Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

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One way the Baha’is are building a new spiritual civilisation is through universal spiritual education courses available to all humanity for free.

The purpose is to teach the love of God and all humanity as well as things like prayer and meditation and reflection. It’s participative not a sermon but consultative where all take part.

They include morals and virtues and other spiritual aspects like truthfulness and not to steal or even tell a small lie even to steal a piece of bread if we are hungry.

An important component is ‘service to humanity’ as being of service to others is seen as religious for Baha’is not just in words alone.

So we have children’s classes, junior youth and adult. There is no degree or pass mark. And there are no special people who run the courses. Any person who has done the sequence of books can become a tutor.

We have many communities where Catholics are involved. They are not Baha’is but we work together to help raise moral decent children for instance as a lot of religious tuition is now banned in schools so some parents still want their children to be taught to pray and grow up virtuous and believe in God.

Then there’s junior youth who are approaching adolescence when their hormones fire up and they need to have spiritual education to enable them to make virtuous and moral choices in life. I will be tutoring Book 5 - Junior Youth over Skype to 5 people after the fast. It gives youth a vision and tries to educate them that happiness comes from God not things.

This is really unique that in over 360 countries children, youth and adults are all taking part in one universal spiritual education program.

Maybe others can say more as its a core activity that all people join in regardless of their faith.

Frontiers of Learning is a selection of some videos showing Baha’is and their non Bahai friends working together.

Someone told me the other day that they trialled one of these courses in one of the Islands and now the government wants it in other schools so Baha’is have gone there to help.

Instead of drugs or alcohol it’s prayer and service to humanity. Prominent people seeing the change in their previously uncontrollable son or daughter ask for it to be brought to their entire area.

The Baha’is are uniting humanity. And we’re loving every minute of it.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Why abolish Holy war? If one cannot fight for what is Holy what should one fight for? The peace and security of western countries is dependant on the wars that it fights, the counter terrorism agencies and divisions within government. A bahai government would then be a repudiation of what Moses did, what the Israelites did and especially what Muhammad and the Muslims did and continue to do today.

As for everything Ali Nuri abrogating being on the decline that’s not exactly true. War is still a reality and potentially becomes a reality we in the protected west will need to wake up to. Alcohol is something prohibited in your religion, yet when prohibition was tried in the United states the people revolted, crime and illegality sky rocketed.

Islamic extremism has not subsided but is on a steady and significant increase. No doubt your prophet spoke against that right? Isis has been able to attract thousands of people from places all over the world to give up their wealth and fight for the cause of Jihad, something Al-Qa’ida wasn’t able to accomplish.

But this only goes to show that you are being selective in bringing up examples of a grand unified humanity or a humanity moving ever closer towards humanity. There are many different dimensions we could bring up. Consider the elections in America at the moment and the division that exists within both parties. The communism of Bernie Sanders against Hillary Clinton, that election is making many angry. The republican side is making people even more angry with the Populism of Trump and the Conservatism of Ted Cruz all in reaction to the republican establishment.

We can look at religion then last. Ali Nuri has accomplished virtually nothing here in appealing to sincere people of faith, that is actual Christians or Jews who believe in their religion. You are not going to be able to convert them. Here is the question then, what do you do with these people? Their very existence is the antithesis to what the Bahai faith stands for, a united World, do you then wait for them to do die out? Because that likely will not happen, especially in the case of Christianity and Judaism.

And if any unifying aspect of the world is atributable to Ali Nuri, should we say he is behind the existence of a gaming company like Nintendo? After all their games are played by millions of people with different backgrounds and experiences (including myself), therefore is Nintendo a direct result of Ali Nuri? That’s the problem with attributing all unity to Ali Nuri, you then have to attribute the absurd to him as well. The ideas of Ali Nuri did not spring from him alone but were part of the wider discussion that was happening in the 1800s.

Slavery was abolished by the English in 1833. Ali Nuri was a boy of 16. Was it his mere presence that outlawed slavery? Were English intellectuals looking at his school boy essays and saying “we gotta do something about slavery!” That’s absurd since we know one of the key influences for getting rid of slavery was the abolitionist movement headed by Christians.

All these claims about Bahai being the innovator of all that is good in the world simply do not fit the narrative you are spouting and can be explained more reasonably in other ways.
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It’s early days. I’m willing to accept criticism for now because the Hand of God guides the Baha’is and you yourself will witness many wonders perhaps feeling somewhat dismal. So please I want you to keep scrutinising . I enjoy it knowing what a beautiful world we’re building for you as a gift from Baha’u’llah.

Holy War being abolished is not the same as defending against an aggressor which Baha’u’llah supports fully. There is a difference between a Holy War fought out of hatred and a just war to rescue people from oppression and tyranny or defending one’s country against aggression. Have you spread anything about us? You would know that we’re not pacifists if you had read anything.

The status of women? As for politics. We are told that while we build a new order the old one is crumbling filled with corruption and cannot be saved. So we are busy building the Kingdom of God on earth while others wreck their defective system based on consumerism and greed.

The ‘world view’ has penetrated everywhere. On the Internet, tv, games multi player, all sorts of things. International conferences of scientists , religions etc. the spirit of Baha’u’llah’s new age leaves out no one.

How can you say Baha’u’llah’s teachings have had no impact when only a century and a half ago the world was an entirely different world to now. This is the new earth and the new heaven, the spiritualisation of the world is coming in time. But we can contact each other across the globe in milliseconds. That is proof enough that Baha’u’llah’s call for world unity had an effect on all existance.

Baha’u’llah was the first Manifestation of God to formally abolish slavery but even in His time slaves still existed and had not been given their freedom.

Here is an article about Baha’u’llah’s prayer about slavery about the time it was being abolished. You cannot claim 1833 as if every, slave was set free then nor the belief that slavery was wrong had been firmly established. But we can say that Baha’u’llah’s clear abolishment of it gave impetus to its full removal from humanity.

bahaiteachings.org/the-bahai-prayer-that-freed-the-slaves

Much much more please try the spirits and test Baha’u’llah more. Women. The status of women you overlooked. Do you know who Tahirih was?
 
MartinJordan said:
…there’s more why stop?

MJ
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Cor 1:4-5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

The motives of the heart. People who don’t want unity and love will be against Baha’u’llah. People who want peace and love and unity on earth like Jesus taught will have the same motives as Baha’u’llah and embrace Him with warm welcome.
 
worldcitizen said:
Cor 1:4-5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
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And?

Worldcitizen make more effort.

Continue please.
The motives of the heart. People who don’t want unity and love will be against Baha’u’llah. People who want peace and love and unity on earth like Jesus taught will have the same motives as Baha’u’llah and embrace Him with warm welcome.
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Who doesn’t want unity? Please clear this up.

MJ
 
John Paul II: "By her relationship with Christ, the Church is a kind of sacrament or sign and means of intimate union with God, and of the unity of all mankind"34, and the source of this is he, he himself, he the Redeemer.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
And?

Worldcitizen make more effort.

Continue please.

Who doesn’t want unity? Please clear this up.

MJ
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The churches don’t want unity between themselves. Otherwise why not one religion under Christ?

The verse I quoted clearly says God will judge us on that Day which is now and we shall receive our just rewards that’s all. Not to judge each other or exalt one of the other but that’s not how it’s been over the centuries. Christianity has had wars amongst themselves splitting into sects and now the judgement day has come and it’s not one fold and one Shephered but many folds and many shepherds and it cannot unite humanity as it can’t unite itself.

And that is its reward. It is not given the blessing of uniting humanity because it did not love each other and keep unity between themselves. Doctrine should never have split Christianity. Their love for Jesus should have been strong enough to keep them together but it wasn’t and now a divided Christianity cannot unite the world.

That’s unfortunately the situation on the ground.** If you cannot unite yourselves how are you going to unite the world???**
 
worldcitizen said:
The churches don’t want unity between themselves. Otherwise why not one religion under Christ?

The verse I quoted clearly says God will judge us on that Day which is now and we shall receive our just rewards that’s all. Not to judge each other or exalt one of the other but that’s not how it’s been over the centuries. Christianity has had wars amongst themselves splitting into sects and now the judgement day has come and it’s not one fold and one Shephered but many folds and many shepherds and it cannot unite humanity as it can’t unite itself.

And that is its reward. It is not given the blessing of uniting humanity because it did not love each other and keep unity between themselves. Doctrine should never have split Christianity. Their love for Jesus should have been strong enough to keep them together but it wasn’t and now a divided Christianity cannot unite the world.

That’s unfortunately the situation on the ground.** If you cannot unite yourselves how are you going to unite the world???**
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The reason Christianity is split is due partly to false prophets and Martin Luther. If there was no Joseph smith, muhammad etc etc it would be in tact.
 
arthra said:
Baha’u’llah never stated Krishna “…existed as a god”.

Abdul-Baha mentioned Krishna as a Manifestation of God in the following

An Indian said to 'Abdu’l-Bahá:

“My aim in life is to transmit as far as in me lies the message of Krishna to the world.”

9.1
Abdu’l-Bahá said:

*The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God’s prophets have brought the message of love. None has ever thought that war and hate are good. Every one agrees in saying that love and kindness are best.
*
(Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 35)

*Blessed souls – whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius or Muhammad – were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity.
*
(Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 342)

Note above it is the “message of love” mentioned by Abdul-Baha. The message of “love” is called “Bhakti”…devotion. In the teachings attributed to Krishna you will find such teachings…

Edwin Arnold translated the following verses into English well over a hundred years ago:

*Whoever serve Me- as I show Myself-
Constantly true, in full devotion fixed,
Those hold I very holy. But who serve-
Worshipping Me The One, The Invisible,
The Unrevealed, Unnamed, Unthinkable,
Uttermost, All-pervading, Highest, Sure-
Who thus adore Me, mastering their sense,
Of one set mind to all, glad in all good,
These blessed souls come unto Me.
*
( Bhagavad Gita, Chapter XII (Edwin Arnold tr))

One thing I discovered when I was a teen reading a translation of the Bhagavad Gita was the similarity it had to some of the verses found in the Gospel of John

*15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
I would also recommend a book “The Vedic Experience, An Anthology of the Vedas for Modern Man and Contemporary Celebration”" by Raimundo Panikkar was a Roman Catholic Priest and a Professor of Religious Studies at the University of California Santa Barbara. He passed away in 2010 but you can read more about him at

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raimon_Panikkar

We as Baha’is are unsure of some of authenticity of some of these scriptures but we can acknowledge the teaching of love and “Bhakti”.

also I would direct your attention to the “Lotus Temple” in New Delhi which is a modern focal point of peoples for prayer and meditation.
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This really doesn’t prove anything.
What I don’t understand is why does Baha’u’llah claim to be Krishna as a “manifestation of god” when you claim “baha’is are unsure of some of authenticity of some of these scriptures”
 
worldcitizen said:
From 12 disciples it took a while before Christianity spread and was accepted in both east and west. 2,000 yrs vs 170.

Then, IF you are learned in the Bahai Teachings you will see country after country adopt Bahai laws and teachings DAILY, the source unknown to them yet.

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah brought about world communications and current technology.

God says ‘Be’ and it is. Baha’u’llah said ‘The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’ and then the technology was born not before. Internet. International travel,and communications. All from these Words of Baha’u’llah.

You will find EVERYTHING Baha’u’llah has abrogated is dying out or in the process of declining or being opposed by humanity and EVERYTHING He teaches being promoted as cutting edge and gaining ascendancy.

There are so, so, so many examples of how Bahaullah has changed this world that it’s impossible to convey all of them to you.

Baha’u’llah abolished Holy War. Humanity is opposed to it. It will disappear because it has been decreed. Baha’u’llah decreed the equality of men and women. That was before any modern day feminist. Look around you. How much importance is the status of women gaining worldwide???

Interfaith. It began from a verse in the Most Holy Book in the 1870’s. I remember we were the only ones doing interfaith. Now google it. Pages and pages of interfaith all started by Baha’u’llah’s command for religions to mingle.

Deut18:21-22

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the L ORD ?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the L ORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the L ORD has not spoken. n
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2000 years vs 170. Christianity was at a time when there was NO technology. So comparing the two in that sense is weak
 
JimmyDFG said:
2000 years vs 170. Christianity was at a time when there was NO technology. So comparing the two in that sense is weak
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But Christianity is one religion after 2,000 years? If you all loved Christ you would have put aside your differences and remained one Faith.

Humanity wants unity and love and requires an example to follow but which sect of the thousands represents Christianity?

Christ and His disciples were one Christianity. So why split up over doctrines? And authority and forgetting Jesus is your Master not temporal power or doctrine?

Christianity forfeited the opportunity to be the one fold and one shephered Christ foretold and instead ended up as many folds with many shepherds so God replaced you with another people who are now that one fold and will bring peace and unity and the Kingdom of God on earth. You had your chance but failed due to petty squabbles so now it’s for the Baha’is to do what was originally your duty but which sadly you cannot do. How can you unite the world when you cannot unite yourselves?
 
Let us all be one. All men! There is no need for division. The churches must unite as they are brothers in Christ!

“The day is coming when all the religions of the world will unite, for in principle they are one already. There is no need for division, seeing that it is only the outward forms that separate them. Among the sons of men some souls are suffering through ignorance, let us hasten to teach them; others are like children needing care and education until they are grown, and some are sick—to these we must carry Divine healing.

Whether ignorant, childish or sick, they must be loved and helped, and not disliked because of their imperfection.

Doctors of religion were instituted to bring spiritual healing to the peoples and to be the cause of unity among the nations. If they become the cause of division they had better not exist! A remedy is given to cure a disease, but if it only succeeds in aggravating the complaint, it is better to leave it alone. If religion is only to be a cause of disunion it had better not exist.

All the Divine Manifestations sent by God into the world would have gone through their terrible hardships and sufferings for the single hope of spreading Truth, unity and concord among men. “Christ endured a life of sorrow, pain and grief, to bring a perfect example of love into the world—and in spite of this we continue to act in a contrary spirit one towards the other!

Love is the fundamental principle of God’s purpose for man, and He has commanded us to love each other even as He loves us”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Paris Talks.”
 
worldcitizen said:
Someone told me the other day that they trialled one of these courses in one of the Islands and now the government wants it in other schools so Baha’is have gone there to help.

The Baha’is are uniting humanity. And we’re loving every minute of it.
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Dear David - This has also happened in the Solomon Islands 👍

The island is Malaita and it is now on Fire in many parts. My guess it will not be long before it spreads to the remainder of the Islands.

There are also small Pockets now blazing in Honiara, this country will be on fire soon!

The source of all this Fire in the Solomon Islands, the Love and sacrifice of our fellow believers in Iran. God bless them and all of humanity.

Regards Tony
 
JimmyDFG said:
2000 years vs 170. Christianity was at a time when there was NO technology. So comparing the two in that sense is weak
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You just gave proof to one of the Signs of the new Revelation, this knowledge explosion was brought about by the new Revelation. The old world was rolled up a new one rolls out in its stead.

It has been said before and it is more than a coincidence that the Communication explosion started with the Declaration of the Bab at 2hrs ans 11 minutes after sunset on May the 23rd 1844.

That same day saw the birth of Abul’baha and in the west just as lightening flashes from the East to the West, the first telegraph message was sent paving the way to our modern communications. The message chosen from the book of Numbers
“WHAT HAS GOD WROUGHT”****

Coincidence? :extrahappy: americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html

The weakness is all of our making.

God bless all Regards Tony
 
Jesus Christ said He would raise His physical body from the grave. the bahai say Jesus was wrong. they say the grave was not empty the morning of the first day of the week.

this is about as fundamental of a difference as there is.

Jesus Christ taught us that there were Three Persons in the One God. the bahai teach that this is not true. this, also is a huge difference between christianity and bahaism.

Jesus Christ taught us that He is the ONLY Son the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, true God and true man. the bahai say Jesus is wrong, he is a man no different from bahaullah or mohammed or the buddha. once again, an enormous difference between the teachings of Jesus, the God-man, and bahaullah, who alleged he was special as a manifestation of God.

Jesus promised that our bodies we would also be raised, individually, from the dead; and, that His followers would experience perfection and eternal joy in heaven in perfect unity with the Triune God. the bahai do not have this doctrine. a difference between christianity and bahaism that cannot be overestimated.

these are a few comparisons between the teachings of Jesus Christ and the teachings of bahaullah. there are many others.

christians see it as complete foolishness for a man to reject the promise of the bodily resurrection and the gift of eternal and perfect life with God.

as i said the differences between the teachings of Jesus Christ and bahaullah cannot be reconciled to each other. there is an infinite and impassable chasm between them.

finally, God did not create or cause this impassable chasm. the ones who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ create it.
 
there are areas where bahaullah followed the teachings of Jesus.

for example, bahaullah, as did Jesus, put love at the forefront of life in this world.

bahaullah, like Jesus, taught His followers a prescribed order although that order is different from the order prescribed by Jesus.

the bahai who post here have cited other areas where the teachings of bahaullah follow Jesus.

not being fully cognizant with the teachings of bahaullah, and i do not feel like the lone ranger in this regard since bahaullah’s writings fill tens of thousands of pages and no one has done a scholarly analysis of them all especially in regards to what doctrines they contain and whether or not they are all internally consistent, i accept that bahaullah many have accepted some of what Jesus taught.
 
TonyBS said:
You just gave proof to one of the Signs of the new Revelation, this knowledge explosion was brought about by the new Revelation. The old world was rolled up a new one rolls out in its stead.

It has been said before and it is more than a coincidence that the Communication explosion started with the Declaration of the Bab at 2hrs ans 11 minutes after sunset on May the 23rd 1844.

That same day saw the birth of Abul’baha and in the west just as lightening flashes from the East to the West, the first telegraph message was sent paving the way to our modern communications. The message chosen from the book of Numbers
“WHAT HAS GOD WROUGHT”****

Coincidence? :extrahappy: americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html

The weakness is all of our making.

God bless all Regards Tony
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You want more proof anyone just see what God said to Job that He can do and now we know He DID do through Samuel Morse announcing the Bab.

**JOB38.35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
**
 
eddie_too said:
there are areas where bahaullah followed the teachings of Jesus.

for example, bahaullah, as did Jesus, put love at the forefront of life in this world.

bahaullah, like Jesus, taught His followers a prescribed order although that order is different from the order prescribed by Jesus.

the bahai who post here have cited other areas where the teachings of bahaullah follow Jesus.

not being fully cognizant with the teachings of bahaullah, and i do not feel like the lone ranger in this regard since bahaullah’s writings fill tens of thousands of pages and no one has done a scholarly analysis of them all especially in regards to what doctrines they contain and whether or not they are all internally consistent, i accept that bahaullah many have accepted some of what Jesus taught.
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Dear Eddie this is Love - Thank you

Regards Tony
 
worldcitizen said:
How can you say Baha’u’llah’s teachings have had no impact when only a century and a half ago the world was an entirely different world to now. This is the new earth and the new heaven, the spiritualisation of the world is coming in time. But we can contact each other across the globe in milliseconds. That is proof enough that Baha’u’llah’s call for world unity had an effect on all existance.

Baha’u’llah was the first Manifestation of God to formally abolish slavery but even in His time slaves still existed and had not been given their freedom.

Here is an article about Baha’u’llah’s prayer about slavery about the time it was being abolished. You cannot claim 1833 as if every, slave was set free then nor the belief that slavery was wrong had been firmly established. But we can say that Baha’u’llah’s clear abolishment of it gave impetus to its full removal from humanity.

bahaiteachings.org/the-bahai-prayer-that-freed-the-slaves

Much much more please try the spirits and test Baha’u’llah more. Women. The status of women you overlooked. Do you know who Tahirih was?
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Show me the direct historical causation between the development of the internet and instance communication and Ali Nuri. Demonstrate this.
 
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