abraham and Moses and Muhammad who represent God are not God themselves but mirrors of God, pointing to God. How are you then at all okay with our absolute worship of Jesus? You make the point when pressed that Ali Nuri isn’t really the one God since the One God is beyond all creation and cannot be contained within it. Certainty the mind of Ali Nuri, the person who spoke and wrote words is not the One God who is above all creation or that would imply your God would be limited by mental efforts of the brain. I think I am right to say that you necessarily have to condemn us Christians for worshipping Jesus. You can try to justify it, try to make some excuse for us but in the end we are doing what is forbidden. We are breaking the first commandment and worshipping that which is not God. Or is Jesus God almighty and not in this strange convenient sense that you use the term “God” which I don’t know what It means, but in the ultimate sense of the Supreme entity behind all reality from which everything comes.

You have pointed to the U.N which I consider hopelessly corrupt and inefficient especially in that it’s declarations are doing nothing for much of the world’s problems. Also what does training children to practice unity mean? Does it mean teaching them to believe in bahai teachings and try to convert other children? Christian parents do that their children as well and it doesn’t bring about real unity either.

Either way I don’t see any reason for your confidence because despite the work any bahai organisation does there are countless other Christian organisations helping through charities as well. More so than the Bahai. What makes Bahai organisations or charities different? Do you make everyone hug each other before they receive aid or something?

 

[ericc]

Hi ericc,

You were stating in enlarged wording “Is it acceptable for your god to lie?”

I am pointing out to you that your God lied too?
Gen 17:13 My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Please advise how this is not a lie from God, because I know a heck of a lot of Catholics who are not circumcised in the flesh?

You seem to get have gotten mix-uped. We are discussing the behaviour of your gods. Please refrain from changing this topic of your god to mine. Expanding your catchment area will not help you answer questions about your god. Issues of other Catholics have no bearing on my questions to you about your god(s).

I have already discussed this in this thread with JimmyDFG (in the last page or two) Authenticity of what Krishna and Buddha taught is severely dented.
I can give you quotes where Krishna states there is only one God and Buddha described what can only be God, but it’s pointless because I don’t know if anything I quote is authentic.

If you are not sure whether your quotes are authentic or not, why do you rebuke me for not getting my fact right? That is shameful.

And I am waiting for your rebuttal of my quote that say Krishna prayed to another god other than himself. That will make your allegation of monotheism invalid. There is nothing invalid about my quote isn’t it?

I don’t look for your answers in someone else’s posts. If you wish to rebut, then do it here. It is ok to cut and paste.

Did Buddha teach anyone to worship (one) God? I quickly went thought his teachings. 3 Universal Truths, 4 Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold path. Nothing to point to worship of a one true god. Ven. Piyadassi, Thera from Buddha Dharma Education Association wrote this about him:

he was a human being having no connection whatsoever with a God or any other “supernatural” being. He was neither God nor an incarnation of God, nor a prophet, nor any mythological figure. He was a man, but an extraordinary man (acchariya manussa), a unique being, a man par excellence (purisuttama).

This is at odds of what you claim for Buddha. You have usurped the teachings of another religion.

 

[ericc]

The only authentic teaching about these Founders of religion is from God, as revealed by Baha’u’llah.

My question is who is Bahaullah to claim that he is a valid manifestation of god. Himself? Then he need to act like one. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons etc. The last thing anyone expect is a god usurping power from his brother or getting rid of those that disagree with him. Same goes with Bab. Since Bab failed to establish himself as a genuine god manifest, all subsequent lines after him is also tainted by the invalidity.

At some point, you will have to realize that Bahaullah is just a mere mortal who had an opportunity to elevate himself. I am sorry but that is the blunt truth.

And so have the Jews it seems:

Exodus 33:20 “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

…and yet Jesus comes, shows His face and Jesus is God and we all live!

My religion nor Judaism is the topic here.

You seem to misunderstand that it is not a religion or an institution, or a company of men that is stating these things, it is God.

If you were standing face to face with God, and you had ZERO doubt that it was God, and He told you these things, you would not question…not a hairbreadth of doubt.

First we must know he is God, in nature , in spirit as well as in act. None of that in proven in Bahaullah. It is self-claimed.

We do not totally deny the possible physical touching of a body by Thomas (He never touched Jesus anyway) but what we are asserting is that the SPIRITUAL aspect is more important than the PHYSICAL aspect, which Paul also asserted.

You are welcome to take it up with St. Paul. The Baha’i Faith fully endorses St. Paul’s teachings on resurrection.

I already established the fact that Bahais do not believe in the physical resurrection of of the man Christ. Which mean that you are insinuating that Jesus lied about his bodily resurrection. Whether Thomas touched or not is immaterial. Point is, Jesus offered.

There is nothing about St Paul that you can tell me from a religion that is barely 200 years old. Unless he manifested to you and told you secret things that is not in the Bible. He is a proponent of the risen Christ BTW. In his words “risen from the dead” which you vehemently oppose.

We are sometimes unable to answer the plethora of questions. It is not that we are unable to do so because the Faith is imperfect, it is open to all the scrutiny you wish to place upon it. The failure is in our TIME to answer every single question.

There were no real answers yet. But you did take the time to attempt to introduce other non-relevant topics.

Baha’u’llah has revealed that just because a Manifestation of God did not claim something or did not do something does not imply that they were not able to do it, or were not of that station.
If a physics teacher teaches physics in school, it does not mean that they are not an expert in all aspects of science.

That is not the topic we are arguing. We are not arguing whether he has hidden unproven capabilities or not. One could be bluffing.

So Abraham and Moses were Manifestations of God, even though they never claimed to be so. The Baha’i Faith endorses, however that the effulgence of Divinity shed upon mankind by Jesus was greater than Moses.

Irrelevant. You can claim Abraham and Moses were Tom and Jerry manifestations too. By the same logic, because the Bible didn’t say Abraham and Moses were not Tom and Jerry, therefore they are Tom and Jerry manifested/reincarnated??

This is why I brought up John the Baptist. He never claimed to be Elijah, but Jesus said that He effectively was, just as Moses never claimed to be a Manifestation of God, even though Baha’u’llah said that He effectively was.

Irrelevant. The topic of Abraham and Moses stands on its own. The results of other situations do not have a causal relationship. That is a form of fallacious reasoning too.

Bahaullah is not proven to be god manifested. It is a self-claim. So what he says about anyone else is just his own personal opinions.

I said what I said because it shows a turning a blind eye on your own Scriptures which I have pointed out to you in this post. Frankly, I expect more wholistic appreciation of Biblical concepts from Catholics

You can start another thread on holistic discussion of Christian scriptures. There are persons more knowledgeable about Scriptures than me. I assure you no one is turning a blind eye.

This thread was created to focus on Bahai claims and questions, not Christian. So here I am, asking you Bahai related questions. I am just slowly going through those old books written on Bahai history asking you to verify or explain them. Slowly going through Bahai claims about other religions. So far, how many of those religions agree with your take on them? You don’t have many remaining left. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism disagree with you.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

From 12 disciples it took a while before Christianity spread and was accepted in both east and west. 2,000 yrs vs 170.

Then, IF you are learned in the Bahai Teachings you will see country after country adopt Bahai laws and teachings DAILY, the source unknown to them yet.

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah brought about world communications and current technology.

God says ‘Be’ and it is. Baha’u’llah said ‘The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’ and then the technology was born not before. Internet. International travel,and communications. All from these Words of Baha’u’llah.

You will find EVERYTHING Baha’u’llah has abrogated is dying out or in the process of declining or being opposed by humanity and EVERYTHING He teaches being promoted as cutting edge and gaining ascendancy.

There are so, so, so many examples of how Bahaullah has changed this world that it’s impossible to convey all of them to you.

Baha’u’llah abolished Holy War. Humanity is opposed to it. It will disappear because it has been decreed. Baha’u’llah decreed the equality of men and women. That was before any modern day feminist. Look around you. How much importance is the status of women gaining worldwide???

Interfaith. It began from a verse in the Most Holy Book in the 1870’s. I remember we were the only ones doing interfaith. Now google it. Pages and pages of interfaith all started by Baha’u’llah’s command for religions to mingle.

Deut18:21-22

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the L ORD ?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the L ORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the L ORD has not spoken. n

Why abolish Holy war? If one cannot fight for what is Holy what should one fight for? The peace and security of western countries is dependant on the wars that it fights, the counter terrorism agencies and divisions within government. A bahai government would then be a repudiation of what Moses did, what the Israelites did and especially what Muhammad and the Muslims did and continue to do today.

As for everything Ali Nuri abrogating being on the decline that’s not exactly true. War is still a reality and potentially becomes a reality we in the protected west will need to wake up to. Alcohol is something prohibited in your religion, yet when prohibition was tried in the United states the people revolted, crime and illegality sky rocketed.

Islamic extremism has not subsided but is on a steady and significant increase. No doubt your prophet spoke against that right? Isis has been able to attract thousands of people from places all over the world to give up their wealth and fight for the cause of Jihad, something Al-Qa’ida wasn’t able to accomplish.

But this only goes to show that you are being selective in bringing up examples of a grand unified humanity or a humanity moving ever closer towards humanity. There are many different dimensions we could bring up. Consider the elections in America at the moment and the division that exists within both parties. The communism of Bernie Sanders against Hillary Clinton, that election is making many angry. The republican side is making people even more angry with the Populism of Trump and the Conservatism of Ted Cruz all in reaction to the republican establishment.

We can look at religion then last. Ali Nuri has accomplished virtually nothing here in appealing to sincere people of faith, that is actual Christians or Jews who believe in their religion. You are not going to be able to convert them. Here is the question then, what do you do with these people? Their very existence is the antithesis to what the Bahai faith stands for, a united World, do you then wait for them to do die out? Because that likely will not happen, especially in the case of Christianity and Judaism.

And if any unifying aspect of the world is atributable to Ali Nuri, should we say he is behind the existence of a gaming company like Nintendo? After all their games are played by millions of people with different backgrounds and experiences (including myself), therefore is Nintendo a direct result of Ali Nuri? That’s the problem with attributing all unity to Ali Nuri, you then have to attribute the absurd to him as well. The ideas of Ali Nuri did not spring from him alone but were part of the wider discussion that was happening in the 1800s.

Slavery was abolished by the English in 1833. Ali Nuri was a boy of 16. Was it his mere presence that outlawed slavery? Were English intellectuals looking at his school boy essays and saying “we gotta do something about slavery!” That’s absurd since we know one of the key influences for getting rid of slavery was the abolitionist movement headed by Christians.

All these claims about Bahai being the innovator of all that is good in the world simply do not fit the narrative you are spouting and can be explained more reasonably in other ways.